RoR: Forum

Post 0

Saturday, May 10 - 5:01pm

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"He had full access to everything—the White House, the National Cathedral, everything," said CIA director Michael Hayden, who reportedly has already tendered his resignation over the massive security failure. "By carrying out this espionage under the subterfuge of a goodwill mission of Christian charity, the pope was able to gain access to sensitive information never before obtained by a hostile foreign power. The president himself shook his hand, prayed with him." The Onion, May 8, 2008

Post 1

Saturday, May 10 - 5:22pm

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LOL!

Ted, you a crazy man.

Post 2

Saturday, May 10 - 5:56pm

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Quis Custos Custodiet?

Just what, Teresa, is so funny about the leader of the world's largest unitary religious sect, with over one billion adherents, having access to the highest echelons on the US government, social venues, Yankee Stadium, and areas of vital national interest?

Look at all those self-sacrificial minions!

(Edited by Ted Keer on 5/10, 7:22pm)

Post 3

Saturday, May 10 - 7:15pm

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Political satirists do the watching (thank Galt.)

I love that I live somewhere that embraces satirical genius like The Onion.

Post 4

Saturday, May 10 - 7:25pm

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PS Laure, please read the fine print before jumping to any conclusions.

Post 5

Sunday, May 11 - 4:06am

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Ah, so that is what happened to Lex Luthor's first incarnation of Nuclear Man in the scrapped footage of Superman IV!

Post 6

Sunday, May 11 - 4:09am

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Post 7

Sunday, May 11 - 7:25am

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The physical similarity isn't the only one. Michael Emerson has played several psychopathic killers on TV with chilling reality.

Sam

Post 8

Sunday, May 11 - 12:34pm

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Caveat Papam, et Dona Ferentes?

Really, now, Michael, shouldn't you have started a new thread to make your comments?

As for Catholicism being a danger, the question is, a danger to whom?

If we are going to quote Ford Hall Forum speeches, can anyone find out exactly what it is Rand said about Reagan? Something about how since he was against abortion, that was all she needed to know about him, and he was obviously unqualified to be president? Had she only lived until 1989! She would have seen the tragedy of Soviet world hegemony and would have read the Supreme Court's famous "Barefoot and Pregnant vs Broads" case made possible by Reagan's placement of three Catholic Bishops on the high court.

And anyone who's listened to Peikoff's DIM lectures knows who the three A's are.

In all fairness, Michael, I will grant you that much of the Catholic Church's mystical doctrines and rulings on sexuality are anathema to the rational egoist. The glories of the Church are best viewed from afar, just like those of the pagan Classic era, Who would want to smell the blood of the arena just to hear the speeches of Cicero? Or put up with the Athenian tradition of ostracism in order to enjoy the tradition of free speech?

But if you really want to research the matter, of all the sects of Christianity, Catholicism is the least repugnant. Remember that protestantism's first innovation was biblical inerrancy, and its second was Calvin's predestinationism. (Can anyone say "conservative white Christian"?) So far as it stands, in relation to all the other sects, Catholicism is the voice of reason. And if you doubt Rand's debt to Catholic philosophy, read Cardinal Desire Mercier's Manual of Scholastic Philosophy. Remove from his writings any reference to revelation and you get as close to Objectivism as any school ever. Isabel Paterson knew this. Rand did too, she just felt uncomfortable expressing it, hence the expunging of Father Amadeus.

In nomine rationis, et gaudiae, et mundi sancti, amen.

Post 9

Sunday, May 11 - 2:20pm

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But if you really want to research the matter, of all the sects of Christianity, Catholicism is the least repugnant. Remember that protestantism's first innovation was biblical inerrancy, and its second was Calvin's predestinationism. (Can anyone say "conservative white Christian"?) So far as it stands, in relation to all the other sects, Catholicism is the voice of reason.

Unfortunately, that so-called "voice of reason," based on Aristotle's legacy (via the Scholastics), gives a veneer of rational respectability to the most obscene, anti-life doctrines in the Christian tradition (e.g., its opposition to birth control, not shared by the other Christian sects, and its militant opposition to abortion and to embryonic stem-cell research, also not shared by a good many non-Catholic Christians.

Then there is Catholicism's well-deserved reputation for engaging in draconian corporal punishment of school children, which was not shared (at least not to the same degree) by non-Catholic schools.

And if you doubt Rand's debt to Catholic philosophy, read Cardinal Desire Mercier's Manual of Scholastic Philosophy. Remove from his writings any reference to revelation and you get as close to Objectivism as any school ever. Isabel Paterson knew this. Rand did too, she just felt uncomfortable expressing it, hence the expunging of Father Amadeus.

Nonsense! The Pontiff's latest pronouncements coming just two months ago should put that lie to rest: “Those who trust in themselves and in their own merits are, as it were, blinded by their own ‘I’, and their hearts harden in sin. Those who recognise themselves as weak and sinful entrust themselves to God, and from Him obtain grace and forgiveness.” Pro-self -- pro-pride -- pro-Objectivist? Give me a break!

The Pope also said that hedonism and consumerism had even invaded “the bosom of the Church itself, deeply undermining the Christian faith from within, and undermining the lifestyle and daily behaviour of believers." Pro-capitalist -- pro-material self-interest? I don't think so!

Catholicism without the revelation is close to Objectivism? Come on, Ted, you know better than that!

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer on 5/11, 2:27pm)

Post 10

Sunday, May 11 - 5:07pm

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To Whom it May Concern

First, Bill, this entire thread is a lark, in case you didn't follow the originating link. You and Michael should do so, if you haven't.

Second, to be more exact, Objectivism is a form of Scholastic philosophy without the revelation, and I do know better. BTW, Mercier's Manual was published in 1899. Have you read it? It repudiates materialism, idealism, skepticism, Kant, positivism, socialism and supports Aristotelianism, Classical Liberalism and Capitalism. It even supports egoism, albeit not what we would call fully rational egoism. It does assert that a virtuous non-believer can be happy in this life, just not ultimately quite so happy as a Christian in eternity.

Talking about corporal punishment in Catholic Schools is about as relevant to Scholastic philosophy and Rand's debt to it (and to Aquinas and the Jesuits) as talking about Rand's love affair with Branden is to the validity of Leonard Peikoff's pronunciations on the 2006 midterm election. Ne'er the twain shall meet.

There's no point in all this bile spewing. My claims are not so outrageous if you re-read them without a jaundiced prejudice. They are well qualified. Your personal anger at certain nuns and clerics, no matter how obviously justified towards them, is certainly not an objective analysis of Mercier's non-theological work. Do you not agree?

In the end, Scholastic philosophy does not equal the sins of all Catholics through history, just as Objectivism does not equal Rand's views on smoking, homosexuality, or women presidents, or the childish and cultish schismatic behavior and ostracism that rends the Objectivist world every few years.

Ted

Post 11

Sunday, May 11 - 9:56pm

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(Watch and wait....)

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 5/11, 10:01pm)

Post 12

Monday, May 12 - 2:15pm

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That's the "spirit" Michael, hehehe!

Post 13

Monday, May 12 - 2:45pm

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Ted, I cannot find Desire Mercier's Manual of Scholastic Philosophy at any university library in Michigan. My request has gone out via the nation-wide ILLiad interlibrary loan system.

There is no doubt that every society -- especially our own -- has been torn by unresolved dichotomies. One of my favorite books is Medieval Merchants and Moneymen. Can you imagine being a trader in Italy in the eighth century AD? Think of the conceptual leap to invent "money of account" (pounds-shillings-pence) to resolve bookkeeping with a plethoria of coinages. I am in awe of the conflicts between the "algebrists" and the "abacists" which evolved into open competitions in number theory held in the public square -- men solving cubic equations for money and glory. I have a long-standing project to write about the great medieval fairs.

But... still... as with the Chinese or the Athenians... you have those unresolved contradictions within Catholicism and more to the point, it was Protestantism that made modern capitalism possible. There had always been traders -- even the Aztecs had traders -- but capitalism was new.

Post 14

Monday, May 12 - 2:58pm

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Michael, the book is out of print, but you can often find it on sale at abe.books.com. (A good price would be $30 for the set.) Be aware it is TWO volumes. Much of it is, of course, theological, and much of the philosophy does not use the exact same terminology as Rand. But if you read it generously (i.e., trying to find points of agreement rather than disagreement) you will find many gems among the refuse. Given your wide reading and comments on other heretical works, I know that you are one of the posters here who can do this.

Post 15

Tuesday, May 13 - 10:51am

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For Ted:

:)

-- Brede

Post 16

Tuesday, May 13 - 4:10pm

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Our Established Church

The Catholic Church has adopted the separation of church and state and freedom of religion as its official position, although this was only formalized in the 1960's under Vatican II.

In any case, it is usually politicians such as Henry VIII, Lenin, Constantine and Kim Il Sung (right) who establish state churches in order to justify their tyrannies. Of course, there have been no end of power-seeking clerics and sycophants who have been happy to use that power for their own purposes.

Political Corruption, (oops) I mean Political Correctness is our current established religion. Marxist education majors, social workers, and professional grievance mongers are its shock troops. Lunatic victim-studies professors and other children of Morton Downey Jr. with their hate crime hoaxes provide the necessary miracles. Gore, Moore and Bloomberg are its prophets and high priests. If any domestic religious faith is dangerous, none is presently more dangerous than PC with the power of the gun.

-----

Brede, is he flying?

(Edited by Ted Keer on 5/13, 7:44pm)

Post 17

Tuesday, May 13 - 7:14pm

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Brede, is he flying?

Either that or he's hung, over.....[snort, snort]

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