RoR: Forum

Post 0

Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:08am

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Inspiring. Goethe is one of my favorite writers.

UK

Post 1

Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 8:00am

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Who is "you" in this quote?

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 3/19, 10:46am)

Post 2

Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 7:14pm

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hahahah, I think this sounds like an artist and that he is discussing his aim in art and, hopefully, not real life!

"Just shut the *&%*$-UP and pose the way I want and in the light the way I want, and I will make you look more heroic than your pathetic self!!!

hahahah, no, its not like that I adore my models...

Michael

Post 3

Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 7:44pm

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Yes, that does make sense. I wonder if it really was what Goethe intended it to mean.

Post 4

Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 8:06pm

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The cool thing in art you can change people anyway you like: "you have flat feet!!! I will get another person for that part and just stick their feet on you (in the painting of course or it would become a Frankenstein, oh, Frankstein wasn't real, just an art work) so that we can make you perfect!!! Etc., etc., etc.,,,,

On the other hand, Hong. What about teachers? Don't we make people "better"? :), guess it depends on the teachers....wasn't there a dicussion about this on another thread? Or was that only that "public" teachers are evil all others are good?

Hey George, what do you think about this quote? I am not a mind reader! Do you have a list of requirements for potential friends or do they simply remain potentials?

No, I think in real life if they are not up to snuff, dump'em...none of this coddling and cooing over difficult periods.

If Goethe believes this for real life, wouldn't that be aweful to be around him? I mean the man was brilliant...and he would be forever ahead of you in the game of thinking and creativity, always several steps ahead...I think I would tell him to (*%(^-OFF, and go my own way.

Michael

Post 5

Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:35pm

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Surely the quote means that one should interact with someone as if he were greater than he is, showing him respect and positive regard.

I think I would tell him to (*%(^-OFF, and go my own way.

Do you think that approach would make Goethe a better man?

Post 6

Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:01pm

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Sam: "Do you think that approach would make Goethe a better man?"

Truthfully, I think that approach to human interactions is improper. But I am all for it in creating art.

Michael

Post 7

Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:27pm

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To me, taking implies taking some action or, perhaps, more likely, holding some opinion with the power to influence someone through it. In this quote, that influence is psychological, a matter of self-worth. Goethe is advising the reader to focus on possibilities of human achievement and not on past limitations or perceptions of them.

UK

Post 8

Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:30am

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Newberry: Do you have a list of requirements for potential friends or do they simply remain potentials?

Yes, I do have a list, which explains the very small number, of extremely high quality friends I have.

But to me, the Goethe quote is about "levels of expectation" in a mans character and mind, and the effect that those expectations have on him. Sort of like the effects of a teacher that takes it for granted that her students are bright, honest and eager to learn; as opposed to a teacher that takes it for granted that, those runny noses being picked, are as good as it gets.

Granted, a great number of people will always choose to just sit there and pick their noses, but I doubt that Goethe's reaction was to lower his standards to the comfort zone of the nose pickers. Of course if you apply this, expect to engender quite a bit of resentment and envy.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/20, 1:01am)

Post 9

Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:07am

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But to me, the Goethe quote is about "levels of expectation" in a mans character and mind, and the effect that those expectations have on him.

*Sigh*. Unfortunately many people, especially young people, tend to go against what's expected of them. Whether it is because of their rebellion nature or simply stupidity, I don't know for sure.

I tend to agree with Newberry that in real life, just take a man as what he is, no more. It happens so much more often that a man never becomes what he can be.

As for teachers, good teachers not only teach students knowledge, they also inspire them to be "better", to be something even better than they could have ever imagined. But, a man can only be as good as what he wants to be. No amount of teaching can make somebody better if they don't want to. Today in American, so many students consider their teachers enemy or oppressor. Indeed why do they have teachers at all. I am pessimistic. Unlike artist, teachers are not omnipotent.

Post 10

Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:30am

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Hong,

For the most part, I agree with what you have said, especially, "It happens so much more often that a man never becomes what he can be." I should not have used the "teacher' analogy, because what I am trying to say is something different.

George

Post 11

Monday, March 20, 2006 - 9:17am

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Taking a man as he is makes him worse...

suggests he's not in such good shape

If he has a significant amount of work to do, there may be only so many places I'll be willing to take him

Then, too, taking him as he can be, may be fantasy

that ends up a nightmare!

Although I do recognize potential and may wish for mine to be considered in someone's decision
whether or not to take me

Nevertheless, in some instances it's not about potential or what one CAN be, it's about being REA-DY

I guess it depends on the situation and the nature of the relationship

*s*

Post 12

Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:35pm

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George,
I see. I guess you were saying something similar to what Sam was saying. This is all very subtle and the original quote is somewhat ambiguous.

Post 13

Monday, March 20, 2006 - 4:07pm

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George: "Yes, I do have a list, which explains the very small number, of extremely high quality friends I have."

George,

Ok. Would you might encourage someone who is lacking by saying: "If you accomplish A, B, C, and incorporate that into you life then I will become your friend?"

Donna,

You sound more than ready!

Michael

Post 14

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 7:49am

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An artist asks: Would you might encourage someone who is lacking by saying: "If you accomplish A, B, C, and incorporate that into you life then I will become your friend?"

No, I would not.

But that's beside the point, because I don't make friends that way. Take someone like, Hong, her accomplishments on a personal and professional level are self-evident to any discerning person; one need only breathe deeply, and a worthy sense-of-life will be detected. But I was not talking about finding or associating with "friends". Rather, I am talking about the standard one might use in the context of ones own level of expectation with people in general.

George

Post 15

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 3:00pm

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George: "I am talking about the standard one might use in the context of ones own level of expectation with people in general."

"...expectiation with people in general."

I keep coming back and supplying alternative contexts for the Goethe quote. There are stages when it is appropriate to guide humans...hold it, wait, I am not a corporate person, and never worked for someone, so perhaps I am clueless about the dynamics of those cultures!

To "take" can mean to mold, to expect, to hope that, to judge, not on what a living human person is but what they could be. I think that is fine for an approach for ten-year olds, Dean, and other students. But once people are real adults their lives are their own. They are not little children and I find the attitude that one should have higher expectation of their fellow humans, in real life, real people that you associate with, patronizing as hell. Of course, if you think them not worthy of your time and effort that is cool and recommended for the sake of your self esteem! Hahaha.

I mean as an adult who the hell wants to be seen for their potential? Bunch of crock! If your white trash living in a trailer park without at least a spectacular view�and you want recognition for your online posts on metaphysics...yuck!

I think Goethe, is (ahahhaha, or should be) coming from the place of character development for a poem or story�there this makes sense, indeed it is an essential method.. It even makes sense for others experiencing that art works, they can look at the characters in art as role models to emulate or to learn from in the case of the more pathetic or evil types.

George we don�t know the source of this quote?

Michael

Post 16

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 3:16pm

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ahahahahaha

rofl!~

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/21, 3:23pm)

Post 17

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 4:17pm

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Donna,

You sound more than ready!
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Michael,

I try...

to keep my stuff together

cause shots don't always come round again and again

Shucks, they rarely do...

*s*

You know something though, even people who are operating well below their potential may have some useful purpose in our lives, as far as friendship goes.

i.e., somebody who makes us laugh and is a good plumber

somebody we get together with to ride bikes and they share our love of a certain type of music

Don't we have different friends who serve different purposes, or whose company we enjoy in different ways?

Some recognize their brilliance and are doing wonderful things in their lives and others we gently prod, poke and attempt to encourage, because we know they could be doing so much better (well, by our standards of course) - i.e., the friend who says the family likes "the trailer" just fine, it's comfy and it has a great view of the lake.

Maybe it's just me...*s*

However that's a problem with the "can be"...sometimes when we perceive potential or what somebody can be, it's really what we think they should be or want them to be when they really are fine with themselves as they are.

Or sometimes we just know they could be, think they should be, or want them to be something ELSE

*laff*

(Edited by Get to living! Donna Reed on 3/21, 4:35pm)