About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Dawkins has been one of my favorite people for a long time. 

He and Douglas Adams were good friends.  Dawkins dedicated his book The God Delusion with this quote by Adams,
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too. 




Post 1

Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Fairies? poor lad, they were gnomes..... ;-)



Post 2

Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
To label people as death-deserving enemies because of disagreements about real world politics is bad enough.


I don't know about that being bad. It depends on what their politics are, e.g. what if your political enemies are Islamo-Fascists?



Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 10:05pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
JA: It depends on what their politics are, e.g. what if your political enemies are Islamo-Fascists?
First they came for the Islamo-fascists
and I did not speak up...

Crimes (torts) ae committed by individual perpetrators against individual victims. Ludwig von Mises points out in Human Action and in Epistemological Problems that we do not really know and actually do not care what the motive of the actor is.  We consider only the actionWhether you kill a man because he is an Islamo-fascist or because he will not give you his wallet makes no difference to the victim ... or to the bounty hunter on your trail.  (In point of fact and in point of law -- contrary to popular myth -- motive is irrelevant.)




Sanction: 17, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 17, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 17, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Monday, February 26, 2007 - 7:16amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
LOL, first they came for the Islamo-Fascists and I did not speak up? Ok let's see how many variations of that we can come up with:

First they came for the child molesters, and I did not speak up.

First they came for the rapists, and I did not speak up.

First they came for the mafia, and I did not speak up.

First they came for the Nazis, and I did not speak up.

I mean it really depends on who it is they are going after doesn't it?

And I did mean to imply that by calling someone an Islamo-Fascist they are either a terrorist or supports terrorism.



Post 5

Monday, February 26, 2007 - 7:44amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit

(In point of fact and in point of law -- contrary to popular myth -- motive is irrelevant.)  (M. Marotta)
Unless, of course, you're accused of a hate crime.

Then motive is everything, to the law.
 
If you kill me because I am black, you'll be treated differently (worse) than if you killed me because you wanted my wallet.

Of course, you're right---about it making no difference to me, the victim.
I'm still dead.

Yes, I understand all the "slippery slope" arguments.

But I have to agree with John A. about "whom they're coming for."

Erica




Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Monday, February 26, 2007 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit

...that we do not really know and actually do not care what the motive of the actor is.  We consider only the action.

A pedestrian is run over and dies on the way to the hospital.  Was the driver of the car guilty of a crime?  It depends.  Did he intend to run the person over?

Evidence is sought to determine if there is a motive - without that we can't understand the act.  Some acts are that way.

The victim is just as dead either way - but without looking at motive there could be no justice.

------------------------------

But the disagreement between John and Michael is different. 

John is saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) that to label terrorists as deserving of death is not a bad thing. 

And Michael is saying, (please correct me if I'm wrong), that crimes are committed by individuals - not groups of people related only by a similarity in beliefs.  And that a crime is in the act not in the motive.

If John understands Islamo-fascism to mean a commitment to terrorists acts or material support of terrorism then an act has been occurred - that act of commitment or support or an act of terror itself - and motive doesn't seem very important in this case.

If, on the other hand, Islamo-fascism is a belief system that can he held by a foolish college student who also says, that he doesn't agree with the violence even though he understands it.  And he gives no material aid to actual terrorists.  Then there is no criminal act.

Where does joining a group or vocally supporting a group make one an accomplice to the groups acts?  Can you be partial accomplice (not as guilty as those who take the actions)?   




Post 7

Monday, February 26, 2007 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
I think the central question here is if one has the right to use force against someone who advocates the use of violence or theft against you?

Do you shoot the activist who promotes raising taxes?
Do you shoot the senator who introduces the bill to raise taxes?
Do you shoot the president who signs the bill to raise taxes?
Do you shoot the tax collector who comes for you when you don’t pay those taxes?

I simply don’t know. In the meantime though I’ll keep my gun cocked (figuratively speaking)




Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Monday, February 26, 2007 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Ludwig von Mises points out in Human Action and in Epistemological Problems that we do not really know and actually do not care what the motive of the actor is

This seems to be a very anti-conceptual attitude (no surprise coming from libertarians) to ignore the motive behind an action is to sabatouge any long term rational effort you may have at A) preventing further attacks or B) erradicating the desire to commit terrorist attacks in a common meme group in the first place.

If you ignore the larger conceptual picture, that yes, while individual islamo-fascists committ terrorist attacks, it is the group idealogy as a whole that tends to support and promulgate the idea of attacking innocent people to further political goals, political goals, which I must remind you, are to create a global fundamentalist islamic dictatorship. This idealogy is primarily supported by a handful of majority arab / islamic states, most of which are brutal theocratic hell holes or dictatorships. Fighting terrorism must necessarily include fighting cultures that are the source of that terrorism. Getting rid of shitty murderous dictators which react to free speech by cutting out tongues is a good place to start.



Post 9

Monday, February 26, 2007 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Do you shoot the tax collector who comes for you when you don’t pay those taxes?


nah - ye hang them.....;-)

and tar and feather them.......time honored convention....;-)

(Edited by robert malcom on 2/26, 5:04pm)




Post 10

Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
War is Hell, With Apologies

Again, we have to distinguish between crime and war. Crimes are torts and are tried in courts. Aiding the enemy in times of war is treason and calls for more. Treason can be a capital crime. Don't call for jihad if you can't serve the time. Ahmadinejad has already passed sentnce on himself, it's up to us to put his corpse on a shelf.

Send them to the Kerguelens, and let @ll@h sort them out.

Ted



Post to this thread
User ID Password reminder or create a free account.