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Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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Hong, I suggest that you might try reading Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You.  It is his interpretation of the Christian Gospels not as a means to eternal salvation after death, but to individual worldly peace on earth.  His arguments are probably closer to what Jesus was preaching than what the Church is selling.

But Don't assume that his statement that self-interest is the "mainspring" of our actions means that he is either an egoist or that he is preaching rational self interest.  I am quite sure that he would say that a thief is acting selfishly, and that he is no Objectivist.  Tolstoy was a pacifist and an altruist.

Ted




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Post 1

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,
I am sure I will never read The Kingdom of God is Within You, since I read for entertainment and not for religion or philosophy. 

In Anna Karenina, Levin was rationalizing to his brother why he was not interested in local politics:

"I'll tell you, then," he said with heat, "I imagine the

mainspring of all our actions is, after all, self-interest.  Now

in the local institutions I, as a nobleman, see nothing that

could conduce to my prosperity, and the roads are not better and

could not be better; my horses carry me well enough over bad

ones.  Doctors and dispensaries are no use to me.  An arbitrator

of disputes is no use to me.  I never appeal to him, and never

shall appeal to him.  The schools are no good to me, but

positively harmful, as I told you.  For me the district

institutions simply mean the liability to pay fourpence halfpenny

for every three acres, to drive into the town, sleep with bugs,

and listen to all sorts of idiocy and loathsomeness, and
self-interest offers me no inducement."
 
He then went on to claim that emancipation of the serfs was consistent with his self-interest. I see nothing here that contradict the Objectivist sense of "self-interest".
 
As to the novel itself, Tolstoy showed a deep penetration in human nature and human relations which I enjoy greatly. I put this novel as the top one or two books that I've ever read. If Levin was his alter ego, then I must say that I like him tremendously even if he turned to religion in the end, because he was honest, realistic, enlightened, and yes, very benevolent. And, though this is a very minor point, I also share exactly the same exasperation as him over men's stupidity. 
 
And he is the guy who wrote "War and Peace" and "Anna Karenina", who was also able to love and enjoy great domestic felicity.  I don't really care what else he was or was not.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 5/08, 4:39pm)




Post 2

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 4:56pmSanction this postReply
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No, if you enjoyed reading philosophy or religion as I do for pleasure, even then you would not read The Kingdom of God is Within You for pleasure. It's somewhat interesting, but also definitely quite a chore.

I would like to know who the translator of your version of Anna Karenina is. I intend to read Tolstoy's fiction at some point, and could use a recommendation.

Perhaps Tolstoy, then, is like Victor Hugo? An explicit altruist who nonetheless manages to write really good novels? I am always happy to be pleasantly disproved.

Ted



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Post 3

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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Ted,
I read the Chinese version of AK 20 years ago and thought it dreadful too. But a recent reading really surprised me at just how brilliant he was. I believe the translator is Constance Garnett. The whole book is available online now. Of course the translation matters, but I'd think it is not as bad as not to be able to read Pushkin in its original.
 
Frankly, I have no idea whether Tolstoy is an "altruist" or not. I rather thought that Tolstoy must be a selfish bastard, otherwise he wouldn't be able to accomplish what he had accomplished. In my opinion, three dozens Objetivists and a hundred so-called egoists wouldn't hold a candle for the man who wrote War and Peace and Anna Karenina.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 5/09, 11:28am)




Post 4

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 2:06pmSanction this postReply
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Hong: In my opinion, three dozens Objetivists and a hundred so-called egoists wouldn't hold a candle for the man who wrote War and Peace and Anna Karenina.
 
Only, 3-dozen?    ;-)

And Hong, just imagine spending an evening talking to a Tolstoy! 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 5/09, 9:01pm)




Post 5

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 2:21pmSanction this postReply
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The only thing important one can say about his explicit philosophical altruism as expressed in The Kingdom is that, as with all other people, he couldn't practice it consistently, and he was apparently smart enough of a genius to compensate for the underlying contradictions.

My Russian skills are pretty much non-existent, so reading anything lengthy by Pushkin or the like is simply out of the question for me.  But second to English, the best poetry I have ever read has been in Russian.  I can't quote or cite any, but some was by Pushkin.

I assume that I will eventually end up reading War and Peace.  I have read Dostoevski's Notes from the Underground and his Brothers Karamazov, both of which I enjoyed.  I couldn't get into the other works of his that I have tried, most likely due to the translator.

I am pleasantly surprised that you are so much into literature in English, with so many people here expressing their dislike of reading fiction even in their native tongue.  Have you read Hugo?  Have you read Melville, Conrad, Orwell, or any of the other Classics of English literature?  And what about Shakespeare?  Most native English speakers find him inscrutable.  I didn't understand him myself until I was in my 30s.  I absolutely love him now, but could never imagine reading him in translation.  The Germans love him in translation, which to me seems incomprehensible.

Ted




Post 6

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, I'm hijacking this thread! Tolkien or bust! Sorry, I've been reading too much Tolkien as of late. ;) And playing Lord of the Rings Online too. O_O

But some of Tolstoy's work is sort of interesting, but I just can't make myself agree with it. Just as I find Orwell interesting, but I don't agree with his socialistic leanings, and so on.

-- Brede



Post 7

Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
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> I am pleasantly surprised that you are so much into literature in English...

Hardly! Mostly just the usual light, trashy, and girly stuff! We do have a Yale Complete Shakespeare at home, a 10-pounder, I think. And it was perfect to be placed under my son's butt on the piano stool in the last few years! (Sorry)




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Post 8

Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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George questioned:
Only, 3-dozen?    ;-)
OK, maybe it is easier to approach this from a positive angle. Let's say that there may be a half dozen or so Objectivists that we may willing to spend an evening to talk to? Yes?




Post 9

Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 9:15pmSanction this postReply
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Girly trashy stuff? So Tolstoy is light reading? Hong, I really find you inscrutable. I could never really read anything for pleasure except in English, my native tongue. I can read quite fluently in French and Spanish, indeed I sometimes think and dream in Spanish. And I have read entire novels in French. But reading fiction in any other language simply doesn't allow me any pleasure - it's either actually a chore, or it just comes across like watching a silent old newsreel about a county fair - empty of any emotional content whatsoever.

I find it amazing that you can read Tolstoy in English translation for pleasure.

I suppose these are personal comments, so let me stop here.

I do, with Bridget, recommend Tolkien if you haven't read him.

Ted







Post 10

Friday, May 11, 2007 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Ted, are you saying that you only read literary works in their original forms and not translations?! Gosh, I don't know what to say.




Post 11

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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I wish, Hong! I have read about ten novels and much more poetry and non-fiction in French and German. I am most fluent in Spanish, and can enjoy Spanish movies without subtitles - in fact - subtitles usually annoy me. But I haven't read any novels in Spanish. Perhaps one day I'll read Don Quixote. My Russian is nowhere near good enough to enjoy more than the sound of Russian poetry - which I need to have translated. I prefer to buy classical works that have been originally written in either Greek or Latin in bilingual editions. I read the English to get to the point quickly and read the original to check the original sense versus the translator's interpretations. Knowing German makes Nietzsche much more meaningful; knowing Ancient Greek makes the New Testament more critically accesable. But I cannot say that I have ever simply read a literary work of novel length in another tongue with the effortless enjoyment that I have read any works in English.

Translatability depends on the nature of the work and the style of the writer. Literal writers whose stories are plot-driven such as Hugo seem to be more easily translatable. I couldn't imagine how one could translate Shakespeare without losing the effect of his double-entendres and poetic structure. Below is my favorite Shakespearean soliloquy form the second act of Richard II. How could one really appreciate it in all its glory, except in the English original?

JOHN OF GAUNT
Methinks I am a prophet new inspired
And thus expiring do foretell of him:
His rash fierce blaze of riot cannot last,
For violent fires soon burn out themselves;
Small showers last long, but sudden storms are short;
He tires betimes that spurs too fast betimes;
With eager feeding food doth choke the feeder:
Light vanity, insatiate cormorant,
Consuming means, soon preys upon itself.
This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,

This nurse, this teeming womb of royal kings,
Fear'd by their breed and famous by their birth,
Renowned for their deeds as far from home,
For Christian service and true chivalry,
As is the sepulchre in stubborn Jewry,
Of the world's ransom, blessed Mary's Son,
This land of such dear souls, this dear dear land,
Dear for her reputation through the world,
Is now leased out, I die pronouncing it,
Like to a tenement or pelting farm:
England, bound in with the triumphant sea
Whose rocky shore beats back the envious siege
Of watery Neptune, is now bound in with shame,
With inky blots and rotten parchment bonds:
That England, that was wont to conquer others,
Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.
Ah, would the scandal vanish with my life,
How happy then were my ensuing death!



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