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Monday, April 11, 2005 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
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The only commentators on this site who write of "moral equivalency" are war hawks who do so in an attempt to disparage the motives and decency of Objectivists and other libertarians who oppose the War in Iraq. Every American military intervention in the twentieth century, and most in the 19th century, were instances of offensive force. Objectivist war hawks prefer to minimize the distinctions between offensive and defensive force, I suspect, because no good arguments exist for the Iraq War that respect this moral distinction. 

To accuse anti-war Objectivists of dictator hugging makes as little sense as would the accusation that supporters of the war are delighted by the fact that perhaps 100,000 innocent helpless Iraqi subjects have lost their lives as a result of this tragedy.

The war is wrong because it violates individual rights. It violates the rights of Americans who are taxed, regulated, and drafted to expedite this invasion/occupation, and who are subjected to heightened risks of terrorist violence. It violates the rights of Iraqis who have been  killed and maimed en masse, and whose property and living conditions have been devastated by American troops harnessed to a non-defensive military adventure.
 
It is good that Hussein is removed from power, but the larger moral context of this mis-adventure is bad. The welfare of every person is intimately bound to respect for individual rights. The welfare of every American depends on maintaining and reinforcing a cultural/philosophical regime of respect for individual rights. As we all understand, the remnants of this respect in the United States have been weakened by the mythology of statism, which holds that to oppose statist collective crusades is to neglect the good, and uphold the wicked. It would seem that many who support this war unwittingly embrace this statist ethos.




Post 1

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Well you know what they say, the best defense is a good offense. And I sure as hell pefer fighting in Europe or Asia then fighting off some invading enemy. If it ever comes to that, we've lost already.

Now it isn't that pro-war people minimize the difference between the two type of war, we just have different definations then you. An offensive war for you is any that sees our country going somewhere and attacking an enemy, I just call that stragety. An offensive war for me is entirely unjustified as it means we were the ones who forced the situiation, not whose hand was forced like in Iraq.

Now I'm not going to accuse you of dictator hugging but I am disappointed that only 100,000 people died in Iraq. I can't help thinking that if only we killed a few thousand more then more terrorists would be dead.

As for the rest of what you said, there is little point in me answering as only an anti-war person would say that. Yes wars are costly, for both sides. And if you don't like a particular war, yes all you're going to see is negatives. Now if you're like me and see this war as the best triumph of indivisual rights since WWII, those negative aspects aren't costs, they're trade-offs for a better result.



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Post 2

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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Wow!

I think I just changed my mind. On second thought, I deeply regret that America violated Saddam Hussein's individual rights.

He sure didn't deserve that.

Poor Saddam...

Let's try to make it up to him, folks. Take up a collection maybe...

Michael





Post 3

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 9:45pmSanction this postReply
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The 100,000 number is a deep pull-out-of-the-ass, but what is absolutely true is that far FAR more innocent Iraqi Muslims, during the aftermath of this war, have been deliberately killed by the Muslim insurgents than by collateral damage.

This is a fact. To suggest that *our* methods are the agressive and murdersome ones is simply seditious.

Alec




Post 4

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
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"Now I'm not going to accuse you of dictator hugging but I am disappointed that only 100,000 people died in Iraq. I can't help thinking that if only we killed a few thousand more then more terrorists would be dead."

Brilliant! Only 6 billion more people and we can be sure *all* terrorists are dead!




Post 5

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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"..what is absolutely true is that far FAR more innocent Iraqi Muslims, during the aftermath of this war, have been deliberately killed by the Muslim insurgents than by collateral damage."

I've never delved into iraqbodycount.org (or perhaps other better sources out there of info on Iraqi civilian death toll) to derive the exact breakdown. Apparently you have done so to enable you to make an absolutely-true proclamation, so please share more info as to your sources and research.




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Post 6

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:58pmSanction this postReply
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That is a known fact among every honest analyst and scholar of this war. Just dissect the news stories: all major civilian deaths are a result of scare bombings -- by insurgents -- or by the stragic move of the insurgents to surround themselves with civilians, such as they did in Falluja and every major battleground. Killing civilians, and using them as battle shields, is the KEY element of their strategy.

And by the way, iraqbodycount.org -- an antiwar website -- lists the maximum civilian casualties at 17,900. Take that 100,000 number and shove it right back up Ward Churchill's ass, which is where you got it from.

Alec

(Edited by Alec Mouhibian on 4/11, 10:59pm)




Post 7

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 11:52pmSanction this postReply
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"That is a known fact among every honest analyst and scholar of this war. Just dissect the news stories: all major civilian deaths are a result of scare bombings -- by insurgents.."

Watching a small sampling of news stories and inferring overall #s is akin to how one study came up with a 100K body count - take a small questionable sample set and extrapolate by orders of magnitude. I'd hoped your bold declarations indicated something a little more precise and exhaustive, especially since you seem to view that small-sample + extrapolation metholodogy as producing results from some very unpleasant recesses.

"And by the way, iraqbodycount.org -- an antiwar website -- lists the maximum civilian casualties at 17,900."

I thought it was only 15K, guess I'm behind the times.




Post 8

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 12:37amSanction this postReply
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Aaron, you are admitting complete ignorance of the situation. Go through the largest sample you want. You wouldn't need to, if you actually kept up with the news as it happened, and not as ISIL has directed your mind. Since you haven't, however, you should do it. I'd also recommend taking a course on national security and military history. 

But, if you wish to defy all the facts and 100% consesus conclusions among all non-Chomskyite scholars and analysts of this war because you *want* to believe that America is the bad guy -- it's your right to do so.

Alec 

P.S. The 17K number is the "maximum possible" estimate by that antiwar site. Of course, you wouldn't mind if your fellow Saddamites cited 10 million.




Post 9

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 2:52amSanction this postReply
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Aaron has it right. The 100,000 number first appeared in an article in the British medical journal, Lancet. Close examinations of the study's methodology revealed their sampling (basically, asking civilians if any family members or friends had been killed) was heavily biased toward high risk areas like Fallujah and other Sunni Triangle cities, and undersampled the parts of Iraq that have remained relatively peaceful.



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Post 10

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 3:50amSanction this postReply
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Every American military intervention in the twentieth century, and most in the 19th century, were instances of offensive force. 
This is utterly repugnant.

In the 20th Century the US helped to save the world - and itself- from fascism and communism, the two most blatantly evil systems of government in the entire history of man.  Far from offering criticisms, we should be getting down on our knees and thanking the US (and all the other allies) for their intervention.




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Post 11

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 5:44amSanction this postReply
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Hassan Ali al-Majid (Saddams cousin) is beleived to have killed on Saddams orders, 150,000 plus prior to the war, though he denies this vehemently, huffing that it was "no more than 100,000"). Please lets not begin to compare bodycounts. What the scumbag did to his own people, and the kurds, pales when compared to *any* collatoral damage.

John



Post 12

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 6:21amSanction this postReply
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Well, the question is the why there are insurgents now and not when Saddam (who was also secular and not best friend with Islamists) ruled the country?

It is given that the US caused casualties aren't that much compared with the on-going violence after the invasion.

However, I think there are still numberous kinds of insurgents, who only can act that freely and even gain support in some regions, because the US military still occupies Iraq. This state has no sovereign government (the laws are still in the hands of the US military, because the administration needs a nod by the US "higher" administration) and while Shiites and Kurds have agreed to govern the country together, the Sunnits aren't happy about that fact.
I think the united country Iraq is going to fall apart sooner or later, because the differences between all three major movements (Kurds, Shiites, Sunnits) are too strong to be surpresssed.
So, the US (despite having accidentially fought a war for the good of liberty on the pretense of truth through lying to everyone) is no longer needed and should go home, except they want to show that it wasn't liberty, but corporate-warfare that was the reason for the war.

(Given recent reports, the actual economic and social revolution and liberation are taking part without any US influence. They have already passed the critical stage and I think they will continue on their way to freedom and prosperity by their own will and strength.)

BTW:

I still perceive that insulting other people doesn't serve a good climate of civil discussion, except you don't have any arguments but only hatred to serve to the public.

(Edited by Max on 4/12, 6:23am)




Post 13

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 6:36amSanction this postReply
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Well, the question is the why there are insurgents now and not when Saddam (who was also secular and not best friend with Islamists) ruled the country?
There were plenty of insurgents while Saddam was in power.  Saddam did his best to capture and torture and kill them, and their families, to keep them at bay.  Its much easier to maintain civility when you enforce it with the methods that murderous tyrants use. 

Aaron has it right. The 100,000 number first appeared in an article in the British medical journal, Lancet
Right, and the authors were on record as being against the war and they also designed the survery questions and chose the locations the surverys were to take place.  This is not how science is done, that it was published in a scientific journal is absurd.  They also made no distinction between those killed by the US and those killed by insurgents.  The worst part was that they extrapolated the number of killed from 44 families to the entire country of 20 million people to arrive at that 100,000 number.  Even that grossly exaggerated number is still less than the number of people Saddam would have killed had he remained in power.  (5,000 - 10,000 permonth)

Michael F Dickey




Post 14

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 6:43amSanction this postReply
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Alec-

I was the one who said the 100K count was using questionable methodology. All your '10 million', 'Saddamite', 'Chomskyite' rant is irrelevant. I don't know what ISIL is (I'm assuming not Intersil corp, which is what I found), but if it provides a convenient strawman, I'm sure you can adeptly knock it down.

You had a hunch based on news articles you've seen. I've seen dozens to hundreds of Iraq news articles too, and have seen non-zero civilian deaths due to Iraqis and non-zero civilian deaths due to Americans; I wouldn't try extrapolating from my sample to tens of thousands and call it anything more than a hunch though. There's nothing wrong with having a hunch, but say it as such. When you instead proclaim it as "absolute truth", there's an expectation that you possess evidence stronger than insults to support your claim.




Post 15

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 6:57amSanction this postReply
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"Please lets not begin to compare bodycounts. What the scumbag did to his own people, and the kurds, pales when compared to *any* collatoral damage."

And he deserves to die for it. However, the mistake many pro-war people make is using 'he is very evil' as a blanket excuse for committing any evil lesser in magnitude.




Post 16

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 7:09amSanction this postReply
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"Well, the question is the why there are insurgents now and not when Saddam (who was also secular and not best friend with Islamists) ruled the country?"

There was; significant Kurdish and Shi'ite secessionism happened in the 80s and after Iraq War I, and Saddam's violent suppression of them racked up a body count likely in the tens of thousands.





Post 17

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
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"Please lets not begin to compare bodycounts. What the scumbag did to his own people, and the kurds, pales when compared to *any* collatoral damage."

And he deserves to die for it. However, the mistake many pro-war people make is using 'he is very evil' as a blanket excuse for committing any evil lesser in magnitude.
Yet you just said 'he deserves to die' for it.  Who will kill him?  He deserves to die for it, but killing him for doing it is a 'lesser evil'  deposing him of power is a 'lesser evil' then letting him stay in power and continue to murder hundreds of thousands of people? 

There are no degrees of evil, no degrees of right or wrong, just or unjust.  His action was wrong, it was evil.  Ours was not 'less evil', it was right and just.  If a hostage taker starts killing his hostages, it is ethical to intervene and stop him, even if some hostages are killed in the process.  That does not make the swat team evil (even though a lesser evil than the hostage taker and murderer) Saddam took 20 million people hostage, and had been excuting hostages by the 10's of thousands.  We were not evil in stopping him. 

You are using the same tactic you deride pro war hawks for.  They justify their 'lesser evil' by stopping his worse evil (by your claim) yet you justify our lesser evil (letting the killing continue) by our worse evil (stopping the killing and killing others accidently)

By your assesement, pointing a gun at a murderer to stop him is wrong because it is 'less evil' (you are pointing a gun at a human being in a threatening manner)  Handcuffing a thief is wrong because it is 'less evil' (you are confining him, holding him against his will)  In all cases your evil is less than theirs, but it is indeed still evil.  You can not use their 'greater evil' to justify your 'lesser evil' 

Your ethical systems justifies doing absolutely nothing ever to any injustice in the world, even one aimed directly at you.  It is amazingly convenient excuse for inaction yet extraordinarily self desctructive.  Pacifism rewards aggression. 

Michael F Dickey




Post 18

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
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"Yet you just said 'he deserves to die' for it. Who will kill him? He deserves to die for it, but killing him for doing it is a 'lesser evil' deposing him of power is a 'lesser evil' then letting him stay in power and continue to murder hundreds of thousands of people? "

He forfeited his right to life when he murdered; killing him is not evil. Killing thousands of Joe Iraqis is what's evil - then you can get into your body counts and #s and utilitarian arguments about 'less evil'.

"If a hostage taker starts killing his hostages, it is ethical to intervene and stop him, even if some hostages are killed in the process."

SWAT team definition of hostage is someone confined to an area defined by a captor, where the threat of death is immediate and apparent. Hostage situations do exist such as journalists awaiting beheading or teachers and students in a Baslan school; however, you are making the word so broad as to be meaningless when you try to paint an entire city or country as consisting of hostages.

"You are using the same tactic you deride pro war hawks for. They justify their 'lesser evil' by stopping his worse evil (by your claim) yet you justify our lesser evil (letting the killing continue) by our worse evil (stopping the killing and killing others accidently)"

Justifying taking evil action to try to prevent what in your assessment may result in more evil doesn't work for someone with principled ethics, though it might fly for a pragmatist.

"By your assesement, pointing a gun at a murderer to stop him is wrong because it is 'less evil' (you are pointing a gun at a human being in a threatening manner) Handcuffing a thief is wrong because it is 'less evil' (you are confining him, holding him against his will)"

Strawmen. Once you have violated the rights of others, you've forfeited your own rights - there is no problem in stopping murderers and theives. The problem is in killing their next door neighbor, mailman, and 2nd grade elementary teacher.





Post 19

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Aaron,

I can't repeat everything I just wrote in this new post on another thread, but here's a relevant excerpt:

 One of the most common differences between (many) libertarians and Objectivists is their commitment to entirely differing conceptions of "rights." Many libertarians (especially anarchists) adhere to an intrinsicist (platonic) conception of rights, as being an essential aspect of human nature. By contrast, Objectivists uphold a contextualist view of rights, as being an extension of the ethics of rational self-interest into social situations. By the intrinsicist view, rights are something you just have. By the contextualist view, rights are moral principles you recognize and apply.

These diverging views of rights and their source explain many of the political arguments we see here on SOLO. If you believe "rights" are essences of individuals, something they just have, then there are no circumstances in which they disappear. From this premise, it's a short step for anarchists to reject such vital governmental powers as arrest, subpoena, emergency curfews or roadblocks or health quarantines, and contextual limitations on weapons of self-defense (e. g., outlawing private possession and/or use of machine guns, bombs and tanks in "self-defense"). Anarchists reject even defensive wars, because innocent civilians (who are analogous to "human shields" or hostages held by aggressor nations) will likely be harmed during our defensive efforts. They even reject government itself because, being a final arbiter of force, government necessarily compels compliance and/or participation even of unwilling individuals, and thus allegedly "violates their inherent rights" to refuse participation.

By contrast, Objectivists see such governmental activities as necessary and proper extensions of the morality of rational self-interest into a social framework, which any valid theory of rights must therefore incorporate and accommodate...

Should the concept of "rights" be interpreted within a moral context of rational self-interest? Or is it a kind of Kantian "categorical imperative" -- a metaphysical commandment that shouts "thou shalt not impose force," without regard to any considerations of rational self-interest?

A more profitable debate, then, would not be over Iraq or any other specific policy questions. It ought to be over the more basic questions: What is your definition of "rights," and what do you believe is their ultimate source and justification?
 

If you want to read the whole thing, click here




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