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Post 80

Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
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Reading all the various comments in this thread, I can only come to one conclusion: apart from some rational voices - like Matthew, Logan, Chris, Reginald etc - the rest of the commentary sounds like the warblings of government mouthpieces and mass-media tarts. There seems to be no skepticism of the official line at all.

Do most of you believe everything you read in the papers or see on TV? Ah, three cheers for the "Ministry of Truth"!

And why is no one discussing the "elephant in the living room"?

This whole Islamic terrorist phenomena is based on two fundamental issues - the continuing non-resolution of the occupation of Palestine by the Israelis, and the ever-present activities of the USA in the Arab world - whether by proxy, or directly.

I'm not even convinced Bin Laden and Al Queda were responsible for the 911 atrocity. He denied it when asked at that time - which seems very odd, as terrorists are never shy in claiming responsibility.

Not only that, the modus operandi of the 911 plot was of a scale and design unseen before or since. I don't see how any rational person can automatically claim it was Al Queda, when there remain so many unanswered questions.

I think Al Queda have let responsibility for the attack settle on them - as it suits their purposes to have others believe they are that powerful.

Think about it. Until 911, "terrorism" was not a big issue. It is as old as history, and it is always on the margins of society. Only one event raised it to the centre of the world stage - the attack on the World Trade Centre.

At that point a "war on terrorism" was declared. And what a bogus concept it is! May as well have declared a "war on religion" - as that is what this war certainly is, as the terrorists are surely motivated by their religious beliefs.

And where will this religious war end up? In tears for sure.

I think the USA made a fatal mistake in deciding to wage war on Islam. It is a war like no other. War, as we understand it historically, is something waged between nations, with visible territory and military targets.

A war on terrorism, is a war on an idea, a motivation, an ideology - a religion.

How do you win a war against an idea - with guns and bombs?

Are we asking what, exactly, these terrorists want - what fuels their hatred? What is their purpose? Well, they state it quite clearly. They are Islamic fundamentalists, and they want Americans out of their lands and Israelis out of Palestine. That's what they want - the "infidels" out of the lands of Islam.

Saying Islamic terrorists are motivated by their hatred of our freedoms is a complete crock. And such a false conclusion can only lead to a false solution - what we are seeing now, the escalation of violence around the world, with no apparent end in sight. Violence begets violence.

The solution is quite simple.

Mind your own business.

The liberal mindset has taken hold worldwide - constantly wanting to interfere in the affairs of other people - to "help" them, for their own good.

I wonder how many Americans are thinking to themselves, as they watched the news of American citizens being killed, dismembered and dragged though the streets of Falujah, "yes, I want to help those poor Iraqis".

Hogwash!

I say leave everyone alone. Let those whose belief systems and culture cause them to wallow in poverty, disease and violence, simply be left to the consequences of such beliefs and actions. Let them die and rot if they insist. So what?

I've had it with "helping" people - who don't even want to help themselves.

The whole drive of western, developed nations - to want to improve and change the lives of everyone on the planet (whether they want it or not) - is fundamentally flawed.

The world is full of economic and political basket cases. And people get the "politics" they deserve - whether it's because of their religious beliefs, superstitions, cultural habits, or simply fear of revolt. Nothing will change for the better, until and unless such peoples rise out of the ashes of their own despair - by their own volition and will - and make such changes themselves.

The Arab world is a mess? Let it remain so. Let those who live there work out the best way to solve their own problems.

Africa a basket case? Let it be a basket case.

Iraq was under a brutal dictator? Well, let the Iraqis topple him themselves.

By contrast, consider China. Historically, surely a case for international interference. A communist state, with political suppression, human rights violations - the lot. But history is proving that the best way for the Chinese to rise above their own past is to make the changes themselves. Fortunately, for them, they have a practical streak - and this leads them to see the advantage of change. Not only that, they sank to the depths of communist practice - and know it failed them.

Just as an individual alcoholic or drug addict cannot be "helped" by others - but must sink to the bottom, in order to get the will to live, and do something about it - so it is with with groups of people (nations). No amount of external help, pressure, education or force can get people to change their own lives - unless THEY want to.

America has a simple choice. Continue with its foreign policy of open and hidden interference with other countries (military, diplomatic, economic) - or withdraw to its own borders and mind its own business.

I make a prediction.

America will lose this "war". And in losing it, it will expend and ruin its own "capital" - both economic and moral.






Post 81

Friday, April 2, 2004 - 4:44amSanction this postReply
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Mr. MacGregor,

Your post is the most lucid and cogent analysis of the absurd, so-called, "war on terror," I have seen. I agree with every point you made (and wish I had made them).

There is only one thing you said which I would modify.

Are we asking what, exactly, these terrorists want - what fuels their hatred? What is their purpose? Well, they state it quite clearly. They are Islamic fundamentalists, and they want Americans out of their lands and Israelis out of Palestine. That's what they want - the "infidels" out of the lands of Islam.

I agree this is one reason they hate Americans and America, but their ambitions are more than just ridding the Middle East of American influence. You correctly identified Islam as an ideology, and part of that ideology is the intention to make the whole world an Islamic state. This dream is an impossibility, with one exception; if the US continues to aid and support these Muslim countries, even by removing despotic tyrants, we are aiding an avowed enemy that will eventually overwhelm us. The long-term results of, "freeing the Iraqi people," will turn out to be, "empowering our Iraqi Muslim enemies."

This was very poignant:

I wonder how many Americans are thinking to themselves, as they watched the news of American citizens being killed, dismembered and dragged though the streets of Falujah, "yes, I want to help those poor Iraqis".
 
My wife said when we first learned of this horror, "doesn't it do your heart good to know our sons have died to save these wonderful people?"

Regi




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Post 82

Friday, April 2, 2004 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for your comments Regi.

I hadn't considered the possibility of Islamic fundamentalists wanting to take over the WHOLE world - but, as you say, it's an impossible dream - unless we hand it to them on a plate.





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Post 83

Saturday, May 8, 2004 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Well, I was wrong about the Iraq war.
 
Some weeks ago I suggested that the only consistent rationale left for supporting Bush's war was an altruistic one -- the U.S. government sacrificed hundreds of Americans and extorted hundreds of billions from taxpayers, expropriating the wealth out of the country and spending it in a Third World Islamic wasteland to liberate oppressed people and feed them, house them, school them, medicate them, set up a new government for them, and do all the other things a compassionate, paternalistic welfare super-state is supposed to do. Well, not even THAT has been achieved.
 
Now that the U.S. occupiers have engaged in the same sort of disgusting human rights violations as Saddam engaged in, the altruistic argument (implicit, at least in part, in all of the calls to war and more pronounced as the other rationales proved baseless) can't credibly be advanced.
 
It must come as a big surprise to "libertarian" war/occupation mongers that most Iraqis don't want U.S. Big Government paternalism. Why wouldn't they want the charity and guidance of a parent? Why don't they recognize how primitive they are compared to U.S. government planners (oops, I mean, "America"..."us"..."we"...as true patriots regard their government)?
 
Perhaps the worst thing about this evil war/occupation is that another generation of Arabs will hate the United States and pray for the death of its citizens because of the atrocities committed by U.S. military savages (or, rather, "America"..."us"..."we"...as the nuke-em-all jingoist Objecto-fascist Peikoffists insist...and as the Islamo-fascists identically perceive and advance with equal "us vs. them" collectivist fervor). Hundreds of billions of dollars down the drain...thousands dead...for nothing. For less than nothing.
 
Nevertheless, I'm sure I'll be reminded by "Objectivist" Bush admirers that politicians have the "right" (but not the obligation, mind you) to launch wars on any country that is unfree (relatively speaking, since there are no free countries). Any, some, or all such unfree countries. It's totally up to the politicians. (It's a positive, open-ended special sort of right that these politicians enjoy.) They have the right...to tax, extort, lie, torture, and kill. Because that's what they're doing now. It's moral. Because the Iraq war/occupation is moral. Because government's role isn't limited to acting in defense of citizens. There is a greater good. Government's role is to fight evil wherever it may exist. Government activism? Nah. Government has the right! Rights-talk projected onto Big Government makes it sound libertarian...even Objectivist...doesn't it? And when the government commits evils against citizens at home and innocents abroad...well, all that really matters is that the end is noble. The end, of course, is fighting evil.
 
-Logan
www.individualistvoice.com





Post 84

Saturday, May 8, 2004 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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Logan, Chris, Jeremy, Mathew et al.

Thanks for demonstrating there are a few "objectivists" who live their lives as if they mattered. I don't see any possible coexistence of the *ARBITRARY* invasion of countries with a philosophy of *RATIONAL* self-interest. No war-mongering reply is required since the position has already been presented many times. Just voicing my approval for the anti-war camp.

Dave



Post 85

Sunday, May 9, 2004 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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Logan,

Well, I was wrong about the Iraq war. Some weeks ago I suggested that the only consistent rationale left for supporting Bush's war was an altruistic one ...Now ... U.S. occupiers have engaged in the same sort of disgusting human rights violations as Saddam ....

Thanks for being properly outraged at the outrageous and expressing it with the passion it deserves.

(I mentioned and linked your post here: Post 75,  on the "The Nuclear Option" thread.)

Regi

(Edited by Reginald Firehammer on 5/09, 6:57am)




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