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Friday, August 5, 2005 - 11:30pmSanction this postReply
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I posted this quote for its contrast with Rand's later (1973) view of the relation of philosophy to the particular sciences. In 1969, she viewed philosophy as the integration of all the particular sciences. Sometime between 1969 and 1973, she changed her mind - I think for the worse - and by 1973 asserted that philosophy, being the foundation of all the particular sciences, is prior to all of them, and does not depend on (that is, does not need to integrate) any specific facts from specific sciences.

One reason I call my own position "Randian" rather than "Objectivist" is that Ayn Rand reserved the latter term for her final philosophical system, which included her 1973 view of the relation of philosophy to the sciences. I myself am in much closer agreement with her 1969 view of philosophy as the integration of all the sciences.



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Friday, August 5, 2005 - 11:38pmSanction this postReply
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Can you roll out some quotes indicating this change?? I don't recall getting any different ideas when reading ITOE then what I get in her quote here.  

 - Jason




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Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 12:39amSanction this postReply
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The quote above this thread is from 1969; ITOE is earlier (1966-1968) and makes the same point in more general terms. However, by 1973 Rand changed her position to the following:

"As against the special sciences, which deal only with particular aspects, philosophy deals with those aspects of the universe which pertain to everything that exists. In the realm of cognition, the special sciences are the trees, but philosophy is the soil which makes the forest possible." ("Philosophy: Who Needs It", Ayn Rand Letter III[7] 1973.)

The latter position is also taken by Peikoff in OPAR.




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Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 1:29amSanction this postReply
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Hmmmm, I will need to take a look at this essay again but I fail to see some dramatic shift from the epistemology of ITOE to some form of rationalism which, if taken out of context this quote could be seen to be advocating. 

My suspicion is that she is talking about philosophical axioms here (Existence and Identity) which by their nature cannot be proven by science but are the 'soil' upon which Rand builds her system of knowledge.   By understanding these axioms (or by coming to some understanding of the law of identity) we are able to build the sciences (the trees) and we are able to integrate them into our knowledge of "that which exists" using a method which checks the sciences against contradictions and integrates them with our other knowledge.  So I think she really means that it is the philosophical axiom identity which is prior to the sciences.  

Given this interpretation the order doesn't seem to shift but maybe I am missing an important component of what you are trying to say here.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/06, 1:45am)




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Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 2:38amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

In one of his lectures - which date to the days when they were directly approved by Rand - Peikoff says, in effect, that because proper philosophy is the foundational pre-condition of the sciences, philosophical disciplines cannot depend on knowledge from the "special sciences." Only knowledge independent of the special sciences is philosophy. (This is from memory, and one big disadvantage of audio is that I have no way to give you a specific reference.)

But ITOE makes heavy use of Piaget's laboratory observations and experiments in developmental psychology. According to Barbara Branden, Ayn Rand spent months discussing Piaget's results with Nathaniel Branden. One may argue from Rand's metaphor that the "trees" stregthen the "soil" they grow in, but that is a pretty far-fetched way of reconciling the two positions. I think that Rand's earlier view - that a philosophy is the integration of all the sciences - is much more useful.




Post 5

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 5:26amSanction this postReply
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Chicken? ... Egg?...  Egg? ... Chicken? ...  Cart? ... Horse? ...

Let us say that there are all these studies: arithmetic, geometry, algebra, trigonometry, calculus, probabiltiy, topology, number theory, symbolic logic, computuation, ... and then there is Mathematics. 

Is Mathematics the set of generalized and abstracted truths from all "lesser" studies, or is Mathematics the foundation of all of those and other branches of "natural mathematics" (as opposed to Mathematics; as "science" was "natural philosophy?")

This can apply to Art (sculpture, painting, etc.), or to Music, and to anything else.

It is the difference between how knowledge is discovered and how is it validated

Again from Mathematics.  How do you prove something in algebra? You reduce both sides to an axiom, hopefully A is A.  Then, to construct the proof, you start with the axiom and build upward to your proposition.

So, it may be true that Philosophy is the abstraction of all "sciences" but once established, it precedes them.




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Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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I don't own a recording of the early-1970s lecture by Leonard Peikoff that Adam is referring to, but I recall Peikoff saying the same thing: philosophy does not depend on science but science depends on philosophy.
 
According to the edited material from Rand's epistemology workshops, collected in the second edition of Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, Rand was making this point by 1971.
 
Here's an excerpt from my 1999 article on Ayn Rand's intellectual debts to modern cognitive psychology.  I cite the workshops under the names of "Binswanger and Peikoff" because they edited the material.  You can see the whole article at http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~campber/randcogrev.html.
 
*****************************************
 
Rand insisted that philosophy in no way depends on the theories or findings of psychology. This tenet is usually not taken to indicate a distrust of psychology per se, although a pejorative comment can be found in her epistemology workshops (Binswanger & Peikoff 1990, 216): when another participant brings up mathematicians who are interested only in mathematical concepts, not their referents, she reacts, "That would be psychology, or psychopathology, and I can’t go into that." Normally her position is understood as an old-fashioned separation between philosophy and the "special sciences."
 
                     Philosophy by its nature has to be based only on that which is available to the    
                     knowledge of any man with a normal mental equipment. Philosophy is not
                     dependent on the discoveries of science; the reverse is true.
So whenever you are in doubt about what is or is not a philosophical subject, ask yourself whether you need a specialized knowledge, beyond the knowledge available to you as a normal adult, unaided by any special knowledge or special instruments. And if the answer is possible to you on that basis alone, you are dealing with a philosophical question. If to answer it you would need training in physics, or psychology, or special equipment, etc., then you are dealing with a derivative or scientific field of knowledge, not philosophy. (Binswanger & Peikoff, 1990, p. 289)
Such a demarcation procedure runs up against the fact that what is considered specialized training has changed over human history; knowledge that was once highly specialized has become available to any educated person. Rand, of course, presumes that the ability to read is not a specialized skill. In our culture it is not so regarded. But in Ancient Egypt, where learning to read and write usually required a long apprenticeship in the guild of scribes, reading surely qualified as a specialized skill. In chemistry as taught in better American high schools in the 1990's, students learn to explain the behavior of acids and bases in terms of subatomic particles such as protons and neutrons. Such explanations would not have been part of high school chemistry in 1930. And in 1830 they could not have been part of the most advanced training in chemistry, for no one yet knew that there were protons, neutrons or electrons. The sort of partition that Rand sought to establish between philosophy and the sciences, natural or social, would at the very least to have be movable over time.
 
More to the point, it is hard to believe that epistemology can be successfully walled off from the relevant subdisciplines within psychology. Psychology only began to differentiate from philosophy around 1860 (Boring, 1950), and a philosophical account of the way human beings ought to think might be expected to pay some attention to the way human beings actually do think (cognitive psychology) or the way in which their thinking actually develops (developmental psychology).
 
Rand not only borrowed her conception of limited cognitive capacity from cognitive psychologists, she made frequent assertions about the manner and the sequence in which children form and use concepts. In the Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, the most prominent (but by no means the only) discussion of child development is the developmental sequence of definitions of the concept man (42-43). Are we to conclude that the data collected by child psychologists have no bearing on whether children form and define their concepts of human being in the manner and order that Rand specified? That is what we would have to conclude, if we adhered to Rand’s stated views on philosophy and psychology. In the epistemology workshops that were later published as an appendix to the Introduction, Rand makes frequent and confident assertions about the way that children (and sometimes infants) develop cognitively (Binswanger & Peikoff, 1990, 147, 151-52, 162, 167-74, 178-81, 200, 206-10, 212, 217-18, 231-32). (This tradition is carried on by Leonard Peikoff, in his account of the way children learn about causality [1993, p. 14].) These assertions cannot have been based on Ayn Rand’s introspection! And if they are supported by observations of children, what makes Rand’s observations of children admissible evidence for a philosopher, whereas the observations or experiments conducted by a trained child psychologist are to be rejected as inadmissible? For instance, are philosophers supposed to ignore the data of developmental psychology when they evaluate the assertion that children do not begin to count until well after they learn to use words for other purposes, or when they set out to analyze the cognitive prerequisites for the correct employment of counting (p. 200)?
 
Jean Piaget (1950) also considered the means by which children acquire new knowledge to be crucial to an account of concept formation (or, for that matter, of any other problem area in epistemology). But for that very reason he rejected all attempts to assert that philosophy has priority over psychology, and all attempts to wall off philosophical inquiry from the theories and findings of psychology (Campbell, 1997).
 
Rand’s understanding of the critical role of cognitive capacity limitations and her interest in cognitive development should have led her to regard epistemology as a cognitive science (as Ó Nualláin, 1995, does), or even as a developmental science (à la Piaget, or Feldman, 1993). A truly systematic and integrative conception of knowledge of the sort that Rand aimed at (Sciabarra, 1995) would overcome another dichotomy, the dichotomy between epistemology and psychology. Instead, her attempts to isolate philosophy from the sciences have obstructed the assimilation of cognitive psychology by most Objectivists. Even David Kelley, who once taught in a cognitive science program, and has made his own extensive use of ideas from cognitive psychology, still accepts the formulations of Quine (1969), a philosopher who never gave up his allegiance to behaviorism, as circumscribing the potential of "naturalized epistemology," and continues to insist on one-way traffic between philosophy and psychology (Kelley, 1986, 1998). I am convinced that Rand’s antipsychological metatheory (a set of declarations more than a little at odds with her actual practice) has significantly inhibited the further growth of the Objectivist epistemology, within the areas sketched by Rand as well as beyond them.

*******
 
Robert Campbell




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Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 9:01amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Wow! I didn't know that Rand had been exposed to Piaget's work, even indirectly.

But ITOE makes heavy use of Piaget's laboratory observations and experiments in developmental psychology. According to Barbara Branden, Ayn Rand spent months discussing Piaget's results with Nathaniel Branden.
Rand shows a lot of interest in cognitive development in ITOE (and in the workshops from
1969-1971 that were added to the second edition).  But there isn't anything obviously Piagetian in what she wrote in 1966-1967, or said in 1969-1971.

Has Barbara Branden written anything about these conversations that I would be able to quote?

Robert Campbell




Post 8

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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It's so hard already to be a specialist in a narrow field of sciences; now to be someone who's able to integrate all of the sciences, properly, ...that's really a tall order.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 8/06, 9:15am)




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Post 9

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

At SOLOC 4 I asked Barbara Branden about Rand's knowledge of Piaget and she told me this. You need to write or e-mail her - then you could cite her personal communication.

On the other hand, I also asked BB about Rand's apparent familiarity with the work of the "Foundations of Measurement" group - including S.S.Stevens' "nominal scales" - and BB did not recall, she thought Rand may have developed her ideas on measurement independently. I phoned Robert Efron a couple of years ago, and he remembers having extensive discussions with Rand about many issues in the sciences, but he does not remember discussing the "Foundations of Measurement" work with her, although of course he was familiar with it and they may have discussed it. I got in touch with RE through UC Davis, where he had an appointment as an Emeritus. Unfortunately I don't have his telephone number any more, but it might have been listed (on Yahoo People?)

Good luck!




Post 10

Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 12:48amSanction this postReply
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Adam, I'm in disagreement ...

Your original quote:

-----------------------------
Man rises above the perceptual level by integrating his percepts into concepts, his concepts into principles, his principles into sciences, and all of his sciences into a philosophy.
-----------------------------


And your interpretation:

-----------------------------
I posted this quote for its contrast with Rand's later (1973) view of the relation of philosophy to the particular sciences. In 1969, she viewed philosophy as the integration of all the particular sciences. Sometime between 1969 and 1973, she changed her mind - I think for the worse - and by 1973 asserted that philosophy, being the foundation of all the particular sciences, is prior to all of them ...
-----------------------------

Adam, epistemology (a strictly philosophical issue) IS prior to the special sciences. Before we can even have a specific view of things, we have to have a general view of things (specifics REQUIRE prior generality).

When scientists write about scientific findings, they write as philosophers -- not as scientists. Philosophy is that which we use to set the rules by which science can advance.

The concept of an expanding a priori zone of knowledge (knowing that you know what you know -- because of knowing how you can know what you know) is useful here. Science is either absolute knowledge of an approximate truth (induction), or it is approximate knowledge of an absolute truth (estimation).

Philosophy is absolute knowledge of absolute truths.

p.s. Insert "contextually-" where needed.

Ed




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Post 11

Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 12:52amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You restrict the scope of philosophy to axioms. I don't. Without facts axioms are useless. Epistemology, for example, only becomes applicable and useful when axioms are integrated with the facts of cognitive and developmental psychology. ITOE is a case in point. See Robert Campbell's article in JARS, "Ayn Rand and the Cognitive Evolution."

Without facts axioms are useless. A philosophy for living on Earth - or more accurately, a philosophy for living in reality, must be, as Ayn Rand wrote in the sentence quoted at the head of this thread, the integration of all the sciences.


(Edited by Adam Reed
on 8/07, 1:01am)




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Post 12

Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 7:35amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

If you restricted epistemology to axioms, then you could correctly say that it is logically prior to the sciences.

But Rand didn't restrict epistemology to axioms.

This is what I had to say about the issue a few years ago, when I reviewed Tibor's book, Ayn Rand.  Note particularly the passages in bold.

It may be worth bringing up again, because Rand's rejection of cosmology gets mentioned fairly often in discussions of Objectivism (it even shows up in Valliant's book The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics), but her failure to apply it consistently does not.

****************

As Machan reminds us in Chapter Two, Rand did not regard cosmological questions such as "What kind of stuff is the world made of?" (a favorite among the pre-Socratics) or "What explains planetary motion?" (a preoccupation for Descartes) as fit material for philosophy. In the sketches for her treatise on Objectivism, she derided such efforts; if they are legitimate, "then philosophy is worse than a useless science, because it usurps the domain of physics and proposes to solve the problems of physics by some non-scientific, and therefore mystical, means" (1997, 698). By poaching on the territory of physics, Rand was convinced, philosophers merely guaranteed that their theories would periodically be "blasted . . . sky-high" (698) by new scientific discoveries.

Rand’s solution to the cosmological problem was to restrict philosophical metaphysics to what applies in the very broadest context of human knowledge. Its contents were held to the axioms plus some basic metaphysical categories, such as "entity," "attribute," and "action." But note what her alternative was: "Philosophy is primarily epistemology—the science of the means, the rules, and the methods of human knowledge. Epistemology is the base of all other sciences . . . " (698). Wait a minute! Isn’t there metaphysics here, too? What are mental processes? What are minds made of? How does perception work? What are concepts? Are these the basic forms of knowledge? How does knowledge relate to action? Do the rules that describe logically valid arguments have to be used in order to produce valid arguments? Is language a direct expression of knowledge or is language use an organization of complex processes distinct from those involved in acquiring knowledge? Every one of these questions has a metaphysical component. But the component isn’t physical ontology (at least, not directly); it’s psychological ontology.

Now if epistemology harbors its own metaphysical issues, ought philosophers to keep well away from them, because they truly belong in the domain of psychology? Should philosophy refrain from straying into any area of knowledge where future discoveries in psychology might intrude? Rand (1997) mentions how old philosophical theories of color perception were discredited when physical optics revealed more about the nature of light in the seventeenth century. But how about the further upset to philosophical theories of "sensory qualities" when nineteenth century physiological psychologists realized that sensory nerves transmit electrical impulses, not sensory qualities, to the brain (Boring 1950)?

The moral is that Rand’s avoidance of cosmology can come back to bite. A good many of the problems that Machan would like Rand to be more forthcoming on are problems that her minimalist metaphysics has made off-limits to philosophy. While Rand rejected a metaphysical or moral diremption between mind and body, she didn’t feel obliged as a philosopher to explain the precise relation between them. Whatever her personal opinions of biological evolution (I honestly don’t know what these were), she didn’t think that philosophy needed to pay evolution any mind—in fact, to do so would be to poach on biological territory. But Rand had fewer inhibitions about poaching on the territory of psychology. She didn’t champion a minimalist epistemology (something along the lines of "Whatever human minds are exactly, and however they work in detail, they’re able to acquire knowledge and make rational arguments"). On the contrary, she elaborated a theory of concepts (Rand 1990) that, as I have endeavored to show elsewhere (Campbell 1999), is loaded to the gills with psychology. This theory of concepts is not a mere presentation of basic axioms; it is not subject to reaffirmation through denial; nor is it testable (as Rand sometimes implied) through introspection alone. Rather, it engages psychological theory and behavioral as well as introspective psychological data at many points. Rand (1990) genuinely believed that her epistemological theories had no dependence on psychology, so she never had to confront her apparent violations of the prohibition against cosmology. Following Rand, many Objectivists continue to take the entire theory of concepts as true in advance of, and regardless of, the empirical findings of psychology. But once due attention is paid to psychological ontology, Randians will need to ask whether the scope of philosophy can be truly limited to what applies in the widest context of knowledge (in which case Objectivist epistemology will be obliged to slim down considerably) or philosophy necessarily coevolves, ontologically speaking, with physical and psychological science. For if philosophy is obliged to keep its mitts off the Big Bang and the origin of life, won’t it have to keep its mitts off cognitive evolution and human development too?
 
**************

 
The full reference is

Campbell, R. L. (2000). A veteran reconnoiters Ayn Rand's philosophy. [Review of Tibor R. Machan, Ayn Rand]. Journal of Ayn Rand Studies, 1(2), 293-312.

Robert Campbell







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Post 13

Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Adam and Robert,

You 2 are seasoned veterans on this topic -- that's scary. In order to compete with the likes of you guys, I took it upon myself to create a magnum opus on the philosophy of science (now in article queue)!

If this self-ascertained masterpiece is published, then I can say that I'm a published author on this topic -- and that I've earned the respect of committed intellectual engagement.

As a teaser, I wrote that there are 3 things that philosophy does for the special sciences (things which the sciences NEEDED philosophy to do for them): axiomatic concepts, epistemological rules, and valid definitions.

Note how definitions do pertain to facts (not merely axioms). To the common man (the referent of the concept: philosopher), there are 3 kinds of facts available: those strictly perceptual, those strictly logical, and those that are best denoted as intentional.

I am not taken aback by the scientific refutation of prior philosophical conjecture regarding perception, for instance. Gibson's Ecological Theory of Direct Perception is quite commensurate with Objectivist Epistemology -- and I find this available, noncontradictory integration to be grossly under-utilized by Objectivist authors (Kelley etc) who've written on the subject of perception.

I'm also not (yet) moved by the accusation that Rand utilized psychology within IOE. This may be explained by my adoption of another largely-unchampioned stance: That (contra Dennett) the 1st-person view of the mind is the objective view of it -- ie. introspection is the objective standard by which the advancements in psychology are to be judged. I guess you could say that I'm an anti-heterophenomenologist.

Ed



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Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I'm looking forward to seeing your essay here on SOLO.

One quick question about Gibson's theory.  IMHO, David Kelley made rather extensive use of it in The Evidence of the Senses.  Are you saying that he could or should have done more with it?

In 1997 or thereabouts, I asked Kelley (who at the time accepted the standard post-1970 Randian position about philosophy and science) whether he wasn't relying on the findings of psychological research in his book.  As I recollect it, his response was that, as a philosopher, he was drawing only on the philosophically significant ideas of the Gibsonians, not their empirical findings.

Robert Campbell




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Monday, August 8, 2005 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I owe you an explanation. I was operating on second-hand information when I wrote that disparaging remark about Kelley not championing Gibsonian-validated direction perception. All I know of EOS comes from reviews and from what has been brought up in discussion forums. From these sources, it SEEMED that Kelley didn't champion the Ecological Theory. To be honest, I had been turned off from the book by all that had been said (about its supposed short-comings). Perhaps I will pick up a copy, now (now that you say he DID utilize Gibson's insights).

I also found out (internet searching) that Kelley referenced a sole 1960 citation for Gibson -- in the references section of EOS. Is this true?

Ed

p.s. Regarding my bloated comments about the value of my upcoming essay: The essay is too short, and too sweet, to be a referent of the concept: masterpiece. I was all puffed up in jest -- when I said such a grand thing about this piece of work (don't get your hopes up TOO high, the thing is good ... but it ain't a masterpiece)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/08, 8:21pm)




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