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Post 0

Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 6:02pmSanction this postReply
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Great to see a Penn Jillette quote on here.  The guy's abrasive and witty language along with his dead on analysis always brings a smile to my face and some fire to my soul.

---Landon




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Post 1

Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 11:31pmSanction this postReply
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ahem...

I'm kinda partial to Brazil. Freedom and capitalism are growing there by leaps and bounds. Growing pains (finally!), but not a hellhole by a long shot.

The women there don't dress like Batman either. Go to the beaches or anywhere during Carnaval and they practically don't dress at all!

Michael



Post 2

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
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Yes, and live in Europe and you won't live in a hell-hole, too, because the state will take care of your every step :)



Post 3

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 6:56amSanction this postReply
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Gillete is not one who celebrates diversity. :)



Post 4

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Are they still moving towards Capitalism under Lula?




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Post 5

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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Is the author of this quote delusional?

My recent trip included Italy and Switzerland, both much closer to heaven than the US of A. Indeed, if I were Swiss and someone told me that the sale of Camille Bloch Cognac Noir is prohibited in the US - which it is - he would quite correctly evaluate such a place as a Hellhole. Which in some respects it is, and in others isn't. Just like so many other countries in the world.





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Post 6

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

At least I live in my favorite country.




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Post 7

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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Is the author of this quote delusional?
Nope, he is Illusional... and so is his partner Teller. Whenever you get out to Las Vegas, check out their show at the Rio.  Those guys are great.  I love Penn & Teller.  Way cool stuff and last time I saw them I helped them with a trick. 



Post 8

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 11:39pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D - Gillette in Brazil means bisexual (the razor blade that cuts on both sides.)

Scott - Lula? Capitalist? Much more than anybody thinks. Watch what a man says (more socialist), then see what he does (more capitalist). And don't forget what he inherited for context. But I really liked Cardoso, a highly underrated Brazilian President now, as he solidified the government institutions while facing near chaos and brought inflation under control, starting from when he was Minister of Finance.

btw - Ask the IMF and World Bank about Lula - Brazil has even been paying its foreign bills for a change! Dayaamm!

Michael




Post 9

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 12:12amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

I also live in my favorite country: California. It is my favorite because both I and the woman I love, the two of us born in Poland and Korea respectively, can live together and both have access to most of the best that our respective cultures can offer. That is the good side.

The bad side is that California is locked into a union with some very nasty places. New Jersey is ruled by the Sopranos, no matter which party is nominally in power in Trenton. On one cross-country trip, when I was younger, I was very nearly lynched in Utah because the adult woman I was traveling with looked like a teenager. People from those nasty places enforce some very nasty laws. I am near sixty, and if in the coming years I were to suffer from cancer, or chronic pain, or any of a constantly increasing number of medical conditions whose optimal treatment is against federal law in the United States, I would have to move elsewhere or die in pain.

So with hellholes, and everything else, context matters. When someone writes that this or that country is a hellhole, it is reasonable to ask: a "hellhole" for what? And to whom?





Post 10

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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Interesting and funny Michael.



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Post 11

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 11:33amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Yeah, can you believe those nasty laws, like those against molesting kids?  What a bunch of unenlightened mystics!  Based on your previous hyperbole, I suspect that your version of being "nearly lynched" involved the police asking your girlfriend to produce ID.

Actually, I would love to see California, and the rest of the '04 Blue States form a separate country (sorry, you'd have to take NJ too).  You could call it New Canada!  Your fears of a theocracy notwithstanding, I'd stay with the Jesus Freaks before the Socialists, and believe that our country would have more economic and even personal freedoms (PC speech codes count)20 years down the road.  Yes, you might still have to buy your weed on the black market, but if you're discreet, no one is going to bust you. (Our neighbor tried to have the cops go after some other neighbor's kids for smoking pot in their house but the cops refused and said it isn't their policy, and this is Kansas).

Oh, to be free of you liberals would truly create a Second Renaissance!

(Edited by Scott Schiff on 7/05, 11:35am)




Post 12

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

One thing that history teaches us is that politicians often find, that they can only get away with what they do by talking up a storm for the exact opposite. Lula and George W. Bush are not the only examples...



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Post 13

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 1:50pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,

My trouble in Utah started after my girlfriend produced her ID for the police, and they in turn called the police in her home state to verify her age. I was moving cross-country when the U-Haul truck broke down on a highway in Utah. The local U-Haul franchise owner came with a tow truck after the police called him, and then decided to leave me with the broken truck where I was, since any man whose companion looked as young as my girlfriend did, must be a child molester, regardless of the woman's actual age. So he drove away, with the obvious intention of getting some more rednecks together and coming back to deal with that "peedophile foreigner." The policemen appeared to be in league with the man, and decided to leave me behind for his gang to deal with. They did agree to give my companion a ride into town, where there was a pay phone (this was some decades before the age of cellular telephones.) She called the U-Haul help line and related the events. U-Haul called the franchise owner and told him they would withdraw his franchise if he went ahead with his plans, or if he failed to fix the truck properly. Thus capitalism worked, with no thanks to Utah rednecks or their police.

My problem with God-worshippers is that they have absolute faith in their own bigoted opinions, without regard for mere facts. That attitude can put the lives of reasonable people at risk.



Post 14

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 5:40pmSanction this postReply
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Ah - Utah - THAT  explains that...



Post 15

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 5:54pmSanction this postReply
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Adam, as a Hoosier (Indiana native) I think I know why I like your posts so much now.

---Landon




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Post 16

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
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Adam, I'm not sure I get your narrative straight.

In Post 9, you characterize the event as your being "very nearly lynched in Utah." Then in Post 13, here are the further details you provide about this alleged near-lynching:
My trouble in Utah started after my girlfriend produced her ID for the police, and they in turn called the police in her home state to verify her age. I was moving cross-country when the U-Haul truck broke down on a highway in Utah. The local U-Haul franchise owner came with a tow truck after the police called him, and then decided to leave me with the broken truck where I was, since any man whose companion looked as young as my girlfriend did, must be a child molester, regardless of the woman's actual age. So he drove away, with the obvious intention of getting some more rednecks together and coming back to deal with that "peedophile foreigner." The policemen appeared to be in league with the man, and decided to leave me behind for his gang to deal with. They did agree to give my companion a ride into town, where there was a pay phone (this was some decades before the age of cellular telephones.) She called the U-Haul help line and related the events. U-Haul called the franchise owner and told him they would withdraw his franchise if he went ahead with his plans, or if he failed to fix the truck properly.
Now let me see. Cops who happen to live in Utah stop to see what happened with a broken-down U-Haul, and find an adult male in the company of what appears to be an unrelated but very young looking female whom you describe (and perhaps described to them) as your "girlfriend." Moreover, you are transporting this very young-looking female across state lines.

If I'm a cop, my alarm bells are going off.

The girl shows ID, but as we all know, IDs can easily be faked. So they call her home state for verification, which they finally get. Satisfied, these alleged Bible-thumping redneck cops don't beat you. They don't arrest you on trumped up charges. No, they call you a tow truck, and offer your girlfriend a ride into town to use the phone. For them, case closed.

Now the tow truck guy arrives in the midst of the confused mess, apparently during which time you are being questioned by cops about your relationship with what may be some underage girl. This guy understandably is wary about getting involved in the mess, so he takes off.

In short, the actual details you provide to support your original claim of a near-lynching sound entirely innocuous.

Yet you interpret all this as: "...he drove away, with the obvious intention of getting some more rednecks together and coming back to deal with that "peedophile foreigner." The policemen appeared to be in league with the man, and decided to leave me behind for his gang to deal with."

Okay, a few questions, since I'm confused:

"Peedophile foreigner" -- he actually used that term? Or is this just your characterization of what you presume to be a "Christianist" mindset?

How, exactly, was his "intention" of organizing a lynch mob (your claim in Post 9) "obvious"?

Are we to believe that he actually conveyed this alleged homicidal intention to the cops? If not, how could the cops know what he was allegedly planning?

And if not, how is it that they could have "appeared to be in league with the man, and decided to leave me behind for his gang to deal with"?

Moreover, in this "Christianist" nation, why is it that the U-Haul company -- presumably equally unsympathetic to Atheistic Peedophile Foreigners -- would side with you against their Bible-thumping redneck franchise owner?

Finally, how exactly is it that from the details you've provided you managed to deduce that the cops and the tow truck driver were "God-worshippers" with "absolute faith in their own bigoted opinions"? Why is anyone not simply to conclude that these were ordinary folks concerned about the possibility of an interstate kidnapping and/or child molestation in progress? And that they took no further actions against you once the facts were clear?

A case urgently needs to be made against the dangers of mysticism and blind faith. However, that case is not the one you make. The proper case against mysticism is not advanced when you caricature all religious people as conforming to the mindless, fanatical fundamentalist type, when you interpret all statements made by religious people in only the worst possible lights and assume that every action they take is in gleeful service of some jihad against rational individualists.

I have met many, many religious people during my life. Only a minority remotely conform to the fanatically malicious sort that you would have us believe is typical, if not universal.

One of the first lessons any true individualist should learn is that people should be judged as individuals. We lose all claim to credibility if we attack all individuals holding religious convictions as if they were part of an undifferentiated mob of fanatics -- using your own words -- "without regard for mere facts."




Post 17

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 9:46pmSanction this postReply
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Robert B,

The U-Haul company's business depends on their reputation for honoring their contracts with customers. Capitalism goes a long way to defuse the effects of bigotry - unless bigotry is given the power of law in violation of capitalism.

A businessman's honor is in keeping his contracts. Here was a U-Haul franchise owner driving away from a customer with a broken U-Haul truck in the desert 40 miles from the nearest town - a violation of his contract and a very open sign of bad character. His conversation and language were frightening, and heard by the policemen in full. Not only would he give no help to "this peedofile furriner," he was going to return with his friends to "shave this hippie pervert."

I have no doubt that if the author of the quote at the head of this thread encountered this kind of conduct in a foreign country, he would see it as confirming his view of the rest of the world as "hellholes." So, when it happens in Utah, what is his excuse then?
(Edited by Adam Reed
on 7/05, 9:47pm)




Post 18

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 10:44amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Good answer.

Ed



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Post 19

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Getting a Penn quote is always entertaining, but I'll be really impressed when someone gets a quote from Teller!



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