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Post 0

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 12:16amSanction this postReply
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This quote was taken from minute "20:00" of the interview.

Brian Doherty is a senior editor at Reason Magazine and the author of "Radicals for Capitalism: A History of the Modern American Libertarian Movement" ...

Publisher: Perseus Books Group
Publish date: Feb 2007
ISBN-13: 9781586483500
ISBN-10: 1586483501
Format: Hardcover , 741 pages

From:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=4873718

Ed



Post 1

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 9:36amSanction this postReply
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Except Bush's stated belief that tax cuts INCREASE tax revenue by stimulating the economy gives the lie to that part of Doherty's statement. I turned him off at that point. I stopped reading Reason magazine more than a decade ago.



Post 2

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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I understand that tax cuts will increase tax revenues (i.e., the Laffler Curve) but when those increased revenues don't match the massive government spending increases then Doherty's statement is fairly accurate.

I can't think of many people I'd like less for president than Bush. I'm dumbfounded when I look at his religious views, his willingness to use them in policy formulation, and his total disregard for individual rights and the constitution. It pains me to see how far our nation has declined.





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Post 3

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 2:41pmSanction this postReply
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Saying Bush is not libertarian "with the possible exception of tax cuts." is a gimmick.  There are no libertarian motivations for anything Bush does.  But his intentions are certainly not "fobbing off a responsibility on a later generation".  This doesn't even qualify as a rhetorical half truth.  This kind of gimmicky writing does not appeal to me regardless of whether or not I agree with what the writer appears to be trying to say.

Here is the Bush administration spending record.

" It pains me to see how far our nation has declined. " 

I don't see this.  I see a country at war, with good reason.   This, however, disturbs me:  On the day that Congress surrendered...




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Post 4

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 6:32pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Mike,

We agree on several points:
- Gimmicky reporting is despicable and doesn't appeal to me either - irresponsible reporting is part of what brought us here.
- Bush does not do anything for libertarian motivations
- We both believe that the government needs to wage war on terrorism.
- We both want an effective war on terror (but we might or might not agree on how).

The decline I speak of is the political corruption, the patriot act, the faith-based initiatives, the lack of public outrage with all that's wrong, the blatant disregard for probable cause, the outrage of spending American money and lives to create a democracy in a country where it won't take, the decline in ethics across the board, and more.

You don't think the nation has declined?



Post 5

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

Okay. Libertarians can be 'whacky' and Reason magazine has 'faults,' but -- and forgive me for being like a bulldog here with you on this -- but what would you have to say about the following quote, spoken with somewhat of a Russian accent? ...

=================
"But the majority of people ha[ve] never been given a choice. You know that both parties today are for socialism, in effect, for controls. And there is no party -- there are no voices -- to offer an actual, pro-capitalist, laissez-faire economic freedom and individualism. That is what this country needs today."
=================

From:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wsr768hdk4&mode=related&search=
[minute marker 8:45-9:15]

My question -- which deals with this ex-Russian woman's evaluation of what the U.S. "needs" -- is simple and direct and appeals to Steve's inquiry: Do we "need" this any less, now (or, perhaps, moreso than ever)?

Ed



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Post 6

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

"The decline I speak of is the political corruption, the patriot act, the faith-based initiatives, the lack of public outrage with all that's wrong, the blatant disregard for probable cause, the outrage of spending American money and lives to create a democracy in a country where it won't take, the decline in ethics across the board, and more."

The rule as far as political corruption goes for any politcal party is whatever anyone can get away with and has been so for both of our lifetimes.  Politics is what it is.  I don't see a "decline" here.  As far as the Patriot Act,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act , it was renewed less than a year ago by a very large margin in both the Senate and House.  I believe the Patriot Act is an attempt to cripple the activities of terrorists and those who would fund them in our own country.  Considering how 911 was accomplished that seems a reasonable thing to do.  By "blatent disregard for probable cause" I'm sure you are thinking about the Patriot Act as well. 

The only "faith based" initiative I'm aware of is in regard to stem cell research and the public funding of it.  My general attitude towards the hazards of Bushs "faith" I expressed in one of my first posts on SoloHQ:

" I am an atheist but not particularly afraid of Bush's plans to remake the U.S. is some fundamental religious way.  It's not going to happen.  I believe Socialism is a religion.  They definitely plan to take absolute control of everyones lives.  That's what I'm afraid of.  All of my votes have one purpose: advance individualism, defeat collectivism.  I think only incremental progress is possible. "

 As far as the war in Iraq, please refer to the link to Robert Bidinotto's blog in my previous post.  I'd like to add that one of my wife's daughters friends, a 30 year old woman, is a Marine officer serving as a helicopter pilot in Iraq presently.  Though I fear for her every day I'm proud to have even that tenuous a link to one of the greatest warriors the world has ever known.  They are not conscripts, they are the best trained and best equiped warriors that have ever lived.  They are certainly not "children", a term I was disgusted to see used recently with reference to the soldiers in Iraq.

I do not see a "decline in ethics across the board" but the same general lack of ethics in politics that I have always seen. 




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Post 7

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 11:19pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

I've often admired the sharpness of the logic I've seen in many of your posts. But not this time.

========= You give away the moral high ground to the crooks =========

You said, "The rule as far as political corruption goes for any political party is whatever anyone can get away with and has been so for both of our lifetimes."

I'm certain you would never want to do anything that enabled corruption. Well, that statement gives an ethical carte blanche to the political crooks.

You said, "Politics is what it is." That is worse because politics is not what it is, it is what people let it be. We have to attack corrupt politics everywhere it exists and under all conditions. We have to show the ethical and epistemological roots of the bad politics. We can't just accept what is or claim it isn't getting worse.

========= A majority vote in congress doesn't equal individual rights =========

The fact that the patriot act was passed by a majority is a sign of our decline - not a justification. It shows how easy those who would control us all can use crisis politics to march us a large step closer to being a police state.

A majority vote can not wipe away the shame of throwing out Habeas Corpus which has been a legal protection of the first order for centuries.

========= We have suffered major declines in rights protections ===========

You don't cripple terrorism by destroying our freedoms and turning us into a police state. That gives them a win they could never have had on their own. Probable cause, Habeas Corpus, violation of all private communications, no-knock entries, warrantless searches, torture as an accepted tool, secret prisons, a congressionally undeclared 'war' lasting longer than World War II - is that the America you remember?

========= We aren't fighting terrorism effectively at all ==========

And what we are doing is not fighting terrorism. No, we are rebuilding a nation with our money, blood and what is left of our national will for people that don't want us there and don't understand freedom or democracy - neither of which will be there after we leave
.
We are seeing brave American soldiers killed by a militia that we don't get to take on because it isn't politically correct. We see Americans killed with weapons paid for by Saudis, while we pretend they are our friends. We aren't doing anything about Iran (what happened to concern about WMD?) or Syria and are ineffectual in Afghanistan which will be back under the Taliban before many more years and we are playing support-the-dictator again in Pakistan. There is no reason to this insane absence of a national purpose. Terrorism is, at its root, an ideological movement and requires extensive, on-going financial support but we aren't attacking either of those avenues (except in a feeble way).

======== You should be afraid of faith in government=========

There are prayer groups in the West Wing, funding of faith-based groups began as soon as Bush was in office, the man believes in the efficacy of prayer and that he is doing God's will. We saw the Supreme Court Nominees meet the Religious Right's litmus tests. The battle between faith and reason is on a more fundamental level than what happens in ethics which in turn determines what happens in politics. The most basic premise determines who wins the argument. When we allow the separation of church and state fade away the game is lost. The conservatives have been the worst enemies of freedom because on the surface they seem closer to liberty, to freedom, and more practical, but in the end they give away the whole store. In Bush's fight against the Islamic non-believers he is willing to sacrifice anything it takes. Anyone who believes in faith deeply enough will never be able to defend freedom.

========== The decline is nearly everywhere ===============

The decline in ethics is measurable and sad. From the increased number of businesses that earn funds from laws they bought, to the CEOs that rape their stockholders, to Enron and the corrupt accounting firm support, to the increased number of political scandals, to the legal professions turning tort law into prostitution - ethical decline is everywhere you look.




Post 8

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 11:41pmSanction this postReply
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When Rand gave the Wallace interview, mentioning how the U.S. had become collectivist and needed help in order to reverse this, the federal tax revenue was at 38.5 Billion.

http://www.bea.gov/bea/ARTICLES/2004/06June/0604tax.pdf

In 2001, federal tax revenue was 1 trillion (a 26-fold increase). Punching in the relevant dates (1959 and 2001) into an online inflation calculator at ...

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

... reveals that the dollar was inflated roughly 6-fold (a dollar in 1959 having the buying power of 6 dollars in 2001). The majority of this discrepancy in federal revenue then, comes from a dramatic increase in statism in the US, in those 42 years between 1959 and 2001.

Do these numbers lie?

Ed





Post 9

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 11:52pmSanction this postReply
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Here is a PARTIAL list of political scandals during the last 50 years - notice the increase in recent years. It is still pretty rough and has duplicates as well as missing entries.

My intent is to leave off anything that is just an allegation, or a sex scandal that doesn't involve high levels of hypocrisy or cover-up.

I've just started putting it together. Here are some of the sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_of_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_"-gate"_suffix

----------------------------

• Bobby Baker (1963) aide to LBJ was involved with underworld figures
• Adam Clayton Powell, Jr. of New York expelled from Congress (1967) but re-elected anyway
• Senator Thomas J. Dodd censured for financial misconduct and corruption (1967)
• Supreme Court Associate Justice Abe Fortas resigns in financial scandal (1969) that emerged during his nomination to become Chief Justice
• Bebe Rebozo (1973) — investigated for accepting large contribution to Nixon campaign.
• Nixon Jewelry (1974) Violation of Foreign Gifts and Decorations Act of 1881, as amended in 1966.
• Spiro T. Agnew scandal (1973)
• Judge Otto Kerner, Jr. resigned U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals (1974) after exhausting appeals in conviction for bribery, mail fraud, conspiracy, and tax evasion while Kerner was Governor of Illinois
• John Connally Milk Money scandal (1975)
• "Lancegate": President Carter's OMB Director Bert Lance resignation amidst allegations of misuse of funds (1977)
• Jimmy Carter's Chief of Staff Hamilton Jordan target of special prosecution (beginning 1979)
• "Billygate": President Jimmy Carter's brother Billy Carter was found to be a paid agent of the government of Libya (1980); ensuing scandal did not help President Carter's bid for re-election in 1980
• Tongsun Park "Koreagate" scandal involving alleged bribery of more than 100 members of Congress by South Korean government; charges were pressed only against congressmen Richard T. Hanna (convicted) and Otto E. Passman (not prosecuted because of illness); also implicated was South Korean President Park Chung Hee (1977-1980)
• Senator Herman Talmadge of Georgia punished after his ex-wife produced cash "gifts" he had hidden in an overcoat (1979); Talmadge later wrote, "I wish I'd burned that damn overcoat and charged everything on American Express." Talmadge the same year admitted to having spent five weeks in alcohol rehabilitation; he was not re-elected to the Senate in 1980.
• William Casey insider trading (1983)
• 1983 Congressional page sex scandal: Daniel Crane, a Republican from Illinois, had sex with a 17-year old female page. Without the character to resign, Crane apologized, asked forgiveness and campaigned to stay in office.
• 1983, further Congressional page sex scandal: Gerry Studds, a Democrat from Massachusetts, had sex with a 17-year old male page. He also gave alcohol to a minor. He did not apologize. And Studds was found to have propositioned other male pages, both 16 and 17-years of age.
• Both Crane and Studds were censured by the House, but not expelled. Crane was thankfully sent packing at the polls in 1984. But Studds was re-elected and served in the House another 13 years.
• Savings and loan scandal and the Keating Five (1980-1989): Alan Cranston, Dennis DeConcini, Don Riegle, John Glenn, and John McCain. The Keating Five scandal from 1989 implicated five senators in another corruption probe. Democrats Dennis DeConcini of Arizona, Donald Riegle of Michigan, John Glenn of Ohio and Alan Cranston of California, and Republican John McCain of Arizona, were accused of strong-arming federal officials to back off their investigation of Charles Keating, former chairman of the Lincoln Savings and Loan association. In exchange, the senators reportedly received close to $1.3 million in campaign contributions.
• Preferential treatment for military contractor Wedtech implicates Attorney General Edwin Meese and White House aide Lynn Nofziger (1987)
• Robert Bernard Anderson former US Secretary of Treasury pleaded guilty to owning an offshore bank. (1987).
• Senator John Tower's nomination as Defense Secretary derailed due to allegations of habitual and extreme alcohol abuse and improper ties to defense industry (1987)
• Mario Biaggi convicted (1988) in Wedtech scandal of bribery, extortion, racketeering, filing a false tax return, mail fraud, and false financial disclosure; resigned from U.S. House before he could be expelled
• Speaker of the U.S. House Jim Wright from Texas forced to resign after ethics committee investigation found dozens of violations of House rules, including alleged improper receipt of $145,000 in gifts by Wright's wife from a Fort Worth developer and large profits from "sale" of Wright's speeches (1989)
• Anthony Lee Coelho of California resigns from U.S. House for unethical finance practices including "junk bond" deal (1989)
• Alcee Hastings, federal district court judge impeached by the U.S. Senate (1989) and convicted of soliciting a bribe; subsequently elected (1992) to U.S. House as a congressional representitive for Florida. Today, as a Senior Democratic Whip, Hastings is an influential member of the Democratic Leadership. Congressman Hastings is also a member of the powerful House Rules Committee and is a senior Member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI). On the HPSCI, Hastings is the Ranking Democratic Member of the Subcommittee on Terrorism and Homeland Security. In 1981 Judge Hastings was charged with accepting a $150,000 bribe in 1981 in exchange for a lenient sentence and a return of seized assets for 21 counts of racketeering by Frank and Thomas Romano, and of perjury in his testimony about the case. He was acquitted by a jury after his alleged co-conspirator, William Borders, refused to testify in court (resulting in a jail sentence for Borders). In 1989, the Democratic-controlled U.S. House of Representatives took up the case, and Hastings was impeached for bribery and perjury by a vote of 413-3. Voters to impeach included Reps. Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer, John Conyers and Charles Rangel. He was then convicted by the United States Senate, becoming the sixth Judge in the history of the United States to be removed from office by the Senate. The Senate had the option to forbid Hastings from ever seeking federal office again, but did not do so. Alleged co-conspirator William Borders went to jail again for refusing to testify in the impeachment proceedings, but was later given a full pardon by Bill Clinton during the end of his Presidency.
• Senator David Durenberger denounced by Senate for unethical financial transactions (1990)
• Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) scandal implicates former Defense Secretary and Washington insider Clark Clifford (1991)
• House banking scandal (1992)
• Mary Rose Oakar (1992) allegations of "ghost employees" on payroll
• President George H.W. Bush's pardon of 6 Iran-Contra affair figures on December 24, 1992 after he had failed to win a second term, days before the perjury trial of Casper Weinberger was scheduled to begin.
• Travelgate (1993)
• Dan Rostenkowski and other Democratic Members of Congress in the Congressional Post Office Scandal (1991 - 1995)
• White House Coffees and Lincoln Bedroom sales -- political donations linked to access to President Clinton, including the apparent sale of "coffees" with him, and what amounted to the renting out of the Lincoln Bedroom.
• Walter Fauntroy, Delegate to Congress from the District of Columbia, guilty plea regarding lying on financial disclosure form (1995)
• Commerce Secretary Ron Brown investigated (1995)
• The 1996 U.S. campaign finance scandal, also known as Chinagate, refers to alleged efforts by the People's Republic of China (PRC) to influence domestic United States politics prior to and during the Clinton Administration as well as the fundraising practices of the administration itself.
• Americorps head Eli Segal investigated (1996)
• Wes Cooley (1996)
• Walter R. Tucker III of California resigned before bribery conviction (1996)
• Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich financial improprieties leading to House reprimand and assessment of $300,000 sanction (1997)
• Secretary of Agriculture Michael Espy forced to resign from office despite ultimate acquittal on criminal corruption charges (1998)
• Vice-President Al Gore (1998) allegations of improper fundraising and "no controlling legal authority" defense
• Teamstergate Ron Carey's and Bill Clinton's 1996 campaigns for the Presidency of the union and the United States, respectively, swapped Teamsters' Union general treasury funds into Clinton's campaign, for Clinton Campaign funds into Ron Carey's campaign war chest. The Teamsters' political director was jailed. No Clinton officials were charged. Carey's re-election was invalidated; James Hoffa, Jr. was elected when Teamsters election was rerun.
• Henry Cisneros resigns as Housing Secretary and, after lengthy probe that began in 1995, pleads guilty (1999) to lying to the FBI about money he paid former mistress Linda Medlar a.k.a. Linda Jones; later pardoned by President Clinton in 2001 (Possibly reclassify or cross-reference to Sex scandal)
• Pardongate (1999 - 2001) -- Bill Clinton appeared to write out pardons, during his lame duck tenure, in response to massive contributions linked to the pardoned. This included a scandal which has become traditional for departing presidents; the sudden flurry of pardons during the final month in office, which would probably not have been deemed tolerable at any other time.
• Enron collapse (2002) leading to investigation of Kenneth Lay, a top political ally and financial donor to the election campaign of President George W. Bush; Lay, who had been named as a leading candidate for Secretary of the Treasury, eventually indicted (2004). Attempts to link individual politicians with the Enron malfeasance have not been particularly successful, perhaps partly due to the fact that so many politicians of both major parties received campaign contributions (including 158 Republicans and 100 Democrats in Congress (as of 2001) [1]).
• Jim Traficant (D-OH) financial corruption conviction and expulsion from House (2002)
• Robert Torricelli (D-NJ) bribery scandal (2002)
• Bill Frist (R-TN), becomes Senate majority leader and is alleged to have been deeply involved in campaign finance improprieties. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating insider-trading issues in connection with Frist's July 2005 sale of Hospital Corporation of America shares immediately before the stock's value fell precipitously.
• Yellowcake forgery. Evidence alleged to be forged was presented in the case for 2003 invasion of Iraq (2003); related Valerie Plame affair (2004), eventually implicating Vice Presidential Chief of Staff, Scooter Libby (indicted 2005 for perjury)
• Tom DeLay (R-TX), reprimanded twice by House Ethics Committee and aides indicted (2004-2005); eventually DeLay himself was indicted (October 2005); Delay resigned from the House 6 June, 2006
• Bush administration payment of columnists including Armstrong Williams, Maggie Gallagher and Michael McManus (2004-2005)
• Duke Cunningham (R-CA) resigned from the House of Representatives and pleaded guilty on November 28, 2005 to charges of conspiracy to commit bribery, mail fraud and wire fraud, and tax evasion for underreporting his income in 2004. Prosecutors said Cunningham admitted to receiving at least $2.4 million in bribes.
• Jack Abramoff, Republican lobbyist and key figure in Tom DeLay scandal, is indicted on wire fraud charges (August 2005). Representative Robert Ney (R-OH) is named as "Representative No. 1" in the indictment of Abramoff associate Michael Scanlon. Other members of Congress associated with Abramoff include Sen. David Vitter (R-LA), Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV), Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA), Rep. John Doolittle (R-CA), Rep. J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ), Rep. Don Young (R-AK), James Clyburn (D-SC), and Bennie Thompson (D-MS).
• Abramoff-Reed Indian Gambling Scandal A separate grand jury investigation involving Jack Abramoff, Ralph Reed and Grover Norquist
• Rep. John Doolittle (R-CA) found to be funneling 15% of all PAC funds to his wife (nearly $180,000 since 2001) who also took money from Abramhoff directly and money from one of the lobbying firms associated with Tom Delay. Doolittle recieved about $50,000 from clients of Abramhoff and about $14,000 from Abramhoff personally. He received $118,000 from Perfect Wave and it's owner - they received $37 million as earmarks created by Doolittle.
• Rep. Richard Pombo (R-CA)has taken more money from Abramoff than any other member of Congress ($500,000). he is under investigation as part of the corruption and influence-peddling scandal surrounding Abramhoff. Pombo used his campaign and PAC funds to pay his brother Randall $272,000 and $3,000/month to his wife. The list of corrupt behaviors listed on Wikipedia for Pombo are too numerous to detail here.
• Rep. Curtis Weldon (R-PA) is under investigating by the Justice Department for whether Weldon illegally traded his political influence for lucrative lobbying and consulting contracts for his daughter. This represents a more serious investigation following on the heels of an FBI probe, ongoing for the past several months, into similar charges. Weldon is currently facing a criminal investigation by the Justice Department's Public Integrity Section for suspected unlawful ties to two Russian companies and two Serbian brothers with links to alleged war criminal Slobodan Milosevic.
• Rep. William Ney (R-OH) - On May 18, 2006, the House Ethics Committee announced an investigation into bribery allegations against Ney. On 7 August 2006, Ney announced that he was withdrawing from the 2006 election race. On September 15, 2006, the Justice Department filed Ney's guilty pleas to a charge of conspiracy to defraud the United States and to a charge of falsifying financial disclosure forms. Both charges are related to actions taken on behalf of Abramoff's clients in exchange for bribes, as well as separate actions taken on behalf of a foreign businessman in exchange for over $50,000 in gambling sprees at foreign private casinos.[1] Ney is the first member of Congress to admit to criminal charges in the Abramoff investigation, which has focused on the actions of several current and former Republican lawmakers who had been close to the former lobbyist.
• William Jefferson (D-LA) under investigation for bribery after the FBI seized $90,000 of a $100,000 bribery payment from Jefferson's home freezer (August 2005). He was videotaped accepting the $100,000 bribe and asking for a further $500,000. He was re-elected despite the scandal. It now appears that he will be offered a seat on the Small Business Committee by Pelosi even though he will be indicted. Two of his associates have already pled guilty to bribing him, and both have been sentenced to significant jail time.
• Tom DeLay (R-Texas), who was indicted on money-laundering charges;
• Bob Ney (R-Ohio), who pleaded guilty of corruption charges arising from his relationship with disgraced former lobbyist Jack Abramoff
• David Safavian, Bush administration official was convicted from charges related to lobbyist Jack Abramoff - also, there was the resignation of Susan Ralston, an aide to top presidential political adviser Karl Rove.
• Rep. Mark Foley (R-FL), chairman of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children and zealous champion of get-tough legislation against pedophiles, resigns from House of Representatives 29 September 2006, after reports he sent inappropriate sexually oriented e-mails and instant messages to underage male congressional pages. (Also listed under "Sex Scandals.")

• ----- State and Local Scandals --------
• Alabama Governor Harold Guy Hunt convicted of improperly using campaign money and removed from office (1993)
• Arizona Governor Evan Mecham impeached and removed from office 1988, faced with recall, pending criminal charges for illegal financial dealings (of which he was later acquitted), and public outcry over his derogatory remarks about African-Americans and gays, and his cancellation of Arizona's observance of the Martin Luther King holiday (which led to a boycott of Arizona by various groups)
• Arizona "AZSCAM" legislators caught on videotape taking payoffs for favors to gambling figure
• Arizona Governor John Fife Symington III convicted of fraud (1997)
• Arkansas Governor Powell Clayton investigated for corruption but cleared (1868-1871)
• Arkansas Governor James Guy Tucker, Jr., convicted of fraud conspiracy (1996); See related Whitewater scandal, under Federal-Level Scandals
• Arkansas Governor William Jefferson Clinton: See Federal-level scandals, which dogged President Clinton
• California San Francisco Mayor Eugene Edward Schmitz convicted of graft and bribery, including misconduct during the Great Earthquake (1906-1907); convictions later overturned on appeal.
• California State Senator and Senate Insurance Committee Chairman Alan Robbins resigned on November 21, 1991, in advance of pleading guilty to federal racketeering charges in connection with insurance-industry bribes.
• California Insurance Commissioner Chuck Quackenbush resigned on June 28, 2000, rather than face impeachment for campaign-finance violations arising out of insurance-industry settlements after the 1994 Northridge earthquake.
• Connecticut Republican Governor John Rowland Corruption
• District of Columbia Democratic Mayor Marion Barry caught on videotape using drugs in an FBI sting
• Florida Governor Harrison Reed subjected to three separate impeachment inquiries (1868-1872)
• Illinois Chicago Hired Truck Program
• Illinois Republican Governor George H. Ryan involved in sale of government licenses and contracts while he was Secretary of State
• Illinois Governor Lennington Small, associate of Al Capone, embezzled, sold pardons, etc., but was never convicted
• Illinois Chicago alderman "Bathhouse John" Coughlin graft operation with fellow alderman Michael "Hinky Dink" Kenna, the so-called "Lords of the Levee" extracting protection payments from gambling and prostitution
• Illinois Chicago Mayor William Hale Thompson, years of ongoing corruption
• Illinois Governor Otto Kerner, Jr. bribery, mail fraud, conspiracy, and tax evasion: see Federal-Level Scandals, as Kerner was found out and convicted after becoming a federal judge
• Illinois former Governor Daniel Walker convicted (1987) of wrongdoing in connection with Savings & Loan and sentenced to federal penitentiary
• Illinois Operation Greylord, involving influence peddling and bribery of Circuit Court judges (1980s). Operation Greylord was an FBI investigation of judicial corruption in Cook County, Illinois, in the 1980s. 92 people were indicted, including 17 judges, 48 lawyers, 8 policemen, 10 deputy sheriffs, 8 court officials, and 1 state legislator. Operation Greylord was named after the curly wigs worn by British judges.
• Illinois state senator . Bruce A. Farley sentenced to 18 months in prison for mail fraud. 1999.
• Illinois state senator John A. D’Arco Jr. served about 3 years in prison for bribery and extortion. 1995.
• Illinois Chicago alderman Larence S. Bloom sentenced to 6 months in 1999 for filing a false tax return.
• Illinois Chicago alderman Jesse J. Evans sentenced to 41 months in prison in 1997 for racketeering, extortion conspiracy, attempted extortion, mail fraud, influence peddling, filing false tax returns, and obstruction of justice.
• Illinois Chicago alderman Percy Giles sentenced to 3 years in prison for racketeering, extortion, among other things in 2000.
• Illinois Chicago alderman Virgil E. Jones Jr. in 1999 was sentenced to 2 and a half years in prison for extortion.
• Illinois Chicago city clerk Walter S. Kozubowski was sentenced to 5 years in prison for mail fraud.
• Illinois Chicago alderman John S. Madrzyk sentenced to 41 months in prison for mail fraud.
• Illinois Chicago alderman Joseph A. Martνnez in 1998 pleaded guilty to ghost payrolling and was sentenced to 5 months in prison.
• Illinois Chicago alderman Ambrosio Medrano pleaded guilty to extortion in 1996 and was sentenced to 30 months in prison.
• Illinois Chicago alderman Allan J. Streeter pleaded guilty to extortion and was sentenced to prison in 1998.
• Illinois Chicago alderman Fred B. Roti was sentenced to 48 months in 1993 for racketeering, conspiracy, bribery, among other things.
• Illinois Chicago judge Thomas J. Maloney Jr. sentenced to almost 16 years in prison for taking bribes. 1994.
• Illinois Chicago treasurer Edward Rosewell pleaded guilty to mail fraud but was not sentenced due to an illness that he died from soon after. His conviction was vacated in 1999.
• Illinois Chicago City Treasurer Miriam Santos originally sentenced to 40 months for extortion and mail fraud but the sentence was overturned on appeal.She subsequently pleaded guilty to mail fraud and sentenced to 3 months, only served 17 days in prison.
• Indiana Governor Warren McCray: forced to resign after conviction for mail fraud (1924)
• Indiana Governor Edward F. Jackson: taking bribes and trying to bribe a previous Governor on behalf of the Ku Klux Klan (1928)
• Kansas Governor Charles Robinson impeached but acquitted of state bond scheme (1862)
• Kentucky State Treasurer James Williams "Honest Dick" Tate ran off with the entire state treasury and was impeached (1888)
• Kentucky 1899 gubernatorial election dispute leading to armed conflict and assassination of William Goebel (1900)
• Kentucky Majority leader Don Blandford, of the Kentucky House of Representatives sent to prison for taking bribes in 1992. (approximately 10% of Kentucky's legislature was implicated in this scandal, some took bribes for as little as $100).
• Louisiana In what was called the Louisiana Scandals, Governor Richard W. Leche (and others including the LSU president) were convicted of corruption relating to the influence of the followers of Huey Long and the Long family.
• Louisiana Democratic Governor Earl Long committed to insane asylum while in office
• Louisiana Governor Edwin Edwards convicted of extortion (2000)
• Maryland Governor Spiro Agnew (see Federal-level Scandals, as his gubernatorial misconduct did not catch up to him until after he was Vice-President of the United States)
• Maryland Governor Marvin Mandel convicted of mail fraud and racketeering (1977)
• Maryland State Senator Tommie Broadwater, Jr., convicted of food stamp fraud (1983)
• Maryland State Sen. Larry Young forced out of office despite acquittal on corruption charges (1990's)
• Maryland Lobbyist Bruce C. Bereano convicted of mail fraud in connection with campaign contributions (1990's), but later returned to lobbying in Annapolis
• Maryland politician Ruthann Aron (Montgomery County Planning Board member and former 1994 Republican candidate for U.S. Senate) who ran on a "tough on crime" platform convicted of hiring "contract" hit man William H. Mossburg Jr., in 1997, to kill her husband and a lawyer (1998)
• Maryland Lobbyist Gerard E. Evans convicted of fraud after dummying up legislation and collecting fees from clients to fight it
• Maryland Banker Nathan A. Chapman Jr. found guilty of defrauding the state retirement system. State
• Maryland Police Superintendent Edward T. Norris convicted of spending police money for personal uses while Baltimore's police chief
• Maryland Senate President Thomas V. Mike Miller, Jr. telephoning Maryland Court of Appeals Judges ex parte, trying to lobby them not to overturn the unconstitutional redistricting plan he had championed (2002)
• Maryland Former Maryland state senator Thomas L. Bromwell indicted (2005) on 30 counts of federal racketeering, corruption, and fraud charges, in alleged six-year conspiracy ending in 2004, to wield influence to benefit construction company Poole and Kent, in exchange for concealed payments and other favors
• Massachusetts politician James Michael Curley, various allegations of corruption and a few convictions in first half of twentieth century
• Minnesota state senator Sam Solon Pleaded guilty in 1995 to telecommunications fraud for letting his ex-wife make $2,430 in calls on his State Senate telephone line.
• Minnesota Minneapolis city council members Brian Herron (taped by FBI accepting $10,000 bribe in 2001) and Joe Biernat (accepting free plumbing work on house)
• Minnesota Democratic consultant and businessman Pat Forciea convicted of extensive bank fraud charges
• Mississippi Governor John A. Quitman resigned (1851) after indictment for violation of Neutrality Act in connection with Cuban insurrection against Spain (later acquitted of charges)
• Missouri Thomas J. Pendergast "machine boss" in Kansas City convicted of tax fraud (1939)
• Nebraska Governor David C. Butler impeached and removed from office (1871)
• Nebraska State Treasurer Lorelee Byrd accused of massive improper check-writing; guilty plea to one misdemeanor charge of official misconduct (2005) and resignation (2006)
• Nebraska Omaha City Councilman Chuck Sigerson and former Douglas County Election Commissioner Pat McPherson accused (2005) of groping a 17-year-old girl wearing Red Robin mascot costume at a local Red Robin restaurant: McPherson resigned but was acquitted; mistrial in Sigerson case (Possibly reclassify as Sex scandal, although essential allegation was offensive assault: unwelcome touching and lifting of skirt to expose underwear)
• Nebraska State Treasurer Frank Marsh convicted of misdemeanor charges for making personal, long-distance telephone calls (1991)
• Nebraska Omaha Mayor Mike Boyle was recalled in a special election after being accused of misconduct in office (1987)
• Nebraska Attorney General Paul Douglas impeached by Legislature for his dealings with the head of a failed savings and loan (1984)
• New Hampshire former Governor Llewelyn Sherman Adams Chief of Staff to President Eisenhower forced from office in "Vicuna Coat" scandal involving giving special favors to givers of gifts (1958)
• New Jersey Jersey City Mayor Frank Hague resigns as mayor (1947) amid accusations of widespread corruption; resigns other party offices later on
• New Jersey Democratic Governor Jim McGreevey sex and corruption scandal (2004)
• New York Tammany Hall (1854-1934) See Federal-level scandals, because the influence of the New York City political machine was felt at the national level
• New York highest court Chief Judge Sol Wachtler, scandal involving obsence telephone calls and extortion (1993)
• New York Lee Alexander, Syracuse mayor, pleaded guilty to racketeering and tax evasion. Served 6 years in prison.
• North Carolina Governor William Woods Holden impeached and removed from office in corruption scandal (1870)
• North Dakota Governor William Langer removed from office (1934) for alleged racketeering
• Dakota Territorial Governor Nehemiah Ordway corruption (1884) See Federal-level scandals.
• Ohio Cincinnati City Council member (and later Mayor) Jerry Springer resigned (1974) after vice investigation uncovered personal check he had paid a prostitute
• Ohio Summit County Probate Judge James V. Barbuto corruption by trading sexual favors with female defendants for leniency in their cases, exposed on national TV by Geraldo Rivera (1980) (classified here because it was less a Sex Scandal than a "crooked judge" scandal, although Geraldo played up Judge Barbuto's preference for being spanked while wearing women's undergarments)
• Ohio Governor Bob Taft pleads no contest and is convicted on four first-degree misdemeanor ethics violations (2005)
• Ohio Bureau of Workers' Compensation loss of $215 million in high-risk fund run by big contributor to political campaigns (Pittsburgh businessman Mark D. Lay), and loss of state funds in $50 million rare-coin investment of prominent campaign contributor Tom Noe (2005)
• Thomas Noe, Republican fund raiser and Ohio state workman’s compensation fund manager was sentenced to 18 years following conviction on 29 out of 40 charges of theft, forgery, and criminal activity. This was in addition to the two years and three months for the September 2006 conviction for charges of illegally funneling money to President Bush's reelection campaign.
• Oklahoma Governor John C. Walton impeached and removed (1923)
• Oklahoma Governor Harry S. Johnston impeached twice, second time convicted and removed (1928-1929)
• Oklahoma After his term, Governor David Hall convicted of criminal financial acts committed while in office (1975)
• Oklahoma OkScam, or the County Comissioner scandal, a purchasing kickback scandal resulting in the conviction of 200 individuals, including over 2/3rds of the sitting county comissioners, representing 60 of 77 Oklahoma counties (1981-1984)
• Oklahoma Governor David Lee Walters pleaded guilty to misdemeanor election law violation (1993)
• Oregon Governor La Fayette Grover (later U.S. Senator) implicated, but eventually exonerated, in vote-rigging scheme to give Oregon's electoral votes in the 1876 presidential election to Democrat Samuel Tilden
• Pennsylvania State Treasurer Budd Dwyer committed suicide on television before he was to be sentenced on bribery and related convictions (1987)
• Rhode Island Providence Mayor Vincent Cianci convicted of racketeering conspiracy (2002)
• Tennessee Governor Ray Blanton loses his reelection bid after exposure of a bribery scandal, (1976-1979)
• Tennessee State Senators John Ford, Kathryn Bowers, Ward Crutchfield accused of bribery among other charges in Operation Tennessee Waltz scandal (2005). Operation Tennessee Waltz, was set up by federal and state law enforcement agents, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. The operation led to the arrest of seven Tennessee state lawmakers and two men identified as "bagmen" in the indictment on the morning of May 26, 2005 on bribery charges. The FBI and TBI followed these arrests with an additional arrest of two county commissioners, one from Hamilton County, and the other a member of the prominent Hooks family, of Memphis. Investigators also arrested a former county administrator.
• Texas Governor James Edward Ferguson impeached and removed from office for financial misconduct (1917)
• Texas Governor Miriam "Ma" Ferguson, first woman elected Governor of a state in the U.S. and wife of the removed ex-governor, was implicated in the same financial improprieties that had brought "Pa" down and lost the Democratic primary in 1926
• Texas George Parr, the so-called "Duke of Duval County," suspected but never convicted of various illegal activities, including ballot box stuffing and fraud (1905-1975)
• Texas The Veterans Land Board Scandal tainted many prominent state politicians, including Governor Allan Shivers. (1954)
• Texas Sharpstown scandal (1971-1972)
• Washington Spokane Mayor James West, an opponent of gay rights, denied accusatinos of having molested two boys while he was a sheriff’s deputy and Boy Scout leader in the late 1970's and early 1980's, but came under investigation (2005) for offering municipal jobs to men he met in gay online chat rooms; West was ousted in recall vote December 2005
• Wisconsin Governor William Augustus Barstow resigned 1856 amid investigation of corrupt business practices and election wrongdoing
• Wisconsin Caucus Scandal, 2002

• --------------- Sex Scandals ------------
• Walter Jenkins (1964)
• Neil Goldschmidt (D-OR) former Oregon governor — affair with underage female, 1970s
• Wilbur Mills-Fanne Foxe (1974)
• Wayne Hays-Elizabeth Ray scandal (1976)
• John Young of Texas (1976)
• Allan Howe of Utah (1976)
• Fred Richmond of New York (1978)
• Robert Bauman of Maryland (1980)
• Jon Hinson of Mississippi (1981)
• Thomas Evans-Paula Parkinson (1981)
• John G. Schmitz (R-CA) — Extramarital affair resulting in offspring (1982)
• Dan Crane of Illinois and Gerry Studds of Massachusetts censured July 20, 1983 in Congressional Page sex scandal (1983)
• Gary Hart-Donna Rice scandal (1987)
• Ernie Konnyu of California (1987)
• Washington Senator Brock Adams (1988)
• Jim Bates of California (1988)
• Gus Savage of Illinois (1989)
• Barney Frank of Massachusetts (1989) In 1990, the House voted to reprimand Frank when it was revealed that Steve Gobie, a male prostitute that Rep. Frank had befriended after hiring him through a personal advertisement, claimed to have conducted a prostitution ring from Frank's apartment when he was not at home. Frank had dismissed Gobie earlier that year, and reported the incident to the House Ethics Committee, after learning of Gobie's activities. After an investigation, the House Ethics Committee found no evidence that Frank had known of or been involved in the alleged illegal activity.[1] The Boston Globe, among others, called on Frank to resign, but he refused. The House Ethics Committee recommended Frank be reprimanded because he "reflected discredit upon the House" by using his congressional office to fix 33 of Gobie's parking tickets. Attempts to expel or censure Frank failed; instead the House voted 408-18 to reprimand him. This condemnation was not reflected in Frank's district, where he won re-election in 1990 with 66 percent of the vote, and has won by larger margins ever since. During a GOP campaign concerning homosexuality, Frank threatened to out a number of "gay-baiting" Republican fellow congressmen
• Donald "Buz" Lukens of Ohio, multiple scandals (1989, 1990) On February 1, 1989, an Ohio television station caught Lukens on camera at a Columbus, Ohio, McDonalds restaurant talking with Anna Coffman, the mother of Rosie Coffman, a teenage African-American girl. During the conversation he openly discussed having sexual relations with Rosie. Soon afterward, a grand jury brought charges against him of contributing to the delinquency of a minor because of allegations that he paid Rosie $40 and gifts in exchange for sex when she was 16 years old. (Further allegations had been made that the relationship with Coffman began when she was 13, but a grand jury declined to pursue further charges against Lukens other than the contributing to the delinquency of a minor charge.) On May 26, 1989 a jury in the Franklin County Juvenile Court convicted Lukens of the misdemeanor crime of contributing to the delinquency of a minor for the paying of $40 to Coffman for sex in his Columbus apartment on November 6, 1988. (A friend of Ms. Coffman's, a 19 year old, accompanied her that day, but was not directly involved.) Refusing to resign from his seat, despite the demands of the Republican leadership, Lukens lost the 1990 Republican primary to John A. Boehner. While serving out the remaining months of his congressional term, a Capitol elevator operator accused him of fondling her. Lukens resigned from Congress on October 24, 1990. He was ordered to serve thirty days in jail and see a psychologist, as well as be tested for venereal diseases. (He actually served nine days in jail.) In 1995, the task force investigating the House banking scandal charged him with five counts of bribery and conspiracy related to actions he took while in Congress. He was convicted in March 1996 after a second trial.
• Virginia Senator Chuck Robb-Tai Collins affair (1991) In 1991, Robb admitted that he had spent time with former Miss Virginia Tai Collins alone in a hotel room during the time he was Governor in the 1980's. However, he denied having an affair with her, merely - and arguably somewhat improbably - admitting to sharing a bottle of wine and receiving a nude massage. Collins later told Playboy magazine that the two had been having an affair since 1983. There were also rumors that during the time he was Governor, Robb was present at parties where cocaine was used. He strongly denied this when the issue was raised during his 1988 campaign for the US Senate.
• Oregon Senator Bob Packwood sexual harassment scandal (1995) caused him to resign. 29 women eventually came forward to allege sexual abuse and assaults, dating back over the years. The sexual abuse side of Packwood's problems, played up in the public media, obscured charges that he encouraged offers of financial assistance from lobbyists and other persons who had a particular interest in legislation or issues that Senator Packwood could influence. As the situation developed, he was also charged with trying to obstruct the investigation. Nevertheless, Bob Dole's PAC donated $10,000 to Packwood's defense
• Mel Reynolds of Illinois (1995) In August 1994, he was indicted for having sex with a 16-year-old campaign volunteer. Despite the charges, he continued his campaign and was re-elected in November 1994. Reynolds initially denied the charges, which he claimed were racially motivated. On August 22, 1995 he was convicted on 12 counts of sexual assault, obstruction of justice and solicitation of child pornography. He resigned his seat on October 1, 1995. Currently works for Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition.
• Reynolds was sentenced to five years in prison and expected to be released in 1998. However, in April 1997, he was convicted on 15 unrelated counts of bank fraud and lying to SEC investigators. These charges resulted in an additional sentence of 78 months in federal prison. Reynolds served all of his first sentence and served forty-two months in prison for the later charges. At that point, U.S. President Bill Clinton commuted the sentence for bank fraud. As a result, Reynolds was released from prison and served the remaining time in a half way house. [1][2]
• Bob Livingston of republican representative from Louisiana (1998) - was strongly calling for impeachment of clinton while having a secret extramarital affair of his own. Resigned.
• Bob Barr sexual hypocrisy alleged by Larry Flynt (1998) - Publically a strong supporter of Pro-Life legislation, but at home had his wife get an abortion. Strong 'family values' and anti=porn, but photographed licking whipped cream off two women's breasts and nipples.
• Bill Clinton - Monica Lewinsky scandal (1998)
• Newt Gingrich (R-GA) — affair with congressional staffer 1993-1999
• Jim Guy Tucker, Governor of Arkansas, resigned On 15 July 1996 because of a felony conviction in the Whitewater scandal.
• Gov. Mike Huckabee: The Arkansas Ethics Commission has five times found that he violated state ethics guidelines, including letters of warning and reprimand and fines after finding Huckabee failed to report a $43,150 payment he received from his 1994 lieutenant governor's campaign for use of his personal airplane. (From 1996 through 2006)
• Chandra Levy-Gary Condit (2001) Chandra Levy's disappearance and murder linked with representative Condit - democrat California - who was found to be having an affair with her that he initially lied about.
• Kentucky Governor Paul Patton affair; became public after former mistress alleged retaliation against her business (2002)
• Steven C. LaTourette conservative Republican representative from Ohio, affair with lobbyist - supported Abramoff but didn't take big money from him (2003)
• West Virginia Governor Bob Wise affair with state employee (2003)
• Illinois Republican U.S. Senate candidate Jack Ryan Sex Clubs (2004)
• Ed Schrock (R-VA) alleged to have solicited male prostitutes (2004)
• Don Sherwood (R-PA) — Extramarital affair with accusations of abuse (2004)
• New Jersey Democratic Governor Jim McGreevey – closeted homosexual extramarital affair (2004)
• Mark Foley; sexual harassment of underage male congressional pages (2006)




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Post 10

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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Here is a PARTIAL list of political scandals during the last 50 years - notice the increase in recent years. (Steve Wolfer) (Emphasis mine)
Steve, do you believe that the proof of the country's decline is shown by the increasing frequency of political scandals?

I don't think it does. What is a scandal? A "scandal" only occurs when the press, and then the public, is made aware of the illegal, immoral, or distasteful behavior. Barack Obama may be beating his wife on a regular basis...but if we don't know about it, it's not a scandal. 
My point is that I think all of these things were going on in earlier times as well...but back then there were no cell phone cameras, tiny microphones, the internet, etc. to expose these people. 
I do not believe that there are more skeletons in closets in "recent times", I just think that there is no place to safely hide them anymore.

Erica

By the way, I perused your list a couple of times (quickly, I admit---so I apologize in advance if I missed it) but where the hell are the Kennedys? (any of them, all of them?)




Post 11

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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In addition to Erica's observation about knowing of a scandal (epistemology), I also want to note that actions some consider scandalous others do not (ethics).

For instance, people in other countries consider the Monica Lewinski incident scandalous, not because they considered Clinton wrong to have engaged in it, but because Americans seem unusually preoccupied with the sex lives of world leaders.

I have not sorted through Steve's list to assess the ethical status of each supposed "scandal" but I do maintain a healthy skepticism when people start barking about scandals.  Atlas Shrugged confronted and deflated the issue of adultery "scandals" when Dagny confessed on live radio that she was the mistress of Hank Rearden.




Post 12

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Steve has started coming at the issue in terms of concrete evidence. I prefer to attack the issue in terms of principles -- of what must be true, rather than of what can be demonstrably known to be true (given our current levels of surveillance and counter-surveillance).

If, in 1959, the federal government took in 38.5 Billion in tax revenue; and, by 2001, the dollar had been inflated by a factor of 6 (1 dollar in 1959 buying what 6 dollars could in 2001) -- then a federal revenue of 231 Billion (not 1000 Billion) would match the 1959 revenue in terms; approximately one-fourth of what it actually was in 2001.

And here's the kicker: The inflation already takes into account the increases in the GDP (inflation simply being the growth in the monetary supply that is over and above the growth in production of goods and services), so the argument that we pay more because we're richer now -- doesn't carry any weight.

Using this admittedly crude measure then, "statism" (centralization & redistribution) has increased by a factor of 4 in the U.S. from 1959 to 2001.

Now -- and here is where it gets interesting -- if we increased the centralized redistribution of wealth by a factor of 4, then we've increased (by approximately a factor of 4) the means, motives, and opportunity for political corruption. Have we not? And, if we've quadrupled the incentives, isn't it logical to "expect" a near quadrupling of political corruption -- political corruption just being something inextricably linked to centralization and redistribution?

The prosecution rests its case ...

;-)

Ed



Post 13

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
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Erica,

I am aware of the decline mostly because of my age and the perspective it gives me. That and a keen appreciation for such things. The decline is very general. It is the part that a code of ethics plays in our lives. The change is a generation by generation thing. A large part of it is the natural result of religion losing ground to science combined with the fact that (not counting Objectivism) there is no intelligible ethical system in our culture picking up the slack.

In some ways it is very simple. If the intensity of the support for a given code diminishes, then one of two things happens. Another code steps in to fill the vacuum. Or more people pretend to hold the old principles, but rationalize acting in less principled ways just a little bit more than before. (There are several other major historical trends at work in this issue but I won't go into them here).

Documenting that kind of decline is not an easy task. I have no intention of trying to prove a case here. This is something people will have to think about (if they want) on their own.

You are right that the press now reports things that it didn't before and that changes the statistics. You are right that technology has made it harder to hide. But from my perspective it is clear that ethical standards in Congress (and elsewhere) have significantly declined. As to the Kennedys - Tedd should be there for Chapaquidick.

Erica, I didn't put the list there as evidence. It is for one thing only - to generate a sense of outrage.

The culture will not change the way we would like it too, if we don't believe there is a problem. Or, if we think the problem is unsolvable. Or, if the problem doesn't energize us to do something. Outrage is a good thing. It is what I feel when I see that list.



Post 14

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Your point is a good one. At the top of the list I said, "My intent is to leave off anything that is just an allegation, or a sex scandal that doesn't involve high levels of hypocrisy or cover-up."

I don't care what people do in their sex lives - I wish us well in the pursuit of pleasure. I'm not one of those people who want to moralize about someone being outside of the 'norms' in sexual behavior. America is indeed preoccupied with the sex lives - not just of world leaders, but of everyone!

I agree that adultery should not be on a 'scandal' list - it is no ones business but the parties involved. The list may have a number of entries that are a simple sexua affair and those entries will be removed as I get time. But others will remain because of the hypocrisy or coverup.

Clinton, for example, would stay on the list for two reasons:
1) He behaved in a way that he knew might become public and if it did, it would destroy his ability to lead effectively - in otherwords, massive poor judgement.
2) He lied under oath.
Tedd Kennedy would stay on for Chappaquidick, but the other Kennedys would not be on the list for womanizing.

Luke, if you want, ignore every sex related scandal and just look at the magnitude of what is left.



Post 15

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Actually I didn't post the list of political scandals as evidence - but more as an example of decline and to share something that left me feeling outraged when I saw it.



Post 16

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 11:43amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I get your point and share your outrage (though this might not have been made explicitly clear until now).

It's just my style to prefer laying down as self-evident (to the astute mind) that which is -- and, only then, proceeding to the precise, or even the general, details of the matter.

;-)

And please, don't take this style difference to mean that I don't appreciate the detailed incidences of political corruption you have provided; I do. And I concur with your position that corruption is getting worse (hell, according to the case as I've built it -- it HAS TO GET WORSE through time!).

Ed




Post 17

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I was mistaken in two things:

First, I thought that the decline in ethical behavior was, if not self-evident, at least a shared belief on this this forum. It just didn't occur to me that people would find that a subject of debate.

The second was my imaginging that people would react to that scandal-list the way I did. Did you ever see any of the "The Horror File" articles that appeared in some of the Objectivist newsletters? The list was offered in that spirit.