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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 2:47amSanction this postReply
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I would  not automatically equate financially successful with heroic. Someone may not be financially successful and yet still be a hero, e.g. Ayn Rand at the beginning of her career. If Gibson makes a film that I find morally objectionable (I haven't seen it yet) I would not think of him as a hero, even if it were courageous and successful.

By your reasoning you could call some modern artists heroes for making a profit courageously and successfully selling piles of shit to the public too.


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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
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Marcus is right, Reginald. Mel Gibson has made some good, entertaining films like Braveheart and Lethal Weapon, but his making of the Jesus Chainsaw Massacre is no act of heroism; but just the making of a snuff movie for Christians.

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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:53amSanction this postReply
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Marcus & Matthew:

You both missed the point of Firehammer's article.  Gibson's heroism is not about the aesthetics of his accomplishment (I'm not even sure how heroism can be a function of such) but his perserverance in realizing an artistic vision.  You can objectively admire his fortitude even if you do not fancy his work.

Regards,
Citizen Rat a.k.a. Bill


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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
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You're right, Citizen Rat. That's what I get for posting when I've only had four hours of sleep. My mistake. :)

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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 4:51amSanction this postReply
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"The Passion of the Christ" is more of a Cosmo-Slotnick building than a Stoddard Temple, and Mel Gibson more of a Peter Keating than a Howard Roark.

While risk-taking is admirable in a filmmaker, the most important thing about a producer lies in the CONTENT of his product.  "The Passion" is a tribute to sacrifice, mysticism, and guilt.  Regardless of how much money it makes or how courageous it was to make the film, it enshrines a fundamentally immoral message. 

Leni Riefenstahl, Mel Gibson, and other filmmakers that use their talents to promote evil are the puppets of the Ellsworth Tooheys of the world, who want a world dominated by a slave mentality.  Ms. Riefenstahl's talent was a tool of the Nazis, while Mr. Gibson is a mouthpiece for Christianity. Though both successful, they exploit the medium of film by subverting it to propaganda.

Woody Allen is much better example of a film hero.  He has always been an independent voice, producing his own films in his own way on his own terms.  And in his case, the content is consistently pro-rational, as in the case of "Crimes and Misdemeanors" and "Hannah and Her Sisters,"  both of which manage to be commercial hits while objectively exploring issues of morality and mysticism.  And in spite of Mr. Allen's tendency towards skepticism, the message in his films is ultimately pro-life, whereas Mel Gibson's work is pro-death.


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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:07amSanction this postReply
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Marcus, Matthew, Citizen Rat

(We forgive Matthew his early morning mistake, because he repented. ;>)

Citizen Rat got it right. I have a lot of sympathy with Marcus, however, wealth, especially in this day and age is certainly not proof of heroism.

The key is in the second sentence, "I do not mean he is my hero, or a hero to any particular group, but symbolically, he is an American hero."

I certainly have no use for the content of his film and have provided plenty of criticism of that:

Brutal, bloody and thin-skinned
A Passion for Pain
Passion Prattle
A Catholic Passion

Nevertheless, the fact that he had a vision, and pursued it in spite of bitter opposition and virtually no support, spending and risking his own resources and reputation and producing by his own effort that which he envisioned is the essence of what a hero does.
 
By your reasoning you could call some modern artists heroes for making a profit courageously and successfully selling piles of shit to the public too.
 
If I thought Mel Gibson was pandering, I would agree. He may have been, but I do not think so. However wrong he is, I do not doubt his sincerity, although that certainly does not make him right. I totally disagree with the content and sentiment of the film.
 
I also applauded his success, especially his financial success, as slap at all those who despise success and express pure hatred for it, such as the bitter hatred expressed toward Martha Stewart. She is another example of someone despised for her success, which, to me is her only virtue.
 
 Regi
(Edited by Reginald Firehammer on 3/12, 1:21pm)


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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:17amSanction this postReply
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Should I admire the post-modernist's fortitude in proclaiming his crap is art, and be ecstatic that some jack-ass Manhattanite pays $30,000 dollars for it?  Apparently, yes.

But hey, the crap-purveyor has fortitude.  I suppose if we bother to look deep enough, there's merit in everyone. 

So Gibson (who has made some great films) has made millions and will make millions more off  a violence- and guilt-craving culture.  Wow.


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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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Jeremy,

So Gibson (who has made some great films) has made millions and will make millions more off  a violence- and guilt-craving culture.  Wow.
 
I agree, and have stated, it is not the film, not the content, not even Gibson himself, but Gibson as a symbol of one who succeeds by means to adherence to principle and strength of character, even if the principle itself is wrong. Ayn Rand herself used characters that were wrong, but heroic, and others who were right, but essentially cowards and wafflers.

I'm not trying to convince you, and won't be disappointed if you're not convinced. See my links to criticisms I have written. I know some people understandably cannot see around the message of the film.

By the way. On another forum I received the same kind of criticism for calling Ayn Rand a hero by lots of Catholics. Everyone misses the point.

Regi


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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Now THAT's the sort of article I like to read! Challenging, on-the-edge (and maybe, at times, *off-it*), making fresh attempts to separate content from human endeavour. It is original and thought-provoking. Well done.

I have not seen the movie, but doubt that it matters. What you say rings true. Jeremy's comment is understandable, but subtly off-mark- the difference between the shit-toting modern art scam and a pursuit such as this of Mel Gibson's is one of attitude. Despite his obvious idiocy (in believing with such passion in the mysticism that is religion), Gibson *heroically* sought to portray his passions in the best way he could. This is a long way from the sneering, derisive scowl that is the battle to find the lowest rung of mankind represented by the Turner awards and the like.

Once again, well done. I leave it to the *experts* to say whether you are right or wrong. I salute you, though, for introducing a fresh perspective in the too often stale world of objectivist scholarship.


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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 3:03pmSanction this postReply
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David,

Thank your for the comments.

Despite his obvious idiocy (in believing with such passion in the mysticism that is religion), Gibson *heroically* sought to portray his passions in the best way he could. This is a long way from the sneering, derisive scowl that is the battle to find the lowest rung of mankind represented by the Turner awards and the like.
 
That is exactly the point and very well stated.

Regi


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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:05pmSanction this postReply
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I don't see how I missed the point.  I just don't agree with your point. 
-Gibson showed perserverence? 
Ok.  So did Mao. 

-He stuck to his beliefs. 
Hitler didn't? 

-He has skill in his craft. 
And?  So did "Gail Wynand". 
 (Who, BTW, seems a much better fictional comparison than "Roark".  Making money by selling crap to an eager public; doing it well and against "great odds".)

I didn't rant about how ghastly I thought the movie was.  I ranted about how surprised I was that anyone considered selling crap to crap-thirsty people as being heroic.  Just because someone stands alone in doing a thing does not make it heroic, you crazy Autonomist. : P
The thing they are doing should be  just a little bit heroic in itself.


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Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:09pmSanction this postReply
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And yeah, I get it that he was trying to portray his passions to the best of his ability.  So have a lot of really, really awful people. 

Post 12

Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 8:03amSanction this postReply
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Regi:

You wrote:
By the way. On another forum I received the same kind of criticism for calling Ayn Rand a hero by lots of Catholics. Everyone misses the point.
Well, not everyone misses the point.  As a Catholic I respect Rand for her iconoclastic courage in making a MORAL defense of capitalism in an era when doing such was beyond the pale, even for so-called capitalists.

During the Cold War we were in mortal combat with a menace that threatened to grind the human soul into dust and re-mold it into the mindless drones of the perfect communist society.  (And, of course, those who they couldn't re-mold would be eliminated.)  Yet, our political, religious, and intellectual leaders could at best only mount a utilitarian defense for our way of life.  Many were outright hostile to the free market that made our wealth, comfort, and freedom possible.

Rand (along with the then-small cadre of Hayek, Buckley, and other conservatives and libertarians) defied this suffocating intellectual conformity and spoke the truth.  Capitalism did not merely do a better job of delivering the goods, it was MORALLY superior.  She used her art, the novel, to convey this message -- and succeeded.  We now have a generation that is conversant in the morality of capitalism.

Rand's ignorance and bigotry regarding religion does not stop me from recognizing her achievement.  Indeed, justice demands it.  Gibson, as you argue, is entitled to the same.

Regards,
Citizen Rat a.k.a. Bill


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Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 9:00amSanction this postReply
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Citizen Rat said:
"Rand's ignorance and bigotry regarding religion does not stop me from recognizing her achievement."

I say:

Do you really think that you can throw in a line like this without giving any evidence?  Concerning her "ignorance" of religion: no one can live in this country for 6 months, never mind most of their adult life, and remain ignorant of religion.  It's crammed down your throat daily.  Please elaborate on why you think Rand was ignorant of religion.

As to her "bigotry" regarding religion, do you really mean that she was "obstinately or intolerantly devoted to [her] own opinions and prejudices" concerning religion?  Or does your definition of "bigot" differ from Webster's?

Thanks,
Glenn


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Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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Reginald Firehammer:
"When I said at the end of an article criticizing the movie, "There is one fact about the movie I like very much. I am delighted that Mr. Gibson is going to make a bundle ... "

This does not make Gibson heroic. If anything, it shows that we have a sick culture still far too infused with mysticism and christianity, that such a project is related to en masse instead of on a minor cult following. If someone made 500 million off a snuff film, you would condemn him, even if he expressed fortitude similar to Gibson's, say, demanding the abolition of even hollywood's standards of decency and going to the furthest extreme possible. Dedication to moral principle is an absolute sin unless done in rational self interest. we must remember that in recent times there was a similarly extreme dedication to similar moral principles as those claimed by Gibson-- only, where he made a movie for his god, these fellows saw fit to blow up the WTC in the name of theirs.

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Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 11:34amSanction this postReply
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Reginald:
"Is The Passion of the Christ really worth the millions of dollars Mel Gibson will make? According to all those who are willing to shell out hard cash to watch this movie, it is worth every penny. Who else should decide? What other measure would truly reflect what this film is worth to those who actually pay for it?"

You wouldn't be saying this if it is was a hollywood gore fest or an avante-garde postmodern hallucination spree that was making those millions. Let's make our principles consistent. either the customer is always right, in which case this logic supports postmodern art as being worth substantial sums of money also, or the customer's opinion is irrelevant

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Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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Dear Mr. Rat (a.k.a. Bill),

You wrote:

Rand's ignorance and bigotry regarding religion does not stop me from recognizing her achievement. 
 
I am curious if you have specific examples that would support Ms. Rand's "ignorance" regarding religion?  In my humble opinion she understood the metaphysical, epistemological, and ethical/moral principles of religion all too well.

Matt


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Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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Rat (as in Citizen),

Well, not everyone misses the point.
 
I know. It was rhetorical.

As a Catholic I respect Rand for her iconoclastic courage in making a MORAL defense of capitalism in an era when doing such was beyond the pale, even for so-called capitalists ... Rand (along with the then-small cadre of Hayek, Buckley, and other conservatives and libertarians) defied this suffocating intellectual conformity and spoke the truth.  Capitalism did not merely do a better job of delivering the goods, it was MORALLY superior.
 
Yes, exactly.

Rand's ignorance and bigotry regarding religion does not stop me from recognizing her achievement.  Indeed, justice demands it.  Gibson, as you argue, is entitled to the same.
 
Obviously you understood my point, but you are mistaken about Ayn Rand's understanding of religion. She was, as a matter of fact, on good terms with a number of religious leaders, whom she always showed decency and respect. She made no bones about the fact she considered religion irrational and superstitious in nature. She also thought religion was dangerous. Recent history has certainly demonstrated it is.

I also believe religion is a mistake. Some versions are worse mistakes than others, and some are quite innocuous, but still a mistake. There is not a single organized religion that does not have elements that are contrary to both reason and evidence, which are nevertheless, "believed," by the religion's adherents. Objectivism obviously rejects such beliefs as superstition.

I also reject such beliefs. Does that make me a bigot?

Regi


Post 18

Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, (Eric, Jeremy)

Where are the capitalists, the Objectivist economists, the free-marketeers? Did I post this to the wrong forum?

"There is one fact about the movie I like very much. I am delighted that Mr. Gibson is going to make a bundle ... " This does not make Gibson heroic.  

Of course not. I did not say it did. He is a symbolic hero because he pursued what he believed was right in the face of overwhelming opposition.

My reason for being jubilant about his financial success is totally different, and something all the so-called Objectivist Capitalists completely miss.

First I'll comment on what you said.

If anything, it shows that we have a sick culture still far too infused with mysticism and christianity, that such a project is related to en masse instead of on a minor cult following. True but irrelevant.

If someone made 500 million off a snuff film, you would condemn him, even if he expressed fortitude similar to Gibson's, say, demanding the abolition of even hollywood's standards of decency and going to the furthest extreme possible. Gibson's film has actually been called a "snuff film." I would be glad he made 500 million, whatever I thought of the film.

Dedication to moral principle is an absolute sin unless done in rational self interest. we must remember that in recent times there was a similarly extreme dedication to similar moral principles as those claimed by Gibson-- only, where he made a movie for his god, these fellows saw fit to blow up the WTC in the name of theirs. But the financial success of any product is in my self-interest. (Blowing up buildings and killing people must not be compared to producing a product people willing spend their money for. This is a great confusion.)

Finally, Let's make our principles consistent. either the customer is always right, in which case this logic supports postmodern art as being worth substantial sums of money also, or the customer's opinion is irrelevant. The customer is always right. ALWAYS!
 
That is what a free market means. A free market is not a way of guaranteeing everyone will always make wise choices, or that the objectively best product will always win, or that those who promote trash and pander to people's ignorance and weakness will never become rich. The free market means, whatever people freely choose to spend their money on, wins; but, that also means, anyone is free to produce whatever they choose and attempt to market it, including what is of real objective value. If a society is so decadent there is no market at all for what is of real value, no amount of market fiddling will save such a society anyway.

Now here is what all you Objectivists are missing. The value of your money is determined by two things 1. the amount of money there is, and 2. the amount of goods there are competing for that money. Since we live in the age of fiat money, our money is always losing value, because the governments, our own and those of the world, are always increasing the money supply.

The only thing that keeps our money from becoming worthless is the fact that so many are producing so much that people want to spend their money on. It does not matter a particle if the products are objectively good or objectively worthless, when someone spends there money for any product, that is so much less that can be spent for products of real objective value.

The point is that every time some fool spends his money on something worthless, or worse, something degrading and self-destructive, it increases the value of your money. If it weren't for McDonald's, Burger King, and all the other fast-foot businesses, the $15.00 steak you enjoy at a better restaurant would cost you $50.00. Every time you enjoy listening to classical music, say a silent thank-you to all those "artists" and recording studios producing the trash you despise for providing a sink-hole for all that money the ignorant spend on it that would otherwise be competing for the music you enjoy, but would not be able to afford.

Regi 




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Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 4:13amSanction this postReply
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Regi,

I think your economics are backwards.  The more people spend on a particular type of product, the more economy of scale manufacturers can employ and the cheaper that product will become for everbody.  Supply and demand only works in the way you describe in the short run or for certain naturally limited products like gold necklaces.


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