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Post 0

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 7:12pmSanction this postReply
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Steve is this an historical quote, or was it written for the movie?

Also, at this point, who wants the m*slims not fighting among themselves? (The Arabs include the Christians of Lebanon and Malta - who partake not of Jihad.)

Ted



Post 1

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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So far as I know it was only in the movie.



Post 2

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 8:30pmSanction this postReply
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As recall, it came from Revolt in the Desert, the earlier version of Seven Pillars of Wisdom - by T. S. Lawrence....
(Edited by robert malcom on 4/25, 8:31pm)




Post 3

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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Well, it is a great quote, and a great movie. I've tried, but not succeeded in reading Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom. A very interesting man, and one of the actors in a seminal event of our age - the dismemberment of the remains of the Caliphate and the artificial creation of the modern Mideast.

Ted



Post 4

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, you are saying that it's not just from Lawrence of Arabia, but is actually from Lawrence's own writing?



Post 5

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 9:08pmSanction this postReply
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This quote explains one of the primary practical reasons why America should stay out of Middle Eastern affairs. American intervention unifies them. If it was not for American intervention, they would be more focused on killing each other.




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Post 6

Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 12:02amSanction this postReply
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While I deeply loved this movie since I first saw it in 1988 on the big screen, I have to say that I now realize it greatly distorts and dangerously overromanticizes the Arab culture and its essential character.

What's more, I have a sneaking feeling that this movie might have gone a long way over the years in terms of cultivating in western consciousness, the notion that Arab culture is necessarily a strictly innocent, victimized culture of "noble savages".  I fear it has turned many a viewer into yet another "desert-loving English", as Alec Guinness' character describes Lawrence in the film.

(Edited by Jeremy M. LeRay on 4/26, 12:05am)




Post 7

Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 3:13amSanction this postReply
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(The Arabs include the Christians of Lebanon and Malta - who partake not of Jihad.)
Not to mention, Iranians are not Arabs...




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Post 8

Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 3:47amSanction this postReply
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Well, whoever wrote this, they clearly had an eye for irony. Lawrence being famed for his actions during a period in the early 20th century when the Europeans were fighting amongst themselves on a rather grand scale.
(Edited by Jeremy B
on 4/26, 9:14am)




Post 9

Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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I can only say it as a recall, since at the moment, my books are in storage [grrrrrrrr - but that's another tale], but having a copy of each of El Lawrence's books, and read them more than once, as was fascinated once with the whole scenario, this does seem as a quote from the man himself - he did see them as children, in many ways, and the desert as a giant sandbox......

And yes, you are quite right about the movie - it, in its way, is as much a distortion, as Dances With Wolves

(Edited by robert malcom on 4/26, 7:36am)




Post 10

Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:04amSanction this postReply
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Well, talking about fighting among themselves, there's always WWI, and WWII...



Post 11

Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, Hong's mention of the terrible aggression of German upon German during WWII is an excellent historical analogy.  When the largely Lutheran German Reich foribly annexed the largely Catholic Austria in the Anschluss it was a terrible example of intra-ethnic discord.  This is an excellent analogy to the actions of the Arabs of different m*slim sects but of the same ethnic group and language killing each other in the name of religion.

As regards to WWI however, I am not quite so sure what the commonality is, given that Austria and Germany were on the same side.  Perhaps someone can clear this up?

Ted Keer




Post 12

Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Well, the warring parties of WWI - the King of England, the Kaiser of Germany, and the Tsar of Russia, were all first cousins and grandchildren of Queen Victoria. One would think that there should be better ways solving family matters. ;-^



Post 13

Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
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Well, whoever wrote this, they clearly had an eye for irony. Lawrence being famed for his actions during a period in the early 20th century when the Europeans were fighting amongst themselves on a rather grand scale.
Precisely.




Post 14

Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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Wolrd War One was undoubtedly the greatest tragedy in human history. The Great War led to the end of the innocence of the West, decisively shifting our culture from the Romanticism and mannered comedies of the late 19th Century to the disillusioned movements of Dada, "abstract art," cynicism, nihilism, and what we now call post-modernism in literature, the rise of Gertrude Stein, Samuel Beckett, and the near-extinguishment of the 19th Century ethos of "Human Progress." Economically, the trend toward free-trade was replaced by central planning and the rise of Marxist-Leninism, killing some 20 millions in the 'Soviet Union' and 30 million under Mao, just to name a 'few.' Politically we see the rise of the totalitarian state in its Imperialist, Fascist and Communist guises, with the post-Ottoman m*slim states almost universally adopting or accommodating the Wahhabist or Ba'athist type authoritarian statism. The connections of the Ba'ath party with Nazism are well known. Mein Kampf and are a few of the books ever translated into Arabic, and not banned by isl*mist states.

But World War One was not a result of a "family squabble." Indeed, the pro-German sympathies of the British Royalty, and the close relationship between Kaiser Wilhem, Tsar Nicholas, led to urgent attempts between these rulers to avoid the outbreak of war in the summer of 1914. A series of correspondences between the Kaiser and the Tsar (nicknamed the Nicky-Willy letters) show that the executives were trying to head off a crisis instigated by the murderous Serbian provocation of Austria-Hungary. The military and militarist political wings of Austria-Hungary, France, Russia and Germany were all itching for war or at least 'mobilization.' Neither religion nor dynastic rivalries played any major role in the outbreak of war between the great colonies.

Comparisons of the World Wars with sectarian tribalist violence amongst Bedouin clans is a very poor analogy. The motive for making such a claim put forth in a passive-aggressive manner as both a joke and a serious claim is more consistent with the "Just kidding" personality of a James Taggart than a Dagny Taggart. Just what is the point of making such claims of moral equivalence, if not some sort of hidden anti-Western agenda? Indeed, there are possible intellectually honest and historically fruitful analogies to be drawn between, say, the devastating 30 Years War where the Holy Roman Empire consumed itself in sectarian violence with Catholic and Protestant princes and armies killing off entire towns and provinces and some 30% of the population of Germany. One could make a more recent comparison with the "troubles" of Northern Ireland, again, with murderous religious and political struggles between thugs and terrorists to gain secular hegemony in the name of hypocritical 'spiritual' values.

But even here, there is an essential flaw. The West has worked through and overcome its own problems through internal struggle. The West, with the concession of the major Christian sects, whether or not those churches have conceded eagerly and whether or not rabid critics of Christianity want to admit it, has freed itself.

Ted Keer




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Post 15

Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 7:27amSanction this postReply
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The motive for making such a claim put forth in a passive-aggressive manner as both a joke and a serious claim is more consistent with the "Just kidding" personality of a James Taggart than a Dagny Taggart. Just what is the point of making such claims of moral equivalence, if not some sort of hidden anti-Western agenda?


No, no, my hidden agenda is much more sinister. Actually, I was pointing out that, at the very time when Lawrence was active in Arabia, Europe was drowning itself in blood and mustard gas, and therefore there was irony in a European accusing another nation of being self-destructive. (Of course he may have been right - but the irony remains.) I think it is right to describe WW1 as the self-destruction of Europe because, while Europe is of course made up of many nations, Europeans had historically seen themselves (and their colonies) as constituting a distinct, Christian civilisation, and a superior one to, say, the Arabs. Well, perhaps, if you look at history as a whole. But the point is that the period 1914-1918 was evidence to the contrary. Even the best can plumb the depths. Hence the irony.

But even here, there is an essential flaw. The West has worked through and overcome its own problems through internal struggle.


I don't see anyone arguing otherwise.
(Edited by Jeremy B
on 4/29, 3:38pm)




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