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Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 6:41amSanction this postReply
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All men [should] be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and ... the same [should] in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."- Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779.


Ideally, the US government would fund neither medical research nor education--but given that it does so, its actions must be ruled by reason, not by an effort to promote or enforce the superstitious restrictions of any particular strain of religious mysticism.... Tracinski
 
Drawing a cloak of reason over government funding is irrationality in the extreme.  How can that which is unreasonable in the first place function according to reason, talk about tarting up the pig.
 
There is nothing more deleterious to freedom than a militant atheist who finds religious significance in everything or wants to replace religion with a blind obedience science. 
 
The delusion that Science is forever on solid unimpeachable ground is demonstrably false.  Science, at any point in history that you care mention, has been wrong, often totally wrong.  Science may seek truth, but it is a never ending journey.  Further, anyone naive enough to believe that science is virtue incarnate should read up on the Tuskeegee experiments or the eugenics experiments in NC that we were recently discussing in this forum.  Major eugenics research at Wake Forest University was paid for by a patron whose long history of ties to science had a racial agenda that included a visit to a 1935 Nazi eugenics conference and extensive efforts to overturn key civil-rights legislation.
 
The issues raised by Tracinski  are only apparently religious and appearances can be deceiving.  I am not a creationist but I know enough about them to know that they are not monolithic in their thinking and that their wisest proponents do not reject evolution as it relates to mutation and natural selection.  The greatest distinction between science and creationism is that the latter argues for a special creation in the case of man; respected scientists have believed the same.
 
Nor is reluctance to federally fund stem cell research strictly a 'religious' issue.  It is a human rights issue having to do with the sanctity of life, something in which Rand herself was particularly interested. 
 
Tracinski can defend the Dr. Robert Stadtlers of the world, if he likes, but he might put his intellect to better use by encouraging science to end this debate once and for all by determining when a fetus becomes a human life.  Both Rand and Peikoff acknowledge this is problematical when they say,
 
"One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months", and "This is not to condone the morality of arbitrarily delaying an abortion until the last months of pregnancy — when the fetus is approaching humanness. " 
 
Until the question of when human life begins is answered the debate will never end.






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Post 1

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
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"I am not a creationist but I know enough about them to know that they are not monolithic in their thinking and that their wisest proponents do not reject evolution as it relates to mutation and natural selection. The greatest distinction between science and creationism is that the latter argues for a special creation in the case of man; respected scientists have believed the same."

Well, okay, I think that we can agree that they are monolithic in their thinking to the extent that they believe IN FAIRYTALES about the origin of man. Definition of a creationist. Whether 'respected scientists' believed it is an argument from authority, and is ridiculous. "Respected scientists" can believe whatever they want, just like everyone else. But that doesn't make their guesses and superstitions any more correct that a retarded chimp's guesses and superstituous beliefs.

I am always amazed at how concerned Fundamentalist Christians are about the 'rights' of tissue, but completely ignore the right of living, breathing human beings to make their oown decisions about their own lives, bodies, and health issues. SPin it however you want--for the first time ever, the US will be miles behind other countries in stem cell research. Not because we do not have the talent or acument to lead the field, but because a religious group is imposing its morality on all of its citizens. It is indeed a dark day for the Republic.



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Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Excellent response Mr. DeSalvo.

I wish to add another comment on this:

"Until the question of when human life begins is answered the debate will never end."

This debate can never end. Even if the scientists come up a precise way of determining when a fetus becomes a human life, the religious people can always argue about the 'potential' human life.

Here's a hypothetical question: suppose that the terrorists create a biological weapon to infect every one in the US with some extremely rapid acting version of Alzheimer's (or some other disease). Suppose further that the only way to counter this is through stem cell research. Would federal funding for such a research be justified? What happens to the 'sanctity of life'?

I think Tracinski is being very practical here. Reality is what it is, not what it should or would have been. And our decisions must be based on reality. In this case, reality is that we fund so much for other biomedical research, whether we like it or not.

Sanjay






Post 3

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 11:54amSanction this postReply
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Quoth Scott DeSalvo:

"for the first time ever, the US will be miles behind other countries in stem cell research. Not because we do not have the talent or acument to lead the field, but because a religious group is imposing its morality on all of its citizens."

Horseshit. Stem cell research has not been in any way impeded by the Bush administration's actions. All that's been done is that GOVERNMENT funding for NEW lines of EMBRYONIC stem cells will not be forthcoming. There's no restriction on government funding of non-embryonic stem cell research. There's no restriction on government funding of embryonic stem cell research using existing lines. There's no restriction on the creation of new lines by the private sector or with funding from state governments, several of which are already considering ripping off their own taxpayers to get into that game.

The whole thing is a tempest in a teapot.

The motive may be wrong, but so what? Many alleged Objectivists didn't have a problem with Bush's "because God told me to" war on Iraq. Why should they have a problem with him cutting tax funding to one small part of an area -- medical research -- which shouldn't be getting it anyway, for the same reasons?

Tom Knapp



Post 4

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
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Tom said:
Horseshit. Stem cell research has not been in any way impeded by the Bush administration's actions. All that's been done is that GOVERNMENT funding for NEW lines of EMBRYONIC stem cells will not be forthcoming. There's no restriction on government funding of non-embryonic stem cell research. There's no restriction on government funding of embryonic stem cell research using existing lines. There's no restriction on the creation of new lines by the private sector or with funding from state governments, several of which are already considering ripping off their own taxpayers to get into that game.

Since the federal government in this country is, right or wrong, a major source of funding for research, the fact that there won't be any funds made available for new lines of embryonic stem cells will impede research in this country.  Period.  Get real, Tom.  A lack of interference is not the same as support.

Glenn




Post 5

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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The issue here is with errors of government, not motives.

There are two errors, the second dependent on the first:
1) That government funds science research outside the scope of its necessary functions.
2) That government uses theological criteria in determining areas for research.
Now, everyone wants both errors corrected. But given that's impossible, it is preferable to accept only #1 instead of both #1 and #2.

If the argument is abstracted thus....
"Order the following in terms of preferability"
1) no error
2) error X
3) error X and error Y
....just about everyone will adopt the same order.

Structuring the argument logically clears up one's head. Huffing and puffing on and on about "Science is virtue incarnate" and "'because God told me to' war on Iraq" is what creates tempests in teapots.



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Post 6

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn, how is it impeded?

My god, billions $$ goes into all kinds of research in the US and all that is left is a bunch of politically motivated pseudo-science (Global Warming anyone? Obesity death "epidemic"? Sheesh!).

The people who will benefit the most from stem-cell research and any scientific research will find a way to finance their ideas, they wont waste it, and they wont waste time figuring out more ways to con the the State into sending more science welfare their way.

I suspect there is a good deal of private research in the stem-cell area, but no one hears about it. argh.

The ban is a good thing. Maybe some actual work will get done and all without wasting the taxpayers good money.



Post 7

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn beat me to the punch on the issue of the effect of government funding of research, but I'd also like to add that no Objectivists I know supported the war in Iraq on the basis of God; no Objectivists I know agree with the precisely stated reasons Bush gave for the war, but for reasons I need not repeat here, THEY found the war to be moral on other, more Objectivism-compatible bases. But NONE of that has ANYTHING to do with stem cell research, so I have no idea why Thomas brought it up.



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Post 8

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 12:54pmSanction this postReply
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Marnee:

So your solution here is to allow the governement to spend our stolen money on utterly purposeless science (such as you quote) rather than on science universally hailed as likely to end many diseases and improve the quality and quantity of human life? And on the basis of superstition?

Listen, I can't stop them from stealing my tax dollars. We agree its wrong. But by fuck, if they are going to take my money, at least do something senseical with it, and dont forclose what is sensible based on your particular flavor of mystic hogwash!

Get past the 'governernment should fund scientific research' bugaboo, because we must accept the metaphysically given.



Post 9

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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I am not sure if the ban is a good thing, because of the way it has been justified.

I think reduction in federal funding of science would be a good thing - but it must be done for the right reasons - i.e. that tax payers money should not be spent on it.

However, if done for the wrong reasons, i.e. for a religious or pseudo scientific reasons - and not for the right reasons, i.e. that tax payers money should not be spent on it, then the reduction in spending is only a pyrrhic victory for "freedom".

And in fact, no victory at all for the tax payer, as "ethical" science spending is still considered justified and the tax payer still foots the bill.

However, it is absolutely wrong for any objectivist to advocate the use of state tax payer money for stem cell research or indeed any other type of non-defence related science research!!!

Why on earth put up such an odious quote!!!





Post 10

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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Thomas Knapp,

Your claim that "there's no restriction on the creation of new lines by the private sector" is a falsehood, and given Bush's rather blatant use of the arbitrary power of the FDA to intimidate private industry into conformity and silence, hardly an innocent one. Once the FDA prohibited over-the-counter distribution of Plan B, in the face of scientific evidence which established objectively that it met all applicable requirements of safety and effectiveness - the only visible reason being that Bush disapproves of its private manufacturer's business policy - it became clear to private enterprises that they had better refrain from activities that Bush disapproves of, or else face arbitrary exclusion from the American market by Bush's FDA.

Moreover, the results of the research would remain unusable without cloning, which Bush absolutely prohibited to every lab in America, whether government, "private," or in a scientist's home basement. Since the prohibition against cloning is in effect a prohibition against profit from investment in embryonic stem-cell research, it is stupendously dishonest to claim that there is "no restriction" on the private sector. Why a self-proclaimed Libertarian would stoop to parroting Bush's frame-and-spin is left as an exercise for the reader.



Post 11

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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Adam:
"...Bush disapproves of its private manufacturer's business policy - it became clear to private enterprises that they had better refrain from activities that Bush disapproves of, or else face arbitrary exclusion from the American market by Bush's FDA."

There is also copious evidence that essentially the same thing is happening, and has been happening, at the FCC. Amazing how obscenity charges coincidentially seem to be brought against exclusively against Bush critics.



Post 12

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn, Marnee, et al - you might find www.hhmi.org/  to be of interest.....



Post 13

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 2:42pmSanction this postReply
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Marnee wrote:
Glenn, how is it impeded?

My god, billions $$ goes into all kinds of research in the US and all that is left is a bunch of politically motivated pseudo-science (Global Warming anyone? Obesity death "epidemic"? Sheesh!).

The people who will benefit the most from stem-cell research and any scientific research will find a way to finance their ideas, they wont waste it, and they wont waste time figuring out more ways to con the the State into sending more science welfare their way.

I suspect there is a good deal of private research in the stem-cell area, but no one hears about it. argh.

The ban is a good thing. Maybe some actual work will get done and all without wasting the taxpayers good money.


Hear, hear! It seems there are some principled people on this board after all.



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Post 14

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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Marnee:

So your solution here is to allow the governement to spend our stolen money on utterly purposeless science (such as you quote) rather than on science universally hailed as likely to end many diseases and improve the quality and quantity of human life? And on the basis of superstition?

Listen, I can't stop them from stealing my tax dollars. We agree its wrong. But by fuck, if they are going to take my money, at least do something senseical with it, and dont forclose what is sensible based on your particular flavor of mystic hogwash!

Get past the 'governernment should fund scientific research' bugaboo, because we must accept the metaphysically given.


By this logic, conservative Christians can easily argue that, if they're forced to pay thousands of dollars every year into the State "education" system, then, by God, the system should teach Christian values.

Assuming money is stolen from me, I would rather it go to food stamp programs and national parks than wars in Iraq or the prison-industrial complex. What do you think of that?



Post 15

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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Quoth Adam Reed:

"Your claim that 'there's no restriction on the creation of new lines by the private sector' is a falsehood"

Okay, you're making a claim that there is a ban on the creation of new embryonic stem cell lines in the private sector. Can you cite anything -- be it a direct Federal Register number, a statute name or number, or whatever, or even a news account -- of this ban being implemented?

"Moreover, the results of the research would remain unusable without cloning, which Bush absolutely prohibited to every lab in America, whether government, 'private,' or in a scientist's home basement."

Actually, there are a number of uses of stem cells being researched that do not, and would not, require cloning (and now that cord blood is being banked, most people will have access to their own embryonic stem cells without cloning).

Furthermore, I don't know where you got the idea that cloning has been banned by Bush. A bill to ban cloning passed the House but failed in the Senate. Nine states have so far banned cloning, but Bush is neither a legislator in, nor governor of, any of those states (there's a bill in my state of Missouri to ban cloning, but Governor Blunt has indicated that he will not sign it).

Tom Knapp



Post 16

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 3:47pmSanction this postReply
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SPin it however you want--for the first time ever, the US will be miles behind other countries in stem cell research. Not because we do not have the talent or acument to lead the field, but because a religious group is imposing its morality on all of its citizens. It is indeed a dark day for the Republic.
Well Scott, at least we are ahead with HDTV.




Post 17

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 3:49pmSanction this postReply
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Suppose, suppose

Suppose further that the only way to counter this is through stem cell research. Would federal funding for such a research be justified?
With the CDC in charge would it make any difference?




Post 18

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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Since the federal government in this country is, right or wrong, a major source of funding for research, the fact that there won't be any funds made available for new lines of embryonic stem cells will impede research in this country.  Period.  Get real, Tom.  A lack of interference is not the same as support.

Mumbles Mr. Fletcher with a mouth full of government teat.




Post 19

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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Scott wrote:

Get past the 'governernment should fund scientific research' bugaboo, because we must accept the metaphysically given.

Male cow excrement.




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