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Post 20

Friday, February 9, 2007 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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Very good, Steve......;-)



Post 21

Friday, February 9, 2007 - 11:25pmSanction this postReply
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Yes ... very good.

So, Steve, is THAT an instance of the "Narrative Therapy" you had mentioned earlier?

;-)

Ed
[once made a short narrative about how to solve the problem of terrorism on earth]



Post 22

Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 12:06amSanction this postReply
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I just obtained an instructor's copy of a 2008 psychology text ... [and I just read the copyright info on this advanced text (book quote deleted)]

Sorry for the teaser folks, I'm just trying to avoid liability, that's all.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 2/10, 12:31am)




Post 23

Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I don't know what you were going to share with us (maybe you can paraphrase rather than quote), but I'd guess that an intro to psych, as many of the universities want to teach it today, carries a between-the-lines message something like this:

"Once upon a time there were psychodynamic theories and then some humanistic theories came along. But today, we are enlightened - we and have CBT (cognitive behavior therapy) which relies of research instead of 'made-up' arbitrary theories. CBT is the true and only theory. (p.s. There are some other 'theories' but they are just pop psychology. - If it doesn't come from respected, academic journals then just ignore it.)"
(Edited by Steve Wolfer
on 2/10, 12:13pm)




Post 24

Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

================
maybe you can paraphrase rather than quote
================

Okay. Well, I was about to quote the book's section about humanistic psychology ...

The book was saying that humanism is something specifically "Western" because of it's focus on independence, self-worth, self-esteem, personal growth and productivity -- or something like that. The book said that there are some cultures where the individual is not so important. The book mentioned that, in these cultures, an individual derives his/her importance by being a part of a group.

There was something said about, in Western cultures, the squeaky wheeling getting the grease -- contrasted against certain Far Eastern cultures (Japan and China were mentioned) where the nail that sticks up the farthest is the one that gets hammered down. Psychologists studying these collectivist cultures noted that individuals were more concerned about not having faults (than they were about personal growth).

I just found it amusing how the book treated collectivism as a viably-human way to live (i.e., as an alternative way to be happy on earth). And the contrast of humanist culture (like in the U.S.) against collectivist culture (like in China or Japan) was particularly striking.

Ed



Post 25

Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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I'm surprised the textbook had such a good description of Humanism - that is it recognized all of those traits and attributed them to the West. Thanks, Ed.
(Edited by Steve Wolfer
on 2/10, 2:26pm)




Post 26

Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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Aaron,

Steve doesn't know crap about Ross Jeffries or NLP. He is merely taking a little bit of information from a not-so-good Wikipedia entry. There's a whole lot more to what he teaches.

Most of these gurus agree that "all game is inner game."

It's not about looks or money. Seduction is mainly about your attitude and how you see yourself. There is definitely a lot of truth that the man who despises himself is one who spends time chasing women. These guys teach you to view yourself as the prize. If you act like you are the prize, then women will treat you like one as well.

They teach you how to act this way even if your history with women is abyssmal. They teach you that attraction is a process, not a feeling. And if you want to have success with a woman, you have to find out what her attraction process is. It's true that many women are confidence fetishists, but there is more to it than that.

Here's the deal. Most women are not attracted to men who lick their boots. They aren't attracted to you because you are nice to them or because you have complimented them. They certainly aren't attracted to you if you do things for them. But there are things that do kick off their attraction processes, and there are things you can do that will help you find her attraction process.
And while I like to think that Objectivist women are less prone to this than say Christians or communists, those factors probably matter a hell of a lot no matter what.
There was only one Objectivist woman who really interested me. She complained that she had a "non-Objectivist boy friend" who also hated her voice. That was in 1995, and I think she is now married with two children by that same man.

Well, embedded commands do work. They have to be delivered in a certain way. Today, for example, a seminar leader said that people should "look over there by the products." The by the products phrase was a pretty obvious embedded command.

Embedded commands only work in a certain context and with a lot of work to back them up. You can't just do one and expect it to work.

People are almost always in a trance state of some type to some degree. You are in one when you read, when you drive. NLP really teaches you how the mind works. It teaches you how to fix your own and to fix others if you want.

The anchor is one key thing I learned from NLP. An anchor is just something that triggers a memory or a state. Here's a case in point. Last October, I set up a network in a small office. This included configuring a router and a DSL modem. I was sitting in the receptionist's desk when I configured the router and modem.

I had forgotten how to do this job. On Thursday, I had to do the job again. When I sat down in the chair, all of my memories came back. I suddenly remembered how to do everything I needed to do. I had it all done in 15 minutes. The chair was an anchor.




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Post 27

Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 4:37pmSanction this postReply
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Aaron, it is better if I tell you what I know or don’t know – that’s an area Chris isn’t qualified to speak on.

All that I know about Ross Jefferies (or want to know) came from these:
- The link to his Wikipedia article (which Chris supplied in post #3 on this thread. It has the quote you asked about.)
- The ‘Official Ross Jefferies’ web site: http://www.speedseduction.net/ where he says, “Remember my unconditional guarantee: "You Don't Get LAID, I Don't Get Paid",
- And, from some web pages turned up with a quick Google search to see what was being said about him and the Seduction gurus and their groupies. (Some of this stuff is hilarious – like a cult – and they practically have there own language.)

On NLP, I’m not an expert. It was part of the Masters level psychotherapy techniques course it at the university. I worked with a couple of therapists that used NLP techniques when I was being supervised. I’ve read three or four books on the subject. And, I used some of the techniques as a therapist – for about a decade.

For me, this was never about Jefferies or NLP – it is about treating women as objects, turning socializing into an asinine kind of warfare, elevating getting laid into a life-goal, about men moving further away from dealing honestly with their fear of rejection and about trying to secretly control others. Especially that last one. All of this is totally, diametrically opposed to the spirit and sense of life I associate with Objectivism.





Post 28

Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
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What Steve said.

Ed



Post 29

Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 11:19pmSanction this postReply
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Aaron,

I think Steve and I will agree that we come from drastically different perspectives. Steve is coming from that of an experienced professional, who has studied this stuff in college. In many respects, I am a crank. I have no professional experience.

But that isn't what is important for me. I first discovered Rand in 1992. I discovered NLP in 2005. I definitely think that NLP has already done more for me in helping me create a better life for myself. Unfortunately, I can not say for this for Rand and Objectivism. At times, I wonder if it has done me more harm than good.

And the many friends I have acquired because of NLP will say the same thing with regard to NLP solving problems. That is something else NLP has given me--a support group.

Obviously, a polio vaccine is useless for someone who has rabies. A rabies vaccine will not help someone with polio. NLP solved the problems I wanted to solve. But others do see Branden as a solution to theirs, but I'm not sure how it works.

I was quite happy that I got to see Ross Jeffries in action this weekend. The seduction stuff is what brings in customers and what pays the bills. Remember that sex sells, but there is so much more to what he teaches.

A lot of what he talked about at the seminar was "chatter" and "noise." He talked mainly about how people sabotage their own success and "hallucinate away" their success. He also talked about how people make progress and then why their progress stops--much like someone who loses 20 pounds then gains it back.




Post 30

Monday, February 12, 2007 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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Chris wrote:

But that isn't what is important for me. I first discovered Rand in 1992. I discovered NLP in 2005. I definitely think that NLP has already done more for me in helping me create a better life for myself. Unfortunately, I can not say for this for Rand and Objectivism. At times, I wonder if it has done me more harm than good.

The Objectivist ethics address the four needs of human beings:

Soul: Self
Emotions: Self-Esteem
Mind: Reason
Body: Purpose

While I understand Steve Wolfer's objections to the "Speed Seduction" aspects of NLP, I think he interprets them in the worst light possible.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with (1) accepting the nature of human relations as involving a great deal of other-than-conscious interactions, (2) learning all I can about them, and then (3) using them to my advantage.

After all, every man or woman is an end in himself or herself (self) and each requires knowledge (reason) to achieve goals (purpose) that make him or her feel good (self-esteem).

A man can use the techniques of "fluff talk" and suggestive sexual innuendo to sexualize his first encounter with a new woman so that she associates those erotic feelings with that man.  Why not?  As far as I can tell, that marks the essence of the animal passion side of romance whether anyone admits it or not.  Men who do not do this too often hit the deadly wall of LJBF -- "Let's Just Be Friends."

So, Chris, from a scorekeeping standpoint, i.e. a set of measurable results, please tell us with how many women you erotically bonded at any level as a result of:

1. The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden
2. The Speed Seduction® Workbook by Ross Jeffries

In the end, after all the talkers have finished bloviating, the bottom line results matter most.

I will admit that a successful long-term relationship requires a deeper use of Objectivism.  But for opening doors to bonding in the first place, I can see the role of NLP as well.




Post 31

Monday, February 12, 2007 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Without going into details, I can say that I am doing better with better women than I did before. My goal is definitely not to get as many women as I can into bed. My goal is to have power and choice in my life and relationships.

Several women who have known me since before I got into this stuff have told me that this stuff is good for me.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with (1) accepting the nature of human relations as involving a great deal of other-than-conscious interactions, (2) learning all I can about them, and then (3) using them to my advantage.
I wish I could have articulated it this well. Many people like Ross Jeffries are simply doing things that "natural seducers" are doing already. The difference is that people like Ross Jeffries are aware of what they are doing.

Many people seem to believe that relationships and seduction are just dumb luck. It is not luck at all. In that sense, we are simply scientists who are discovering the mysteries of things that were believed to be unknown.

People used to think that disease was the result of curses. People used to think that some people had "grace" from "god." People used to think that weather had no explanation. People still pray for jobs, money, and other things.

I got into NLP and Ross Jeffries because I believe that everything has a reason, because I believe that all problems can be approached and solved scientifically.

Probably 80% of this stuff is non-verbal. I see it as speaking a different language, just like I would speak Spanish to people who only speak Spanish.

When I got into NLP, one of the first things that happened was my relationship with my parents got better. Even though we both speak English, I often told people that we simply didn't "speak the same language." Well, I learned how to make things better with them. I'm glad I did. It was a win-win situation.




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