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Friday, November 9, 2007 - 5:07pmSanction this postReply
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I believe it might snow.



Post 1

Friday, November 9, 2007 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
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I think it will be a nice day tomorrow.



Post 2

Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 3:16pmSanction this postReply
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I believe I'll have another beer.



Post 3

Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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You Gotta Believe?

The word belief, or more properly, the concept, does have value - but only in matters where certainty is impossible, such as predictions about future events or guessing about peoples' motives. And the word itself stands for different concepts. One can speak of one's beliefs as in one's principles. One can hold beliefs about future events - and here one is implicitly admitting uncertainty. Ore one can say I believe I'll have a beer - which is simply a figure of speech one usually uses as a more polite way of telling the waitress "bring me a brew, wench!"

But in the most important sense, and in the most important cases, the quote is correct. Reality does not require belief. One cannot see that the sky is blue but claim that one will believe that it is orange. One cannot know math but believe that two plus two makes five. And one cannot choose to believe.

The ultimate bizzarity of the religious faithful is their admonition that one has to try or choose to believe in God. What exactly does this mean? Either one does or does not believe something. It is not a matter of choice. I can no more choose to believe something than I can chose to know something - either I do or I don't. And if God exists, should one prefer to know this, rather than to believe it? If God, as in a personal being whose wishes in some way determine one's ultimate fate does exist, wouldn't one rather know this than relegate it to the realm of uncertainty about future events or the intentions of others?

Of course, it does all come down to the intentions of others. Those who say that you have to believe are social metaphysicians with faulty epistemologies. They are the one's who 'believe' that reality is what other people think. They find no incongruity in the idea that one has to believe in God because for them ideas at more than one or two removes from the perceptual are floating abstractions - words they have heard others assert which they mouth like parrots. Such people don't understand science or history or morality. They don't understand Avagadro's experiment determining the number of molecules in a drop of oil by measuring its area as it spreads out on a surface of oil. They don't understand how the fact that sediment layers all over the earth always lie in a certain order, with those holding more primitive fossils and more decayed radioactive isotypes lying beneath those with more recent fossils and less decayed isotypes shows that the earth is slightly older than 4,004 BC. They don't actually even know that the world existed before they were born.

If God exists, he knows whether or not you "believe" in him. Going to church and mouthing the ceremony, or sleeping through it so that at least your neighbours see that you attend scores you no points. I don't believe in God, and so I do at least show Him this much respect, I don't go into His house and blaspheme by pretending to a belief I don't have.

Ted Keer




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Post 4

Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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And one cannot choose to believe.
 
I don't believe that. I think it is an error. 




Post 5

Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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I don't know, Teresa.  For me, I can "choose to believe" things that make sense to me, but I cannot "choose to believe" things that don't make sense to me.  (If it's "unbelievable", I can't believe it!)  Now, is everyone that way?  Do people believe in God because it makes sense to them, or can they somehow believe what doesn't make sense?  Can they believe the unbelievable?  Do they believe because it makes them feel good?

(And, does the word "believe" start to look misspelled to you if you look at it too much? ;-))




Post 6

Monday, November 12, 2007 - 3:12amSanction this postReply
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 I can "choose to believe" things that make sense to me, but I cannot "choose to believe" things that don't make sense to me.

Makes sense. But, this is the Creationist argument, too.  They just can't believe there is so much order without an intelligent maker. 

And, does the word "believe" start to look misspelled to you if you look at it too much? ;-))

Yes!




Post 7

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not sure if you are being ironic, Teresa. If you are not, please give an example of anything that one can "choose" to believe. I can see choosing to act on insufficient data such as by "giving someone the benefit of the doubt." But here it is choosing to act in the face of uncertainty, not choosing to be certain when certainty doesn't exist.

Ted Keer



Post 8

Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 3:12amSanction this postReply
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Teresa. If you are not, please give an example of anything that one can "choose" to believe.

Elvis is alive and living in Kalamazoo.  Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, Ted.

The choice comes in when folks refuse to seek alternatives to outrageous conclusions. To be fair, I think it's generous to allow these people their "beliefs," but a psychological sacrifice to say they have no choice in them.

Acting on uncertainty doesn't mean complete uncertainty. It means some aspect of an act is uncertain. Outcomes are projected, which often means they can be seen as successful, even if all aspects are uncertain.

Tiger can see himself making that 20 foot putt. He can't be certain of the wind, or an unanticipated break in the green.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 11/15, 3:18am)




Post 9

Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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Let me get this right.  If I try hard enough, I can believe that Elvis is alive?  I can practise believing 100 impossible things before breakfast?  Even with an athlete believing that it is possible that he will make a shot, it seems to me that either he does or does not believe it, but he can't simply choose to believe it.  For instance, I don't believe in God, but Christians tell me try to believe in him.  How do I do this?

Ted




Post 10

Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
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Let me get this right.  If I try hard enough, I can believe that Elvis is alive?

LOL!  Okay, that's what I get for trying to read posts at 6AM, while anticipating another crazy day.  I get it, "can't choose to believe."  Got it. Check. No problem.  Blaming Miss Clairol.




Post 11

Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 5:57pmSanction this postReply
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Don't get me wrong - I do think there are minor and innocent senses in which one can say one is going to choose to believe something - again, such as in deciding to act with confidence, or to give someone the benefit of the doubt. In these cases one holds the belief that facts could be either way, one is not yet sure, and the choice is how to act in the face of that uncertainty. But so many people do tell me that I should try to believe in Jesus or the like, and the idea just seems so bizarre to me, that I wanted to know if perhaps you do understand them, Teresa.

This morning on the train I was wondering, could unhappy people just "choose" to believe that they are happy? If so, how could anyone possibly choose otherwise, and wouldn't we all be living in bliss?

Ted



Post 12

Friday, November 16, 2007 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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"Merciful Heavens! but what do I care for the laws of nature and arithmetic, when, for some reason I dislike those laws and the fact that twice two makes four?"
- The Underground Man



Post 13

Friday, November 16, 2007 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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This morning on the train I was wondering, could unhappy people just "choose" to believe that they are happy?

I think that is entirely possible.  I think if one chooses to think good thoughts often enough, the result will be a happier disposition. If one chooses to engage in more fulfilling activities, the result will be the same.

Being happy doesn't happen without reason.  You're a generally happy guy, aren't you, Ted?  Ever stop to think about why that is? 




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Post 14

Friday, November 16, 2007 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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Choosing to act in ways that you believe will result in your being happy in the future is very much different from believing that you are currently happy when, in fact, you are not.



Post 15

Friday, November 16, 2007 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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When you don't know, and don't know that you don't know, then you're ready to believe anything.
It's about knowing what you know, not believing what you believe.  Ted knows a whole lot. Too many people aren't like Ted.

I would change the title quote just a little bit:

"[Grasp of] Reality does not require believing..."  




Post 16

Friday, November 16, 2007 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Well, the quote actually was mine - been using it for many years on the back of my VW Bug, which was called 'Back Talk", for those behind me waiting at a light to read..... [there were other sayings, too - sort of a self made graffitti board....].... but wondered how it would be interpreted by others is why put it in here...  actually am surprised at the comments on it, as thought it rather straightforward.....


Interesting, actually......

(Edited by robert malcom on 11/16, 6:25pm)




Post 17

Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 1:17amSanction this postReply
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Replies to Teresa and Malcom

Teresa, I was going to reply to you as Rick Pasotto did, until I saw that he had already done it for me. My boyfriend once told a lady who was bitching on the train about how evil Bush was (spouting a bunch of non-sequiturs) that If she wanted to be miserable that it was her right, but that happiness was also an available option.

Robert, I agree with you in spirit. My first post was merely to make the rhetorical point that belief does has valid meanings and uses. And while that which is outside our control doesn't require our belief in order to be what it is, humans do have to have beliefs because they don't always have certainty, and they must act in circumstances where the best that they can do is say, I believe it would be better to wait for the train, rather than to attempt to take a taxi through such heavy traffic.

Ted Keer



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