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Post 0

Saturday, September 16, 2006 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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This is the statement quoted by Pope Benedict XVI in a speech in Germany earlier this week that is being condemned by Muslims.



Post 1

Sunday, September 17, 2006 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the quote, Bob. I heard that the Pope is apologizing now.

Sickening.

Ed




Post 2

Monday, September 18, 2006 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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The following is an interesting excerpt from the Pope's speech.
The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul.
. . .
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: "For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality." Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us.
So the Christian God's nature is bounded by reason (the influence of Aquinas?) and to tell the truth. However, Allah is not so bound. Is it then no wonder why some Muslims are so irrational and chronic liars? It seems the essence of Allah is power and arbitrary will, nothing more. Why then should Muslims behave any differently?

[A friend brought this excerpt to my attention.]




Post 3

Monday, September 18, 2006 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
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Murder and rape were not new when Mohammed adopted them. Facing east may have been something new.




Post 4

Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
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Oh?  You mean they used to show their ass to the morning sun??



Post 5

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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Keep in mind also that Benedict was just quoting someone from history. They were not his words.




Post 6

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't they be showing their, ahem, backsides to the setting sun if they were facing east? (Rises in the east, sets in the west, if I remember correctly). 

As for the quote, unfortunately Islam is not exclusive in religions in using "the sword" to spread it's teachings.  I never quite could grasp the idea of "convert or be killed".  If you kill someone before converting them (and here I'm mainly speaking of Christianity) aren't you as a "Christian" led to believe that the sinner whom you didn't convert is now sent to Hell?  How does that jive with "Love thy neighbor?" (Majorly rhetorical question, right?)

Bauer




Post 7

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 10:47amSanction this postReply
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I just read that the Pope is refusing to apologize for his remarks.  He says that this quote was taken out of context and does not reflect what he believes.  You don't think that certain radicals (be they Muslim, or otherwise) would take a quote out of context for their own socio-political purposes, would they? ;)

Bauer




Post 8

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
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Facing east may have been something new
That implies it wasnt always so, that they may have faced west - in which case they had their asses facing east.....




Post 9

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Further - for sure, if they could get into power, Christians would indeed impose their beliefs just as fervently as do Islamists - for such has always been their history, always....



Post 10

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 12:03pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Malcom,

Blast!  I had a feeling you would correct me.  I need to brush up on my critical reading skills (read every word, Bauer).  Indeed, what you said did make perfect sense.   I guess they face east now so that they can tan their front sides.  They'd look awfully funny with only their backsides bronzed. 

And I'm definitely thankful that I live in a country that isn't ruled by some religion (although some statements and decisions by our esteemed President are frightening at times; stem cell research for one).

Bauer

P.S. I have edited the original post.  For some reason, the fourth sentence was cut short of what I wanted to say originally (very possibly operator error and not some internet hobgoblin).

(Edited by Bauer Westeren on 9/21, 4:51am)




Post 11

Friday, September 22, 2006 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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Just asking:

Has anyone looked this quote up in sources that were in print before the pope cited it?  It looks suspiciously modern to me.  I doubt that anyone, anywhere in the world, thought in such terms in the 14th century.  Show me a respectable source and I'll stand informed (at first I said "corrected," but, since I'm not denying anything, that would have been the wrong word).

Peter

(Edited by Peter Reidy on 9/22, 2:43pm)




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