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Monday, July 9, 2007 - 6:05amSanction this postReply
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In the interest of placating my parents, especially my mother, in the summer of their concurrent 80th birthdays in 2007, I consented to attend church with them for the first time in many years.  This is the church I attended every Sunday, sang in the church youth choir, received Lutheran catechism training and confirmation, served as youth group president, and where my mother served as church organist for decades.  Having moved far away from home before fully committing to atheism, I generally avoided the subject of religion as a topic not worth raising during the few days a year I actually see them.  As for the town itself, picture Mayberry from The Andy Griffith Show and you will have a fairly accurate portrait.

The new minister at their church works as a chemistry professor at the local community college and does ministering on the side -- not a bad deal considering he garners $50,000 per year for that part-time endeavor.  I learned later that he earned his doctorate in chemistry from University of Florida in Gainesville.  I truly had to bite my lip just to avoid opening a major can of worms right after the service when he came to greet me.

When he uttered this quote in the middle of the worship service during his sermon, I felt like I would burst into flames!

To learn more about the author, visit

http://www.appvoices.org/index.php?/site/voice_stories/the_garment_of_god/issue/527

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 7/09, 6:07am)




Post 1

Monday, July 9, 2007 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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File this under small world. I'm pretty sure this guy is the brother of my Presbyterian childhood minister, Glenn Dickson in Gainesville, Florida. Glenn is mostly known as an ardent opponent of the death penalty:
http://www.fadp.org/news/gs-20070411/

Jim




Post 2

Monday, July 9, 2007 - 3:39pmSanction this postReply
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Is your tongue still intact, Luke?   ;)




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Post 3

Monday, July 9, 2007 - 5:37pmSanction this postReply
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Experience him without matter - without our brains, our hearts, without our eyes or ears or tongues? Without the chemistry of our synapses - so without the thoughts or emotions mediated by our neurochemicals? Without physics, so without our bodies? I can understand how a Lutheran, untrained in Aquinas, might make such a stupid mistake, but a chemist?

Ted



Post 4

Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 11:00pmSanction this postReply
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why is this god/ no god thing so emotional  ?



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Post 5

Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 5:40pmSanction this postReply
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The Burden of Proof: Faith, not God is the Problem


There are two ways to take your question, Harley:

"why is this god/ no god thing so emotional ?" [sic]

First, how many people are traumatized as Children, circumcised, have their clitorises removed and labia sewn up, are scared into thinking that they will burn in hell for masturbation, sex, looking at another man or woman, how many people are killed each year for those same reasons, and why would this not be an emotional topic?

But of course, such things, while said to be done in the name of a non-existent god are really done because people's mindless acceptance of evil based on faith. You can't blame a god that doesn't exist - it's people and their twisted minds that are to blame.

Second, why do enlightened freethinkers get themselves so worked up over a non-existent being? I myself find the frothing at the mouth type atheists who want all mention of God, all religious festivals, and all vestiges of religion such as "In God We Trust" on our coins to be removed from the public square often to be distracted, petulant, silly, obsessed and beside the point. Perhaps not Objectivists, but certainly among leftists we find people who think the war on terror is a false issue but they will go to no end to have "under God" removed from the pledge of allegiance.

(Indeed, the only semi-redeeming quality of the pledge is that the "under God" does at least imply that the state is subject to a higher moral law. The pledge itself is un-American, a secular oath designed by a socialist, and an oath which, until WWII, was recited not with one's hand on one's heart, but using the same salute with which Nazis said "Heil Hitler!")

More people were killed in the 20th Century by godless Communists than in any way related to religion or God. But there is one thing that religious killers and Communists have in common - unswerving faith. Faith is the enemy. Without faith, God as a vengeful killer withers on the vine. No book in the mid of the fray, written for the already converted, like The God Delusion or god is not Great is going to convert the faithful. (Even though they may be great reads.) Just as no scientifically trained rational thinker is going to convert to Mormonism, no matter how many clean-shaven pretty little blond boys hand them pamphlets on the street corner.

The war will be won not by a frontal attack on God, but by teaching children to think. Teachers and parents must teach the rules of logic, induction, and the scientific method to children. I was raised as a Catholic, but also to believe in the scientific method and I understood the principle of the burden of proof. By 13 I was a deist, by 16 I no longer believed in God in any form. This was an easy and obvious transition for me that took just a few days of serious thought when I was presented with the appropriate arguments. I am not emotionally anti-God - that would be as sensible as being emotionally enraged at the tooth fairy or the Harry Potter novels.

Luke's minister made a ridiculous claim, the burden of proof was on him and he deserved to be ridiculed for the nonsense he spouted. But a general attitude of hatred toward a non-existent God, as opposed to a patient advocacy of reason will will not win the battle.

Ted Keer

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 7/11, 6:34pm)




Post 6

Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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"Communists have ... unswerving faith" I'd call it "denial of reality", but not faith. Excellent post Ted. Interesting point about the pledge been written by a socialist.

I pledge allegiance[/loyalty/trustworthiness & dependability] to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

It doesn't sound communist to me. "Liberty and justice for all" is a very capitalist thing no?



Post 7

Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
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The Pledge of Allegiance

From wikipedia:

The Pledge of Allegiance was written for the popular children's magazine Youth's Companion by socialist author and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy on September 7, 1892. The owners of Youth's Companion were selling flags to schools, and approached Bellamy to write the Pledge for their advertising campaign. It was marketed as a way to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Columbus arriving in the Americas and was first published on the following day.

Bellamy's original Pledge read as follows: I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, and was seen by some as a call for national unity and wholeness after the divisive Civil War. The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be stated in 15 seconds. He had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity but decided they were too controversial since many people still opposed equal rights for women and blacks. Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue. [emphasis mine]

As for "liberty" and "justice," what do these words mean to a socialist? Remember Rooseveldt's "four freedoms" and the still current idea of "social justice."

Ted Keer

P.S., Dean, faith is primarily an epistemological and not a religious term. It literally means belief or trust, specifically in the sense of belief or trust in the absence of evidence or in the denial of reality. It applies perfectly to the behavior of conspiracy theorists, supernaturalists, marxists who hold that their theory was right, but that human greed failed them, or the behavior of Clinton's cabinet such as Madeline Albright swearing to the press that if Clinton told her the he hadn't had sex with that woman, she believed him.

Zeus is a god, but since no one has faith in Zeus today, he is not a threat. It is not gods but faith that is the mind killer.

Ted




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Post 8

Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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Faith is the mind killer
Faith is the little death that brings total obliteration
I will face my faith
I will permit it to pass over me and through me
And, when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see it's path
Where the faith has gone, there will be nothing
Only I will remain

From Frank Herbert's Dune (italics for emphasis, where it says "faith", in the original it was "fear") 

Excellent point, Ted.

(Edited by Bauer Westeren on 7/18, 1:45pm)

(Edited by Bauer Westeren on 7/18, 1:48pm)




Post 9

Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
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Bauer:  Excellent. Is that your own?

Sam




Post 10

Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
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Nope, it's from Frank Herbert's Dune, probably my favorite sci-fi book/series (but that's for a different thread)  Ted's last comment about faith being the mind killer (purposefully?) reminded me of it.  I should probably give credit, no?

Thanks for the compliment, though.




Post 11

Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 4:13pmSanction this postReply
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In the original it's very Zen. In your modification it's very Objectivist.

Either way it's great.

Sam




Post 12

Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, it was an intentional allusion to Frank Herbert.

He's my third favorite writer after Rand and Tolkien. Heinlein and Niven are perhaps more fun and present more positive outlooks, but Herbert is a better artist than Niven or Heinlein.

I will take the opportunity here to repeat my endorsement of Herbert's The White Plague about biological terrorism.



Post 13

Thursday, February 28 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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I learned that this pastor and his congregation recently had irreconcilable differences over items like music selection that led to the congregation firing him.

One person joked that Baptists are not the only denomination that has trouble getting along with its preachers!




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