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Post 20

Tuesday, March 4 - 12:57pmSanction this postReply
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He's intentionally directing his focus and his thinking in an attempt to reflect on something, Bob.

I'm sure that you've heard of doing that kind of a thing before, haven't you? You know, exercising your immaterial, yet causally-efficient, volition and rationality?

;-)

Ed



Post 21

Tuesday, March 4 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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Ed says:

I'm sure that you've heard of doing that kind of a thing before, haven't you? You know, exercising your immaterial, yet causally-efficient, volition and rationality?


I reply:

My volition is brain generated. I have the scans to prove it.

There is nothing unphysical or immaterial about me. I am made entirely out of atoms.

Bob Kolker




Post 22

Tuesday, March 4 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
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Bobby-5 (cousin of Johnny-5) says:

My volition is brain generated. I have the scans to prove it.


I reply:

Scans, schlans. You miss the point. When I said that volition is causally-efficient, I meant it as technical jargon for: "it can get things done." So, I wasn't talking about the cause of volition -- as you erroneously believed (and answered back to) -- I was noting how volition causes things.

You are thinking -- in a manner that's been called "magical thinking" -- like a schizophrenic who, upon seeing exhaust coming out of cars which are moving, mystically believes that it must be the exhaust that is pushing the car forward. And the reason that it has to be the exhaust fumes providing some sort of quieted-down jet-propulsion is because -- as the schizo will gleefully explain -- the fumes are necessarily connected to car-driving.

:-O

It's just "dumb logic" to think that way.

Ed



Post 23

Tuesday, March 4 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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Ed writes:

You are thinking -- in a manner that's been called "magical thinking" -- like a schizophrenic who, upon seeing exhaust coming out of cars which are moving, mystically believes that it must be the exhaust that is pushing the car forward. And the reason that it has to be the exhaust fumes providing some sort of quieted-down jet-propulsion is because -- as the schizo will gleefully explain -- the fumes are necessarily connected to car-driving.


I reply:

Finding physical causes is the very antithesis of magical thinking. Believing in non-material (i.e. non-physical causes) is the essence of magic and supernatural religion.

I am rooted to fact. What are you rooted to?

Bob Kolker




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Post 24

Tuesday, March 4 - 7:40pmSanction this postReply
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Bobert (cousin of Q-bert, a video game character that can only jump between pre-set levels -- with no idea of the space between them) -- you have managed to miss the point again. Go figure.

When I likened your thinking to that of a schizophrenic, you were supposed to react normally -- and make mental note of the similarity. You didn't (apparently). So let me "dumb-it-down" for you even more ...

What's "crazy" about the thinking of many folks stricken with schizophrenia is that they make associations like associations are going out of style, or something. You could say that they over-associate. Think of Pavlov's dogs salivating at the sound of a bell. But bells don't taste good.

The reason that dogs are so easily trained like that is because they are like schizophrenic humans regarding their "crude" (read: non-logical) associations. This lack of logic in the associations made -- this "hasty generalization" made -- is akin to your association of willful intentions with neuron firings.

In order to make out the association of neuron firings -- with our willful intentions -- an association that's logical (i.e., in order to avoid the fallacy of "hasty generalization"), you'd have to integrate the fact that willful intentions are self-directed/self-executed.

Another way to say this is that there won't ever be a time when a neuroscientist -- using technology -- gets control of someone's will. And the reason that this is true is because the neuroscientist uses crude physics and chemistry -- but the will isn't physical.

Now there's a subtle point. Notice that I didn't say control "over" someone's will -- but control "of" someone's will. It's not merely supplanting your will in for the executive functioning of THEIR mind; it's you "being" them through mere chemistry.

Electro-chemical brain activation -- the kind of thing that a neuroscientist could instigate in the brains of others -- isn't a sufficient cause for that kind of a thing (even if it's a necessary dynamic for that kind of a thing).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/04, 7:45pm)




Post 25

Tuesday, March 4 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
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Robert says he doesn't have a mind; he only has a brain. Instead of mind he says neurons firing. I say mind is a metaphor for that. This doesn't contradict Bob. I understand him so I have no reason to argue semantics with him. I'm willing to give Bob his space on this subject. All Bob is doing is protecting his space. He has his reasons. I'd guess simplicity and clarity.

--Brant




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Post 26

Wednesday, March 5 - 12:24amSanction this postReply
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Bob K,

Are you not aware that your arguments are being used by social theorists who contend that, because the antiquated religious notion of the ‘Black Box’ has now been eviscerated, we no longer have any basis for clinging to the illusion of free will?  In their view, neuroscience has established that the “mind” is just like everything else in the universe: all human action can now be interpreted as proceeding from prior physical events in the great causal chain that started with the Big Bang.  Since we are all just puppets, nobody is responsible for his choices and actions any more.  We can blame everything on our brains. 

 

If we commit a crime, we can hire Jackie Chiles or Mark Garegos to argue before the court that “He didn’t do it!  It was his brain!”

 
You would be much loved by today’s liberals, Bob, if you wanted to go that route.  Hillary and Barack just dote on folks who play the helpless victim of causal forces beyond their control. And--as Ed has been trying to explain--that’s exactly where your logic leads, whether you care to admit it or not.




Post 27

Wednesday, March 5 - 4:54amSanction this postReply
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Hardin writes:


Are you not aware that your arguments are being used by social theorists who contend that, because the antiquated religious notion of the ‘Black Box’ has now been eviscerated, we no longer have any basis for clinging to the illusion of free will? In their view, neuroscience has established that the “mind” is just like everything else in the universe: all human action can now be interpreted as proceeding from prior physical events in the great causal chain that started with the Big Bang. Since we are all just puppets, nobody is responsible for his choices and actions any more. We can blame everything on our brains.

I reply:

I don't do "social (so-called) science". I do physics and mathematics. If the (so-called) social scientists take valid considerations out of their proper context and distort them in an inappropriate context, that is their problem, not mine.

Bob Kolker




Post 28

Wednesday, March 5 - 5:10amSanction this postReply
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Hardin writes:

If we commit a crime, we can hire Jackie Chiles or Mark Garegos to argue before the court that “He didn’t do it! It was his brain!”


You would be much loved by today’s liberals, Bob, if you wanted to go that route. Hillary and Barack just dote on folks who play the helpless victim of causal forces beyond their control. And--as Ed has been trying to explain--that’s exactly where your logic leads, whether you care to admit it or not.
s
I reply:

This is a lovely example of what the Greek logicians called elenchi and medieval philosophers called elenchi ingoratio. These are fancy words for "red herring" or irrelevant issues. Since my view only deals with causes of observable effects it is orthogonal to the question of punishing or constraining anti-social behavior.

We have ways of doing that. If a car has unrepairable bad brakes, we don't make a moral issue out of it. We junk the car. If a human exhibits unacceptable or intolerable behavior because his brain is broken we either kill him or lock him up. It is that simple. When Charles Whitman killed his Mom and sniped seventeen people to death in Texas because he had a one pound brain tumor that was making him crazy the matter was dealt with simply. He was shot to death. End of story. Bullets are definitive. Moral arguments go on forever.


Bob Kolker




Post 29

Wednesday, March 5 - 1:08amSanction this postReply
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You're laying smoke Dennis. Bob doesn't deny he has free will. His neurons firing create his consciousness and his consciousness (mind) makes his neurons fire (to some extent, anyway). He doesn't deny consciousness--how could he and argue about anything?--he only denies consciousness absent neurons firing. You focus on consciousness or mind and he focuses on those neurons. He only denies that  the consequences of that firing is a "thing." He's being silly, for there are epistemological "things." Consciousness is a combination of the metaphysical and epistemological. No neurons firing means no consciousness. No mind means no self-awareness. Bob is arguing, implicitly, that he is not self-aware. But of course he is. If he cannot combine the two, he is a self-made idiot.

--Brant




Post 30

Wednesday, March 5 - 7:28amSanction this postReply
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Self-awareness. An epiphenomena of physical processes.

I am physical right down to the sub-atomic level. All the baryons of my body are made of quarks.

Bob Kolker




Post 31

Wednesday, March 5 - 9:07amSanction this postReply
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Brant said:
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Bob doesn't deny he has free will. His neurons firing create his consciousness and his consciousness (mind) makes his neurons fire (to some extent, anyway).
=============

Bob, is that true?


... and then he said ...
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He only denies that  the consequences of that firing is a "thing." He's being silly, for there are epistemological "things." Consciousness is a combination of the metaphysical and epistemological.
=============

Bob, is that true?


... and then he said ...
=============
No neurons firing means no consciousness. No mind means no self-awareness. Bob is arguing, implicitly, that he is not self-aware. But of course he is. If he cannot combine the two, he is a self-made idiot.
=============

Bob, is that true?


Ed




Post 32

Wednesday, March 5 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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I am as self-aware as my alive functioning brain can make me self-aware, which is very self-aware. I do not attribute my self-awareness to non-material ghost like entities as you apparently do. I attribute my self-awareness to physical causes.

Bob Kolker




Post 33

Wednesday, March 5 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
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Please, let's stop feeding this troll.



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Post 34

Wednesday, March 5 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
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You say I am a troll because I tell you physical effects have physical causes? I suppose if I believed in faerie dust as you might, you would think I were not a troll.

The concept of Mind has caused great misery and even death. It is the basis for the anti-concept of "mental illness" whereby thousand of our fellow citizens are held in cages and given "medications" to dull their wits. That is the practical result of believing there is a ghostly Mind inside our very solid real skulls.

Bob Kolker




Post 35

Wednesday, March 5 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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I appreciate your sentiment, John. I really do. That said, I refuse to comply. I am going to continue feeding this troll and to continue making him look as smart as his philosophical positions reveal him to be.

If you find this process approaching the mentally- or emotionally-intolerable, all that I can then ask of you is that you politely look the other way (while I continue to do my kind of "work" on him here -- in this public forum).

;-)

Ed




Post 36

Wednesday, March 5 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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Bob:

You say I am a troll because I tell you physical effects have physical causes?


No I call you a troll because you don't participate in a discussion. You continue on repeating the same damn thing over and over again in this circuitous dialog with others while ignoring the substance of what others are saying. And you accuse others of believing in the supernatural as a means to flame bait others. That is the definition of a troll.

I suppose if I believed in faerie dust as you might, you would think I were not a troll.


And the above comment reaffirms my claim.






Post 37

Wednesday, March 5 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
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Bob,

I notice that you didn't answer any of the 3 questions of my 3-question inquiry (in that post found directly above your response to it) but, instead, you merely repeated pre-packaged phrases like a computer stuck on a print-out mode -- a computer without any actual understanding of what it keeps, repeatedly, spitting out.

Was that just an innocent oversight on your part (missing all 3 questions of a 3-question inquiry), or do you actually have a good explanation for your behavior?

Thanks (in advance) for your response.

Ed




Post 38

Wednesday, March 5 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
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You continue on repeating the same damn thing over and over again in this circuitous dialog with others while ignoring the substance of what others are saying…

 

We all have our limitations, John.  What else can we really expect from an “organic” robot?  

 

As Ed said in a prior post:  “This does not compute…This does not compute...”




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Post 39

Thursday, March 6 - 6:26amSanction this postReply
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I find this statement confusing from you:

The concept of Mind has caused great misery and even death. It is the basis for the anti-concept of "mental illness" whereby thousand of our fellow citizens are held in cages and given "medications" to dull their wits. That is the practical result of believing there is a ghostly Mind inside our very solid real skulls.

If you are a believer in using physical methods of describing mind, why does using drugs not make sense since they affect physical things?  Wouldn't the opposite be your conclusion, that drugs can indeed be effective?

The truth is they can be effective, but we are at a stage where they are still very hit or miss, but there is no denying that medications like anti-depressents are very effective, for some people, in improving their life.  I know this from first hand experience.




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