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Friday, February 16, 2007 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Here is another Ron Paul quote. It is found on the praise page of a book.

"John Robbins is as stalwart a defender of a free society as I have known. His love of freedom—religious, political, and economic—motivated him to write Without a Prayer, a brilliantly insightful analysis of Ayn Rand's influential philosophy. Without a Prayer deserves to be read by everyone who loves freedom—everyone who wants to advocate freedom with arguments that cannot be refuted. Robbins furnishes the indispensable ideas—the intellectual ammunition—required to defend freedom successfully.

Ron Paul (R-TX)
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, D.C."

The full title of the book is Without a Prayer: Ayn Rand and the Close of Her System by John Robbins. It is published by The Trinity Foundation.

The thesis is to prove that Rand actually believed in God (albeit not the Christian one) and that her logic was so weak, she ended up promoting ideas contrary to what she really would have promoted otherwise. It is an attempt to equate Christianity with reason.

Actually, Robbins does a thorough job of making an in-depth analysis and critique of the fundaments of Objectivism, starting with ITOE and then moving on to her other works. He knows the Objectivist body of work much more thoroughly than many Objectivists. At the end, he also points out what he considers to be the failures of The Ominous Paralles and OPAR by Peikoff, and The Evidence of the Senses by Kelley. Robbins peppers (and ends) his work with praise and analysis of whom he considers to be the true 20th century philosophical intellectual, Gordon H. Clark, a Calvinist theologian and controversial Presybterian Minister.

Some of his arguments should be addressed by Objectivists as they are quite perceptive, but others are pretty boneheaded. There seems to be very little middle ground from what I have read so far: you get either profound insight or foolishness.

At any rate, Robbins considers Rand's philosophy to be mostly invalid and pretty dangerous. Here is a quote from the "Forward":

"This book is an analysis and refutation of the ideas of Rand set forth so persuasively in both her fiction and nonfiction works. Ideas, for better or for worse, rule the men who told them, and through them, they rule the world. When a generation is presented with such a lethal system of ideas so attractively packaged, someone must take the time to suggest that all is not as it appears to be, that Rand's system is really a Trojan thoroughbred.

This book is very critical of Rand's philosophy. In the succeeding chapters I explain in detail why her philosophy is false."

To be fair, Robbins then mentions some of the ideas he agrees with. There is also this gem on the back of the book:

"The standard by which Without a Prayer judges Rand is her own standard: logical precision and consistency. Without a Prayer does not condemn Rand for being 'too logical,' as some critics have done, for the author is convinced that it is impossible to be too logical, just as it is impossible to be too virtuous or too healthy. Rather, Without a Prayer demonstrates that Rand was not nearly logical enough. Had she been more logical in her writing, she would have advocated ideas opposed to those she actually advocated."

This is the book Ron Paul endorses for "everyone who wants to advocate freedom with arguments that cannot be refuted," providing them with "the indispensable ideas—the intellectual ammunition—required to defend freedom successfully."

Essentially, Ron Paul is stating that Objectivism is a false system that needs to be refuted for the good of freedom. Let people make of this what they will, but these words are what they are and this is something that needs to be considered in promoting Mr. Paul.

Michael



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Friday, February 16, 2007 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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Hope for the Republicans yet? Even if he doesn't like Rand, co-operation is the name of the game in the modern world of politics.

Andy.




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Friday, February 16, 2007 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
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MSK-
Thanks for the info on the book and Ron Paul's endorsement of it. It's good to keep in mind that there's really no Objectivist in federal government, though Paul still stands head and shoulders above the looters that surround him.



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Friday, February 16, 2007 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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Ron Paul has good points but also rather nutty on others.  Michael, what are some of the specific points in the book that the author felt meant "the opposite" of what Rand suggested?  i.e. where does he feel Objectivism is wrong?



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Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:00amSanction this postReply
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Years ago, I read this essay by Jim Peron on a free market Web site.  He granted me permission to reprint it on my personal Web site.  When the controversy erupted over allegations of Peron's ties with people of questionable character, I opted to remove it from my site rather than get mired in the mud slinging.

I did save the text for future reference.  Since the subject of John Robbins has arisen here, this seems like a good time to post the text.  I consider Peron's analysis to stand on its own regardless of whatever character flaws he might otherwise have.  So please focus on the text rather than on the author.

The Theological Theatrics of John Robbins

 

Written and Copyrighted by Jim Peron
Auckland, New Zealand

Editor of the Monthly Newsletter Free Exchange

Executive Director of the Institute for Liberal Values

Reprinted with Permission


Ultra-Calvinist author John Robbins has penned a long, often boring, sometimes unintentionally amusing, attack on the ethical positions of Ayn Rand. Robbins promises readers that he will "demonstrate the errors of Objectivism" and will "reply to Ayn Rand in the name of Jesus Christ." He will also "point the reader to the only logically competent defense of truth and freedom, Christian philosophy." All this he will do without exaggerating or misstating Rand's views, and without resorting to ad hominem attacks. Robbins doesn't keep any of these promises.

For instance he attacks Leonard Peikoff saying his "scholarship suffers at the hands of an ill-educated man." And he says Peikoff's book "The Ominous Parallels" is "a poorly written, sophomoric attempt."  He also comes very close to engaging in good old fashioned Calvinist anti-Semitism. Peikoff, he says, "continues the Pharisees' war against the Messiah." He uses the term Messiah and Pharisees to specifically draw attention to the fact that Rand and Peikoff are of Jewish decent. He says that Rand "carried on her own war against the Messiah." In fact he claims that Rand's alleged hatred of the Messiah is her reason for writing her novels. "Like many other Jews, Rand could not accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, so she sought the Messiah elsewhere. Unlike many secular and religious Jews of the twentieth century, who thought the State of Israel was messiah, Rand found her messiah in her imagination, and expressed it in her fiction. Her messiah was not living; she imagined him; John Galt."

Robbins believes that the fact that Rand didn't write a rebuttal to his first book attacking her somehow proves he was right. He says that Rand, "to my knowledge...never made any attempt to respond to the criticisms of her philosophy made in that book. Nor, I might add, have any of her disciples, at least not explicitly. Imitating Rand's rodomontade, her disciples continue to write as if there were no serious problems in her philosophy--and that anyone who dares to suggest there might be a problem is a whim-worshipping mystic. Rand's silence--and her disciple's silence--should cause anyone interested in these matters to ask why." My immediate response is: Does the elephant notice the flea?

This argument is typical of extremists. Followers of Lyndon LaRouche claim Queen Elizabeth runs the world trade in illicit drugs. The Queen has not responded and this is taken as proof that the original claim must be true. It is a logical fallacy to assume that because you've been ignored that your arguments are unanswerable. A more likely reason is that people tend to ignore the ridiculous. It is likely that Rand never heard of Robbins or his book. [See note at end of article.]

Robbins claims that when it comes to Objectivism one has a "package deal that must be accepted entire or rejected entire." He is loading the dice. If a person disagrees with Rand on anything they are required to reject everything she has to say on everything else. This is, of course, absurd.

If Rand claimed to be a religious prophet revealing the word of God then Robbins could claim it is an all or nothing deal. For instance, Robbins says the Bible is the "word of God" completely and accurately. He also says that God is logical. Thus if the Bible has even one contradiction in it then it would have to be rejected. It can not be the word of a logical God and contradict itself. But a philosophy that claims to be man-made needn't be accepted as one infallible whole. Points can be debated, argued, revised, etc.

Robbins claims that Objectivism is a form of humanism. But any philosophy that makes humans the centerpiece of it's system is humanistic. But Robbins assumes this nomenclature to be the greatest insult possible. To him humanism is a godless plot to destroy decency and mankind. The main problem with humanism, says Robbins, is that it teaches "the autonomy of reason."

Robbins  opposes reason as a tool for gaining knowledge. The only method for gaining knowledge is through revelation from God. "Revelation is our only source of truth and knowledge. Neither science, nor history, nor archeology, nor philosophy can furnish us with truth," he says. And this means revelation only given to a tiny band of true believers like himself. Robbins goes so far with his absurd logic as to claim that he has no reason to know that Clinton is President. That is is just an opinion. But he can "prove that Jesus Christ rose from the dead" because"that information is revealed to me, not by the daily newspaper or the evening news, but by the infallible Word of God."

This just shows how ridiculous Robbins is when it comes to seeking truth. According to him all knowledge is impossible unless contained in the Bible. By claiming that everything is false except his interpretation of the Bible Robbins puts himself in an infallible position. He cannot be argued out of his position because there is no way of proving him wrong. You can not even use the Bible to prove him wrong since it is only his interpretation of the Bible that is the correct one. When someone has a theory, which they say cannot be proven wrong, that means they have abandoned all attempts at the rational. Now, even if Rand had been aware of his previous book it would have been impossible to reply  according to the new rules of logic which he has invented.

Robbins says that his readers should reject reason as a tool of gaining knowledge because various philosophers have different views on what reason is. He says, "If reason is the source of knowledge, it must of necessity speak with one voice." The fact that various religious beliefs differ on the nature of faith and revelation is ignore. If reason is invalid because not everyone agrees on its nature then revelation stands equally convicted. While talking about revelation as the only means of learning what is truth he pretends that "revelation speaks with one voice." It doesn't. Why should we accept the revelation of Jesus Christ as interpreted by John Calvin? Why not accept the revelations of Mary Baker Eddy or Joseph Smith? And why should we worry only about the alleged revelation of Jesus Christ. What's wrong with Allah and Mohammed?

In each case alternative revelations could use exactly the same arguments that Robbins uses to support his claims.  Since Robbins has excluded every means available to the human mind to test his claims, he in essence, is asking us to simply take his word for it. The Buddhist, the Mormon, the Spiritualist, or New Ager can do exactly the same thing. Anyone seeking to find "truth" would be left with untestable, competing claims.

This, however doesn't concern Robbins, since as a Calvinist he denies human beings free will anyway. In fact he says that, "one of the principal doctrines of the Christian faith is the sovereign election of God; that is, God chooses some people to be saved and predestines others to be damned." In another spot he says, "If God determines a man to believe the truth, then that man does not believe falsehood." But if this were true why did Robbins' God even bother with a Bible? Since man's religious opinions are put into his mind by an all-powerful being without his consent there is no need for a Bible. In fact, there is no need for Robbins' book either. In the world of Calvinism we are all spiritual puppets manipulated by an authoritarian supreme being who decides for us whether we believe in Jesus Christ or not.

No Calvinist can live like they really believe in their own absurd Stalinist-like God. They continue to make decisions while denying their own ability to do so. They continue to write books to prove something that can't be proven but only bestowed on the mind by God. The fact that Robbins wrote his book indicates that he isn't entirely consistent in his belief that man is impotent to think for himself and that all thought comes from God. In fact he even says that "if a demonstration of the logical incoherence of Objectivism is not sufficient to make Objectivists abandon their system, then they are the very mystics they condemn."   In fact, we can't assume anything about anyone because of what they believe-- not if God determines who will and who won't believe. One of the major proofs for Rand's metaphysics and epistemology is that her opponents have to live as if she were correct. Just as anti rationalists try and use rational arguments to prove their point Robbins writes essays as if man has the ability to think freely. Those who say that objective reality doesn't exist and that even if it did, it wouldn't be understandable, constantly act as if existence does exist and is knowable.   Robbins, like Rand's other philosophical opponents, continue to live as if she were right and their own beliefs were nonsense.

One technique which Robbins uses is make a charge against someone and then simply claim, without supporting evidence, that if the person attacked disagrees with him that disagreement proves his point. He does the same thing when discussing the revolting doctrine of total depravity: which says that all humans are utterly and completely depraved and incapable of choosing anything good. In a response to an article by Nathaniel Branden on the psychological effects of belief in original sin Robbins not only defends original sin but manages to make this doctrine even more revolting. He says:

"...the doctrine of total depravity does not teach that men feel guilty. It teaches the opposite: They are so depraved, they tend to think they are fine, upstanding, and good. They are confident of their abilities and brimming with self-esteem, never realizing that they are poor, miserable, nasty, and brutish. They imagine that they understand themselves and the world, when they are ignorant of both. The philosophers and philodoxers of the Enlightenment focused their energies on denying total depravity, thereby confirming it."

Once again he creates a phony Catch-22 for his opponents. He claims that to disagree with him proves he is right while agreeing with him also prove he is right This is the essence of his entire anti Rand argument: I am right, if you disagree with me that proves I am right and I am not required to present evidence since all evidence is invalid.

Robbins argues that Objectivism will eventually lead to murder because Rand was an atheist. And, according to Robbins' logic, since atheism "is the ideological underpinning of the French Revolution, Marxism and Objectivism ... there is reason to fear that the practical results of the last will be similar to those of the former, should an Objectivist government ever come to power."

There are two obvious errors here. Contrary to the unsophisticated views of rabid fundamentalists atheism is not a belief system--it is the absence of one specific belief; i.e. the belief in a god. The absence of a belief cannot serve as the "ideological underpinning" of any movement.  The lack of a belief is not likely to be the rallying cry for anything. The a-theist is like the a-vampirist or the a-elfist. You are not going to have people flock to a cause based on the disbelief in tooth fairies. I dare say that the revolutionaries in France and the followers of Marx also discounted a belief in Santa Claus; a view I assume they share with Mr. Robbins. But the fact that Stalin and John Robbins both deny the existence of Santa Claus doesn't mean we can pin the atrocities of Stalin on Robbins.

But this attack is typical of the underhanded and flagrantly dishonest arguments which Robbins uses throughout his book. He attempts to smear Rand by  claiming that her belief system is similar to that of communism. This is done by quoting Rand on something and then quoting a communist saying something similar. Such comparisons might be valid if they regarded beliefs which distinguish communists from the rest of the world. For instance if he could quote Rand saying she supported the dictatorship of the proletariat, the abolition of private property and money, and the principle of "from each according to his ability to each according to his need." But Robbins only compares issues which are not uniquely Marxist.

For instance Rand speaks of the necessity of sensory experiences to determine reality. Marx said that sense experience "must be the basis of all science." Robbins conclusion: Rand "could not admit that the greatest totalitarians the world has ever known were empiricists whose epistemology and metaphysics were her own. By abusing them as mystics, Rand avoided acknowledging their common ideas. Rand was educated in the Soviet Union. She physically escaped from the Communists in 1924. She never escaped from the Communists intellectually."  Such logic is simply dishonest. It assumes that Rand obtained her ideas regarding sensory perception from the Communists, that this idea originated with the Communists and doesn't predate them, and finally, that the validity of the senses is what leads to totalitarianism. Each one of these implied arguments is equally ridiculous.

At another point Robbins quotes Friedrich Engels on the contradictory nature of a Divine Being. He then quotes Nathaniel Branden as making a similar point. His conclusion: "Actually, of course, it was Branden who was echoing Engels." The implication is that Objectivist arguments are directly cribbed from the works of Communists. Of course, there are other logical reasons why they both said something similar. Elsewhere Robbins says, "Rather than being diametrically opposed, Objectivism and Communism share common premises, and attack a common foe, Christianity." In an appendix to the book he crows "I have shown by dozen of quotations in the body of this book, Marxism and Objectivism are quite similar." In fact he doesn't present one similarity regarding a defining characteristic of Marxism which is shared by Objectivism.

Not only is Rand allegedly a Marxist, but according to Robbins, she is also a Kantian!! His proof: "Rand adopted one of Kant's ethical ideas as her own: Man is an end in himself." The irrationality of Robbins seems to know no bounds. This is like saying that Robbins adopted his views from the Koran and then offering as proof that Mohammed said God is almighty and Robbins says God is almighty. Hitler liked dogs but that doesn't mean that if Robbins is a dog lover that he is actually a Nazi.

One odd aspect of Robbins' book is that while he unfairly tries to tarnish Rand's character by claiming that she is a particular type of Marxist or Kantian he uses his bizarre form of logic to deny one label she happily attached to herself: atheist. In fact he tries to prove that atheism does not and can not exist. And the proof he offers is quite strange. He says that "philosophy is always the handmaid of theology--faith, if you wish--simply because unproved and indemonstrable axioms must be accepted for any philosophical system to begin." What is dishonest here is that he uses two very different terms and makes them equivalents. We could say that the axiom "existence exists" is a form of faith in that anyone holding it believes it without being able to prove it. Though I think there are certainly good reasons for holding this axiom. After all if existence didn't exist what is all this around us? But the term "faith" doesn't mean a religious belief. Here it simply means an unproven belief. On the other hand theology means the study of God. To equate faith with theology in the way that Robbins does is simply dishonest. It is a word game which twists meanings so that he can prove a point. Robbins takes the odd position that one can only be an atheist in terms of the Christian concept of God. He says everyone believes in a god.

"Some readers may find it peculiar to include a chapter on Objectivist theology, since Rand was an atheist. The peculiarity disappears when one realizes that the concept "atheism" is applicable in our culture to only one God, the God of the Bible. A person who disbelieves in this God may quite correctly be labeled an atheist. Atheism, however, in the sense of disbelieving in any and all gods is a logical impossibility. Every philosopher believes in some sort of supreme being and Rand was no exception. ...Some philosophers are monotheistic and some polytheistic. None is atheistic. They can be anti-theistic, that is, opposed to the God of the Bible; the history of philosophy is largely the history of such anti-theism."

Robbins once again pulls his old bait-and-switch technique. He first talks about belief in a God, he then uses the term "some sort of supreme being" as the equivalent for God. And since everyone believes in some sort of supreme being then everyone believes in God. But a supreme being is not necessarily a Supreme Being. If you take the view that Rand took, that the highest evolved being in nature is man you can say that man is the supreme being. This doesn't mean you are claiming man is a God. If mankind vanished it would be proper to say that the apes are the supreme being but that doesn't mean one is bestowing Godhood on monkeys. Even if humans vanished monkeys wouldn't suddenly attain manhood, let alone divinity.

Robbins also makes the false claim that "the history of philosophy is largely the history of such anti-theism." Certainly in western philosophy, which is what Robbins is referring to, the dominant belief about God is that one exists.  But just as Robbins has defined Christianity to mean what he and a few other extremists believe he has also redefined "theist" in the same manner. If you aren't an extreme Calvinist then you aren't a Christian but an anti-theist. This is one reason he can claim, as he does, that the Pope, Mother Theresa, Billy Graham and Robert Schuller are not Christians.

Robbins says that Objectivism would lead to a dictatorial society  and that Rand hated mankind, and wanted to destroy humanity.  Rand, Robbins says, was a humanist and that "humanism is inherently murderous". Where does he find evidence for this claim?  He finds it in Rand's short novel Anthem. Now the logic isn't exactly linear so follow closely. The two main characters in Anthem abandon the numbers given to humans at birth by the authoritarian government and take names for themselves; Prometheus and Gaia. Prometheus was used by Rand  because the mythical Prometheus took the fire from the gods and gave it to man. Gaia was used because she was the mother of all things. Robbins has a different twist on the symbolism. To him Prometheus "hates all gods" while Gaia "is the mother of gods." According to Robbins: "Inadvertently Rand revealed the inevitable consequence of her humanism: the murder of man. By her symbols, she unwittingly instructed us that the new world that Prometheus had begun is as totalitarian as the world from which he "escaped." Rand's heroes are supermen, ubermenschen, and their sovereignty results not in a free society but in a totalitarian society." If you didn't follow the logic don't feel too bad this type of belief must only seem  sensible if obtained by revelation.

According to Robbins the concept of "human rights" is a lie. Rights don't exist. Read what Robbins has to say:

"The distinction between right and wrong depends entirely upon the commands of God. There is no natural law that makes some actions right and others wrong...."

"This may be seen very clearly in God's command to Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Only the command of God made eating the fruit sin. It may also be seen in God's command to Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. God's command alone made the sacrifice right, and Abraham hastened to obey. Strange as it may sound to modern ears used to hearing so much about the right to life, or the right to decent housing, or the right to choose, the Bible says that natural rights and wrongs do not exist: Only God's command makes some things right and other things wrong."

"...What makes murder wrong is not some presumed or preexisting right to life, but the divine command itself."

This isn't too reassuring even assuming that "divine revelation" allegedly gives knowledge to Christians. First, Christians are human too. They can too easily interpret their own prejudices and biases as revelation and often do. And it doesn't do much good to point to Scripture for comfort since Scripture too must be interpreted. Fellow Calvinist Rev. Bahnsen wants homosexuals put to death and he uses the Bible for his justification. Having lived in South Africa I am  aware that hundreds of innocent people are murdered every year because local tribes believe the Biblical injunction, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." As Robbins himself points out that when God commanded Abraham to kill his son then murder becomes right. But how is anyone to know when God has spoken to someone else? The revelation which Robbins thinks solves all problems leads to the same abyss which he says is the result of reason. Mankind lived through ages when Biblical morality was enforced, where men, driven by God's revelation piled up the bodies of those executed for heresy and perceived immoralities. A Stalinist-like God will simply create little Stalins everywhere. When a man tells you about God you, in fact, learn nothing about some deity. But God is like a giant canvass where man paints an image of himself writ large. The theology of John Robbins tells you nothing about God and everything about Robbins.

There is no hope for humanity in the Calvinist theocracy of John Robbins. When he denounces the "totalitarianism" of Rand I pause to wonder. Perhaps he wasn't looking at Rand at all, perhaps it was his face in the mirror.

Note: Mr. Robbins argued that neither Rand nor any of Objectivist philosopher responded to his original attack on her. He implied that the reason for this was an inability to do so. This was done without any evidence that Rand ever saw his original book. And even if she had it would prove nothing. But it should be noted that Mr. Robbins did read this review of his book and his response was a short one indeed. He merely said that the he didn't think the book described in the review resembled the one he wrote. Surely what is good for the goose is good for the gander and his refusal to write a substantial reply to this essay must raise the same questions he asks about Rand's lack of a reply. The difference is we know he read this review we have zero evidence that Rand ever read his book. I should note that I do not think a lack of response to this review proves my case. That must stand on it's own. But Mr. Robbins seems to place some stock in such theories. By my standards this proves nothing. By his standards he seems to think it does.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 2/16, 11:02am)




Post 5

Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:33amSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

From what I read so far, Robbins does not say that Rand "meant the opposite" of what she wrote. He said that had she been more logical, she would have arrived at different conclusions and many of them would have been the opposite of what she wrote. I have only finished his discussion of the theory of knowledge ("Imagining Knowledge") and am in the middle of "Imagining Gods," so I do not want to go into much detail.

In general terms, from what I gather so far, where Robbins thinks Objectivism is wrong is in its basic logical consistency. He starts by giving the different meanings Rand used for the word "reason." Then he starts dissecting the tabula rasa idea, then the idea that knowledge is derived from the senses, etc. I will only mention one point here (actually a consolidation of several points), but he has many that are worth looking at.

He points out that tabula rasa means no knowledge at all at birth and that concepts are integrations of units of sensory material acquired after the tabula rasa stage. Then he looks at "implicit concepts" (axiomatic concepts in primitive form, i.e., concepts implicit in all sensations before they are integrated), and what this means to a tabula rasa mind, i.e., before there can be knowledge, and then how a concept can exist where there are no units. In other words, he asks how can there be knowledge where no knowledge is possible and how can there be a concept where no concept is possible, all by definition.

He finds some apparent contradictions that actually do need to be hashed out and clarified.

On the boneheaded part, he thinks there can be propositions without concepts, that Rand's position is that units precede identity in concept formation, that reality and being are so general they have no meaning, and many other gems along those lines. Side by side with a profound understanding of some of Rand's more nuanced meanings are instances of complete misunderstanding of something basic. Often he makes an important or even stunningly insightful observation and follows it immediately with some weird boneheaded idea.

For a simple (non-stunning) example, he noted that Rand hardly discussed the nature of sensations and how they become perceptions. This is true and does need work, which is why Kelley wrote The Evidence of the Senses. Then he follows this by claiming that this point has been an continuing embarrassment to empiricists ever since Aristotle. Continuing embarrassment? Heh. I never knew Aristotle was embarrassed over anything he wrote, or any other empiricist philosopher for that matter.

Robbins did coin a phrase I found charming. He called the Objectivist approach to knowledge: Primacy of Concept.

Michael



Post 6

Friday, February 16, 2007 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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I just read the Peron article. The post crossed with my last one. I am glad the article was posted because it did show that Peron read the book and it did summarize some of Robbins's views, although it was a very lopsided summary (and a wrong one in places).

Also, I am interested in Peron's work. He has done some good stuff. I personally treated this man shabbily online without knowing him based on decades-old events (and some general hysteria whipped up by a few individuals) and I want to give him a fair shake. I regret my former posture and I want to look at him objectively before forming any more opinions.

But in general, I did not find his review very enlightening. There were too many cries of dishonesty, attacks on religion in general, false suppositions, etc. From reading his review, one gets the idea that Robbins hardly mentioned Rand at all except to say a denigrating quip or two about her between sermons.

The exact opposite is the case (at least, so far in my reading). Robbins's book is replete with quotes from Rand and early Branden, and in-depth analyses of many subtle points of Objectivism. It is an extremely intelligent discussion—albeit with weird stuff thrown in.

I personally do not like the kind of review Peron wrote. It completely ignores the wider context of the book it is reviewing. Without a Prayer was published by The Trinity Foundation with mega-bucks behind it. A US Congressman endorsed it. Literature published by high-profile religious presses usually sells in vast quantities. Let's say that this book is getting much more exposure than Peron's review (and one could even use Peron's elephant noticing the flea metaphor).

So rather than rebut the ideas among the book's actual readers (and these ideas can and do need such proper rebuttal, especially with respect to Robbins's misrepresentation/misunderstanding of parts of Objectivism and places where Objectivism actually does need work), Peron prefers to preach to the small choir of hardcore Objectivists/libertarians, bash religion, bash Robbins, bash Calvin, bash the communists and bash some other things just for the hell of it.

Peron was completely wrong in stating that Robbins insinuated that Rand got the idea of knowledge derived from the senses from communists. He did no such thing. He merely mentioned that communists, like other empiricists who sought to use reason ever since Aristotle, held this view. Nor is it unreasonable to assume Rand had read Lenin. She would have been forced to at school. This last observation is me talking, not Robbins.

Robbins commented to Peron that he did not recognize his own book in Peron's review. Frankly, I didn't either.

Here's the bottom line. Peron's review has been buried, even though it is for free, and convinces no one. Robbins's book, which goes for about 20 bucks, is selling quite well with a major publisher behind it and is convincing oodles of Christians of some false ideas about Objectivism.

Who is winning the war of ideas?

I say real work needs to be done—not macho posturing or simple religion bashing (with communism bashing thrown in for good measure).

Michael



Post 7

Friday, February 16, 2007 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Hypothetical conversation between Robbins and Setzer:

Robbins: "Engage me!  Engage me!  Why won't you engage me?"
Setzer: "Because I do not need you."
Robbins: "Coward!  You're afraid of the truth!  You're predestined to burn in the fires of hell!"
Setzer: Utterly ignores Robbins and continues to live as if Robbins has said nothing, progressing as planned toward building a global Objectivist club network and acting with a productive purpose.
Robbins: "Objectivists threaten freedom in America!"
Setzer: Turns off media source so he can focus on his goals that he has deemed worthy by his own reasoning regardless of the protests of certain others.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 2/16, 4:30pm)




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Post 8

Friday, February 16, 2007 - 4:30pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

"Major publisher"? "Selling quite well?"

Are you kidding me?

The Trinity Foundation is basically a tiny operation out of Tennessee, largely a one-man show run by John Robbins. In effect, Without a Prayer is a basically self-published work.

I happen to have gone to college with John Robbins. Back in Grove City College, he was a year ahead of me, and we travelled in the same campus political circles. We had many discussions and debates. At that time, he was trying to integrate Objectivism, Calvinism, and John Birch conspiratorialism. The common denominator of all his favorite "isms" was extreme -- nay, fanatical -- rationalism. His is a total, complete severence of reason from reality. As one Amazon reviewer noted, Robbins is...
...a follower of evangelical Protestant philosopher Gordon H. Clark, some of whose shorter pieces are included in the appendices. Robbins defines Clark's philosophy as "scripturalism", a doctrine according to which "all our thoughts- there are no exceptions- are to be brought into conformity to Scripture, for all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are contained in Scripture." Among the corollaries of this position are the idea that evolution is "the greatest superstition of the twentieth century", and an extremely negative (Popperian) view of science, according to which "all the laws of science are false, and all have the same probability: zero" because they are "conclusions of logically fallacious arguments".

In Objectivist terms, he is a pure intrinsicist: he believes that we have access to infallible propositional truths, which are delivered to us directly from the mind of God via Scripture, and that all our knowledge either comes directly from Revelation or from logical deductions from it. A pure rationalist, too, he totally rejects empirical evidence as a possible basis for knowledge, and reduces logic to deduction, denying even the possibility of induction ("Truth cannot be derived from something non-propositional, such as 'observations'. Unless one starts with propositions, one cannot end with propositions.")

Robbins once told me he begins his philosophical "thinking" with the following "axiom": "The Bible is the infallible word of God." He then starts deducing away from that one statement. To him, anything not contained in or that collides with the Bible -- anything, even if it were to include the very nose in front of his face -- is both untrue and evil.

In short, Robbins shares the same basic epistemology as Osama bin Laden. Their only argument is over which holy book -- the Bible or the Koran -- is the source of all facts and reality.

His critiques of Objectivism must therefore be understood in the context of a radically rationalistic, ANTI-empirical, ANTI-science fanatic who starts with arbitrary "axioms" drawn from "Revelation," then uses purely deductive "logic," apart from any connection to perceptual reality.

The old name for this sort of thing was "sophistry."



Post 9

Friday, February 16, 2007 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Bidinotto wrote:

The old name for this sort of thing was "sophistry."

I agree completely and consider the book unworthy of further consideration given what I have already read about it.  Sanction!

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 2/16, 4:35pm)




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Post 10

Friday, February 16, 2007 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, Michael, there's one thing I agree with you in your post: that Objectivists had jolly well better think twice about supporting Rep. Ron Paul.

I've met the man, and he is obviously principled and quite personable. That's not the issue, however. It is the nature of his "principles." I find that on a number of telling issues, from abortion to religion to foreign policy, Rep. Paul also embodies an extreme rationalism concerning principles, and extreme intrinsicism in his conception of "natural rights."

Now, at first glance, rationalism/intrinsicism often looks "principled." But look closer, and you see the legacy of Plato and Kant.

While Rep. Paul often raises good arguments against this or that bad government policy, he does so in a very contradictory philosophical context. I often (though not always) agree with his votes; however, as an intellectual spokesman for liberty, he advocates a lot of erroneous philosophy.



Post 11

Friday, February 16, 2007 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I stand corrected on The Trinity Foundation. I presumed it was part of the Trinity Broadcasting operation (which is mega-bucks), so I didn't even bother to check up on it.

That makes the sales figure much lower, of course, but I suspect that it will still be higher than might be expected. Religion sells. They do that part right. And, of course, my remarks about the quality and actual influence of Peron's review still stand.

I also think that some of the arguments Robbins raises need to be faced squarely. Some of the ones I have read are very perceptive. I think it is a mistake to dismiss the whole thing as "sophistry," although much of it might be.

Dismissing any serious attempt at critiquing Objectivism is not a wise course of action. That's a good way to get sucker-punched from unexpected places later (that is, when the goal is to spread Objectivism).

Michael



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Post 12

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 6:01amSanction this postReply
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Michael;

Why joust with proponents of an internally inconsistent fringe philosophy?

Andy.




Post 13

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 6:42amSanction this postReply
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Joust?



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Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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Deliberately set up an intellectual clash.




Post 15

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 3:11pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew,

I eschewed that, except for very specific exceptional cases. I see very little value in it.

btw - You don't get sucker-punched by engaging an opponent. You get sucker-punched out of the blue by an opponent of whom you were not aware.

Michael



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Post 16

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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He sounds insane and not worthy of consideration.



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Post 17

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt wrote:
He sounds insane and not worthy of consideration.
I agree with Kurt.  Consider this passage by an unrelated author on his Web site:
For this same reason, the nation cannot enforce its abortion laws, drug laws, obscenity laws, immigration laws, etc. The community, the racial, religious or ethnic group, is barred from enforcing standards of any kind. The mere existence of immigration laws is an "initiation of physical force", an injustice. This is not an exaggeration. The Objectivists advocated the abolition of all immigration laws as long ago as the mid-1960s, claiming that prior to the First World War, one could travel anywhere in the world without a passport (THE OBJECTIVIST NEWSLETTER, 1968; this "rational argument" combines an oversimplification or misstatement of fact with at least two false analogies and a non-sequitur, but is too complex to discuss here. Passports in some form date back to 450 B.C.).  The intent and purpose of Objectivism was to get "right-wing" people to accept extreme "left-wing" social programmes (many of which -- i.e., the de facto abolition of national sovereignty and the family -- coincide with the Communist Manifesto). Jews always get the same results out of whatever philosophy they happen to advocate at the moment.]

The anti-Semitic rantings of this man stand more naked than those of Robbins but both men clearly appeal to such racism in their arguments against Objectivism.

I consider such arguments unworthy of further consideration.




Post 18

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 7:49amSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

You wrote:

"He sounds insane and not worthy of consideration."

Actually, so does Mein Kampf, which, during the first years it was published and sold, many found "insane and not worthy of consideration."

Don't worry. You guys don't have to rebut Robbins in the language of his readers, nor any other Rand critic for that matter.

I intend to.

Michael



Post 19

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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Some would dismiss Robbins because he contradicts himself (uses stolen concepts and other fallacious reasoning). MSK has proclaimed to take Robbins on in his own realm "in the language of his readers." I prefer to do things differently.

I get a kick out of rebutting -- or, when I'm really on fire, refuting -- folks like Robbins. I consider it a form of mental exercise (something that can be good for the mind). In other words, this response from me is as much a personal benefit as it might be to interested onlookers. Here's a quick response to arguments (actually, snippets of arguments) as laid out by MSK in post 5 ...


======discussion of the theory of knowledge ("Imagining Knowledge") and am in the middle of "Imagining Gods,"======

While the perceptual power called "imagining" can afford "knowledge" -- it does not afford objective knowledge of the external world (only of subjective mental events). In fact, depending on what you view as "knowledge" -- some folks wouldn't even consider this form of internal cognition to even render the product: knowledge. In short, Robbins is wrong to presume that imagining yields any kind of conceptual knowledge whatsoever. See me for details.


==========giving the different meanings Rand used for the word "reason."===========

One way to argue with someone is to take everything they've ever said on a subject and then, without taking into consideration the fact of reality that folks' positions mature over time, use the "old" words against the new -- as if no one will catch them on this. Keeping this context in mind, the proper meaning for "reason" that ought to be ascribed to Rand was her latest one; which shows up in PWNI 75; pb 62 (caps for italics) ...


========Reason integrates man's perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions ... . The METHOD which reason employs in this process is LOGIC--and logic is the art of NON-CONTRADICTORY IDENTIFICATION.========


... So, reason uses logic to integrate perceptions conceptually. And that is all that there is to reason -- according to Rand. Attacking earlier wordings is guilty of the straw man fallacy (as alluded to above). And though I haven't read it -- I'll bet Robbins does just that.


========Then he looks at "implicit concepts" (axiomatic concepts in primitive form, i.e., concepts implicit in all sensations before they are integrated), and what this means to a tabula rasa mind========

Taking the second point first: Concepts aren't ever implicit in any sensations. This is what Ryle called a category mistake. And as for implicit axiomatic concepts, they can be explained to commence in a one's mind after much perceptual awareness (we do not need to be "born with" axiomatic concepts, as Kant would have like to have proved).


========how a concept can exist where there are no units========

It can't, but this is no surprise (and completely irrelevant to Objectivist epistemology). Now, be sure, an 'illusion of relevancy' can occur which stems from arbitrarily stating that proper nouns (items of which there is only one unit) are 'concepts' -- but this is not true of reality. Proper nouns are remembered particulars ('perceptualized' -- not 'conceptualized' -- things). Note how the first time you ever see something -- it is, automatically and only, a proper noun to you (because you haven't seen 2 copies of it yet).


========In other words, he asks how can there be knowledge where no knowledge is possible and how can there be a concept where no concept is possible, all by definition.========

See above.


==========Rand hardly discussed the nature of sensations and how they become perceptions========

This is a job for the special sciences, not for philosophy. Objective philosophy starts with the truth that perceivable things will be perceived in a certain form -- there isn't a philosophical need to outline the process (an 'illusion of relevancy' here is merely a Red Herring). Here is Gotthelf (in On Ayn Rand, p 56-7) on the matter of perceiving the color of plants, and how the causal process of perception is a subject for science, not philosophy (caps for italics) ...


========Even were our sense organs different, though still responsive to the same attribute of an object, the FORM in which we perceive that attribute would be different, but WHAT we perceive would be the same. ... This is a single property or attribute of the object, identified relationally--it's what we call its GREEN COLOR. Scientific (not philosophic) study allows us to identify the underlying causal basis of this property--WHAT that nature is. The object's green color is not to be simply identified with that underlying causal basis ... ... the green color of the object is something we are DIRECTLY aware of, though in a certain form. Perceptual awareness is, then, direct awareness of the world.===========

Ed






(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 2/18, 7:56pm)




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