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Post 0

Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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This succinct, profound quote about the inherent interrelation of means to ends (and ends to means) speaks -- in 5 or 6 words -- volumes. The take-away message is that the ends prescribe the (appropriate) means. It says that what you want, and how to get it, are inextricably interconnected. Aristotle once said that "Men are good in one way, but bad in many." (Nicomachean Ethics, 1106b) This Rand quote ties Aristotle's proposition to reality.

Ed




Post 1

Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 10:58amSanction this postReply
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What passage of what author was she commenting on?



Post 2

Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney, it was in: von Mises "Human Action" (p. 67) ...

No appeal to any historical or emprical considerations whatever can discover any fault in the proposition that men purposely aim at certain ends. No talk about irrationality, the unfathomable depths of the human soul, the spontaneity of the phenomena of life, automatisms, reflexes, and tropisms, can invalidate the statement that man makes use of his reason for the realization of wishes and desires.
Ed




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Post 3

Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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The bastard!



Post 4

Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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So, Mises makes two closely related statements:

1) Men purposely aim at certain ends
2) Man makes use of his reason for the realization of wishes and desires.

Given that Rand sees both ends and means as moral entities - matters of choice - implying purpose and requiring reason - that will have moral impact.

Rand appears to be saying:
1) Yes, Ludvig, men purposely aim at certain ends. but they also purposely aim at the means they choose for pursuing those ends.
2) Also true, Ludvig, that man uses reason to seek his ends, but he also uses reason in choosing his means.

(p.s., I've left off the part of Mises statement where he declares various arguments against the propositions as invalid - not what I imagine Ayn was referring to.)
(Edited by Steve Wolfer
on 1/20, 3:02pm)




Post 5

Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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I still need help understanding at least one aspect of this discussion.

Does Ayn Rand object to the term "the realization of wishes and desires" as the equivalent of "whim worship"?

In other words, does Ludwig von Mises assume a purely subjective value for ends rather than using reason to determine good, objective ends and then also using reason to determine good, objective means?




Post 6

Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Von Mises DID assume subjective values for ends...... tho reason was involved as well...
(Edited by robert malcom on 1/20, 6:41pm)




Post 7

Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 8:06pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I agree. My understanding is that Rand and Mises both saw man as acting towards ends rationally or irrationally - their choice. I think her annotation is a kind of 'going him one-better' by including 'means'.

Luke,

On the "wishes and desires" I'd say they could be rational or irrational. I have both all the time. I advocate using my reason to tell which is which and then pursuing the rational ones. My understanding is that 'whim worshiping' requires the context of substituting emotions and feeling for reason in choosing ones pursuits. Is that helpful?





Post 8

Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 5:38amSanction this postReply
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Steve, your comment is helpful.  I just wanted to understand if Rodney's comment in Post 3 was based on the worst possible interpretation of the passage Ed quoted in Post 2.  It sounds as if Ludwig von Mises made no distinction about the role of reason versus emotion in selecting ends, hence the economic term "subjective value theory."  What was Ayn Rand's overall moral assessment of Ludwig von Mises?



Post 9

Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 6:08amSanction this postReply
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Subjective meant it was personal.....



Post 10

Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 6:11amSanction this postReply
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My post was based merely on the fact that I read somewhere that one of AR's marginalia in a Mises book was "The bastard!" or something like that.

I don't know how to evaluate the Mises passage out of its context at present.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 1/21, 6:12am)




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