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Saturday, April 3, 2004 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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Greetings.

This statement can be "signed" electronically simply by placing your name in a post here.

I am
G. Stolyarov II


Post 1

Saturday, April 3, 2004 - 7:15amSanction this postReply
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Pretty good summary of what I would like Objectivism to be. The problem is that 'Objectivism' is the intellectual property of the estate of Ayn Rand. So, much as we would like to co-opt it, 'Objectivism' is not really ours to define. That is why SOLO is so great. We use the good stuff from Objectivism and integrate it into a great sum. I guess I would simply substitute 'Sense of Life Objectivism' for 'Objectivism' and leave it at that.

Post 2

Saturday, April 3, 2004 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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My signiture of endorsement will be found at the bottom of this post. First, however, a point regarding Resolve 12 which states:

"Works of art are reflections of the metafysical and ethical premises held by their authors. The purpose of a rational esthetics is to convey those impressions and values that are in accord with a universe where man can and should exist as a free, prosperous, active entity."

This statement of artistic purpose is clear, but it may be in direct conflict with Resolve 10 which states:

"Any government intervention with regard to an establishment of religion or ideology is immoral and intolerable, as is any coercive imposition of ideology upon an individual by any entity."

The esthetic preference for romantic realism appears in this context to be the coercive imposition of an ideology by an entity. I have similar views about art, but I feel the explicit edict for that preference is out of place in this "Objectivist Statement of Resolves". As an Objectivist, I shy away from imposing my tastes as the moral imperative of someone else's creative expression. This is of course semantic and I otherwise excitedly endorse these resolves with my signature.

David C. Voigt



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Post 3

Saturday, April 3, 2004 - 7:23pmSanction this postReply
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Without taking anything away from Mr Stolyarov's intent here - & let me take this opportunity to salute & thank him for the volume & enthusiasm of his input to this site - I would not want to sign this in its current form.

Wearing my editor's hat, I regard it as unnecessarily & often clumsily wordy. A declaration of this sort should *sing*, not stomp.

Wearing my SOLOist hat, I regard it as mistaken in certain respects. The early resolves, for instance, read like a manual on rationalism - all deduction, no induction. There is no mention of the evidence of the senses or the processing of percepts. Perhaps these things are there by implication, but given the notorious susceptibility of Objectivists to rationalism, I think they should be spelled out.

Equally & incredibly, unless I missed it, there is no specific mention of an individual's happiness as his highest moral purpose. In its current form this document reads like a joyless, pedantic recitation of dreary chores rather than an invitation to rise & savour the joy that rising engenders.

Then too, I think there is the oft-committed error here of treating "rights" as metaphysical, when they are *concepts* derived *from* the metaphysical attributes of rationality & volition.

Unlike a poster above, I don't have a problem with the esthetic resolve: there is no suggestion, even by implication, that Objectivists would seek to ban vicious "art," even though it *is* vicious.

I don't think I could sign up to the prohibition of "insults" among Objectivists. In this Age of Umbrage people take offence far too readily at the first sign of disagreement. I myself have flung epithets at the ARI & TOC that I don't consider to be "insults" - since I can back them up - but that would probably be proscribed under this resolve. Better to resolve simply to be supportive of all people who, in good faith, propagate these resolves, & let unimpeded free speech take its course thereafter.

Oh, & I certainly don't go along with this 'f' instead of 'ph' business! I couldn't possibly sign something riddled with spelling errors! :-)








Post 4

Saturday, April 3, 2004 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. DeSalvo: The problem is that 'Objectivism' is the intellectual property of the estate of Ayn Rand. So, much as we would like to co-opt it, 'Objectivism' is not really ours to define.

Mr. Stolyarov: I am glad that we agree on the basic premises within this statement and see the need to actively evaluate and develop Rand's ideas. But, though you wish to undertake this extrapolation, you still seem to view "Objectivism" per se as a "closed system." The word already encompasses a set of fundamental axioms necessary for rational living, but the system as Rand developed it is by no means complete or flawless. I do not think it necessary to draw an artificial distinction between "Objectivism" and "the extrapolations" that rests not on absolute conclusions of logic but on the circumstance that Rand did not live long enough to reach some of the extrapolations herself, as this creates the impression of a disjoint rather than an integrated set of ideas. It is at times necessary to state which ideas directly originated from Rand, and which were devised later (to give due credit to Rand and the later thinkers), but "intellectual property" should not be used to pre-empt the development of an entire field, such as Objectivism. Besides, thinkers such as David Kelley have extensively employed "Objectivism" in their definitions of both Rand's thoughts and newer derivations. Even Kelley's own organization is called The Objectivist Center. Surely you do not think that Kelley is guilty of violating the Rand Estate's intellectual property rights. Here is Kelley's approach to the matter:  

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/articles/dkelley_objectivism-chapter5-contested-legacy.asp

" In epistemology, for example, the one issue that Ayn Rand dealt with in detail was the nature of concepts and universals. Her Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology is comparable in its systematic character to the writings of Aristotle or Locke on this question. Beyond a brief suggestion, however, she wrote nothing about the nature of propositions, an issue that is essential for a viable theory of truth. In regard to the senses, her distinction between what we perceive and the form in which we perceive it is the key that solves the traditional puzzles of perception, but using the key is not a trivial matter; a great many subordinate questions must be answered to formulate and validate the distinction properly. Ayn Rand identified the fact that knowledge is hierarchical and contextual, insights that I have relied upon throughout this essay, and that point to the solution of many traditional problems in epistemology. But a pointer is not a solution. Objectivism does not yet have well-developed answers to such questions as what constitutes proof; or how to draw the line between the arbitrary and the false. Nor does it have an adequate theory of induction and scientific explanation.

An analysis of other areas in philosophy would reveal the same pattern: great insights that are partially developed in some directions, not at all in others. If Objectivism is to survive and flourish as a system of thought, it must attract philosophers who will build on Ayn Rand's discoveries, using them as a base for an assault on specific problems in philosophy and drawing out their implications for other disciplines such as economics, psychology, or literary theory. And Objectivism is more than a theoretical structure; it is a philosophy to live by. Over time, the accumulated experience of those who practice it will produce a moral tradition, a body of reflection about the issues that arise in applying the principles. As this happens, the philosophic content of Objectivism will become more complex and detailed. Philosophers who specialize in various fields will address issues that Ayn Rand did not consider, and put forward ideas that were not hers."

Mr. Voigt: As an Objectivist, I shy away from imposing my tastes as the moral imperative of someone else's creative expression. This is of course semantic and I otherwise excitedly endorse these resolves with my signature.

Mr. Stolyarov: First, thank you for your signature and your enthusiasm. My view on Resolve 12 is that "impressions and values that are in accord with a universe where man can and should exist as a free, prosperous, active entity" are broad enough to encompass certain artistic styles and movements apart from the Romantic Realist movement (which, of course, fits these classifications). For example, still life can portray objects of taste and luxury that provide great enjoyment to man and improve his condition in life. Historical paintings may also qualify, such as David's "Death of Socrates," which, though set during the great thinker's last hours, conveys his dignity and resolve in the face of his persecutors. I could even imagine a designer of creative geometric patterns claiming that his works are founded on strict mathematical logic, which is essential to man's existence. 

I agree that this point was raised due to a semantic issue. Nevertheless, I am inclined to think that an artist following the style of Picasso or Jackson Pollock has certain very objectionable value-premises behind his work, and I doubt that such a man would be willing to come anywhere near endorsing Objectivist ideas.

I am
G. Stolyarov II 


 


Post 5

Saturday, April 3, 2004 - 11:08pmSanction this postReply
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Um, I don't think trying to define what 'Objectivism' is, is a good idea.  Rand is looking down on you from heaven right now, livid with rage.  She's chastising you as we speak ;)  Objectivism is the trademark of the Rand estate.  Better to define your own philosophy 'with acknowledgements' to Objectivism.

As regards your 'resolves', I think there is a lot missing.  There's nothing there on many key concepts:  contextual certainty, induction, evasion, benevolence and many more.

I especially disagree with Resolve 11:

"Resolve 11. Objectivism does not acknowledge any entity superior in status to man, or any entity whose existence is wholly or partly off-limits to human comprehension."
 
There is no reason for believing that man is the apex of evolution.  The universe could be populated by many alien beings with intellectual abilities far superior to man.  And even if it is not, human beings will continue to evolve.     


Post 6

Saturday, April 3, 2004 - 11:46pmSanction this postReply
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"Resolve 11. Objectivism does not acknowledge any entity superior in status to man, or any entity whose existence is wholly or partly off-limits to human comprehension."
 
Marc, I think the first part means that no entity is above man in status as a being retaining free will and the right to life.  No being, at any stage of evolution, has a right to life- and its pertinent requirements--above that of Man.  For instance, God.  God's will is seen as being superior to Man's will, therefore negating Man's unique (as far as we know) status as a being fully capable and justified of free, independent life.  No being can place itself above Man with regard to its right to life, as humans do concerning unthinking animals.  If aliens were to set down tomorrow on the plains of Iowa, they would have no greater claim to natural rights than Man.

Over all, these resolves are pretty good.  I like Perigo's suggestion of making them more "singing" though.  The resolves are philosophically life-affirming, but the tone lacks the soaring triumph I've seen in other G. works.  For instance, his poem "Liberty In Exile". 

Philosophical axioms presented as "Resolves" shouldn't be reduced  (haha) to sonnet form, but they can display the "Philosophy of Human Flourishing" and Anthem-like inclinations invoked by both Rand and "neo-Objectivists"(whatever the hell that means).

I like the Resolves, and I'll "sign" if a bit of refinement is in the works.

Great work, G.

J


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Post 7

Sunday, April 4, 2004 - 12:42amSanction this postReply
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"Marc, I think the first part means that no entity is above man in status as a being retaining free will and the right to life.  No being, at any stage of evolution, has a right to life- and its pertinent requirements--above that of Man.  For instance, God.  God's will is seen as being superior to Man's will, therefore negating Man's unique (as far as we know) status as a being fully capable and justified of free, independent life.  No being can place itself above Man with regard to its right to life, as humans do concerning unthinking animals.  If aliens were to set down tomorrow on the plains of Iowa, they would have no greater claim to natural rights than Man."

Well, your more mild statement is not the impression one gets from reading Resolve 11.  And I still don't agree with your statement either.

If  entity A has greater volitional consciousness than entity B, entity A has a greater free will and thus should have more rights.  You can see this even with humans.  Children don't have all the rights that adults do.  There are some rights that adults have that children don't have, because adults have an expanded range of volitional consciousness.  There is no reason for believing that man's degree of volitional consciousness is any where near the limit of what is possible.  Entities with a vastly greater degree of volitional consciousness than man, would have more rights than man (although I should make clear that this doen't mean that any of man's rights would be taken away).  To claim that no being can place itself above man is nothing but  anthropomorphism.



Post 8

Sunday, April 4, 2004 - 1:17amSanction this postReply
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By acknowledging that Man as he is is potentially capable of perceiving all aspects of reality, you accept that no other entity has senses which extend farther than Man's abilities of perception, unless that "superior being" is perceiving some reality ineffable to humans...in which case, it's a fantasy.  Unless you don't accept that Man is able to grasp reality. 

If you're talking about calculation skills, or memory skills, or speed of thought, that's a whole different area, where species could differ in ability.  If there is one reality, and two separate species of sentient life (no matter the disparities between their particular species' abilities of thought) can grasp it, they possess equal rights (generally).  No more, no less. 

It always comes back to aliens and robots with Objectivism, doesn't it?  8^P


Post 9

Sunday, April 4, 2004 - 1:26amSanction this postReply
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Oh jeez.  On second thought, noticing a post or two in which you've denied the potential certainty of Man's cognitive abilities, just ignore that last post, Marc.  It won't do me or anyone else any good arguing that Man is capable of knowing if the person I'm (amicably) arguing with denies the ability to know

Thanks!



Post 10

Sunday, April 4, 2004 - 1:51amSanction this postReply
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Mr Stolyarov: "I am inclined to think that an artist following the style of Picasso or Jackson Pollock has certain very objectionable value-premises behind his work, and I doubt that such a man would be willing to come anywhere near endorsing Objectivist ideas."

Mr Voigt: I give humanity much credit, and I would like to think I am open to previously unheard of possibilities. As such, I must concede that there MAY BE artists employing an abstract style who embrace objectivist ideas. Perhaps if we wish to continue an artistic debate it may occur on another thread (I am sure we both have a lot to say on that one!!). I don't want to deflect this conversation away from your "resolves".

I signed/endorsed your "resolves" out of a feeling of good will and shared values. The debate will rage endlessly about which "resolve" needs to be added or changed. Thus we are again taught the lesson that the pool of objectivists is a diverse one. A closed system it is not.

By the way, even if we all unequivocally accept a set of "resolves", they will only be a set of "initial conditions" from which all manner of complex behavior and conclusions will grow. Case and point, look at our group here at SOLO. Embracing the SAME CORE VALUES has given us Perigo, Sciabarra, Logan Feyes, Reginald Firehammer, and of course you, Mr. Stolyarov. I have trouble believing we all share a species let alone a particular philosophy for living on earth!!! : )

I will enjoy reading this discussion, but it would be much more fun castigating communists and eco-nazis rather than other objectivists (an idea based on Resolve 14 and the SOLO Credo ; ) ).












Post 11

Sunday, April 4, 2004 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Stolyarov,

Thank you!

Regi

(Edited by Reginald Firehammer on 4/05, 5:26pm)


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Post 12

Sunday, April 4, 2004 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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If I were writing this in Russian, I would start with the tale of the drunken carpenter who "improves" a table by hacking its legs off. Stolyarov's list demonstrates, once again, that those who would bawdlerize a masterpiece tend to cut out the best parts. Here is a very short list of what our "Filosofer" cut off:

Metaphysics: Existence is identity.

Epistemology: Knowledge is identification. To be aware is to be aware of something that exists. All knowledge is derived from the evidence of the senses. All principles, including axioms, come from induction. Objectivity starts with measurement. Concepts are formed by omitting measurements from objectively identified concretes. A logical deduction is only known to be valid within the contextual scope of the facts of reality from which the deduction is drawn.

Ethics: "Value" presupposes "to whom" and "for what". For a living entity, life is existence, and therefore a precondition of any other value. Man has specific rights, in the sense of pre-conditions of human life. All other values depend on securing the pre-conditions of life. The "Barometer Principle": happiness of the self, Man's only built-in goal, is a biologically evolved measuring instrument that measures one's accomplishment of life.

Politics: Cooperation and trade enhance one's life only as long as one's rights, in the sense of conditions appropriate to human life, are preserved. Therefore rational men engage in cooperation and trade only with those who respect their rights - and this is why legitimate limits on men's freedom of action in a social context correspond to respect for the rights of other men. Political rights are secondary to, and derived from, individual rights and Capitalism.

Aesthetics: The function of Art is to provide Man with a concrete representation of his metaphysical value judgements, and thus to make it possible for Man to experience his senses, emotions, knowledge and judgement as an integrated whole.

If you have guessed that what Stolyarov cuts off are all the actual Objectivist foundations of the objective philosophical sciences, you are entirely right. Rand save us from the blathering of ignorant newbies.


Post 13

Sunday, April 4, 2004 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Reed, 

I guess you have not learned, we are not allowed to disagree with G. Soly 2.

Check you brownie ... I mean, "Atlas" points.

Regi

(Edited by Reginald Firehammer on 4/05, 5:32pm)


Post 14

Monday, April 5, 2004 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Stolyarov's "Resolves" represent the objectivist/subjectivist paradox in full blown form.

Striving for a comprehensive definition of objectivism, he makes progress in some areas, but falls short of a perfect statement in other areas.

As finite beings striving to comprehend a far larger external Universe, this is inevitable for all of us.  No finite being can "think" of "everything."

Like others, I found Stolyarov's Resolve 11 particularly disturbing.  While in general I'd agree that no area of inquiry is "off-limits", it would be irrational for finite beings to expect to achieve complete knowledge of "everything." 

The very fact that man created a science of theology, means that inquiry into the Mind of God is not "off-limits."  But man should never expect to know the Mind of God.  Like all other "sciences", the science of theology is incomplete.  But it's certainly not "off-limits." 

At first I was disturbed by Stolyarov's statement, "Objectivism does not acknowledge any entity superior in status to man ..."  Then I looked up the word "entity" in my dictionary.  It says, "something that has separate and distinct existence and objective or conceptual reality."  If Stoyarov could agree that God is not an "entity" in the sense of something having a "separate and distinct existence" and an "objective or conceptual reality", then perhaps I could agree with Resolve 11.  I'd still have problems with it, but we'd have to get past the Big Problem first.

It's interesting that Stolyarov styles his statement as "Resolves."  That I take to mean that he's striving to make a comprehensive statement about what "objectivism" is, and that's good.  I hope that the fact that the task that he has set for himself is riddled with internal complexity doesn't stop him from trying, because to do so would be to abandon his humanity along with his "resolve."  I doubt that he'll ever get there, but for his sake, I hope that he keeps trying.


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Post 15

Monday, April 5, 2004 - 9:28amSanction this postReply
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Reed, Firehammer,

I think that you are both over-reacting to Stolyarov's intention and/or competence (actually, to your apparent perceptions of the aforementioned - ie. premature evaluation). 

Don't you both think that it is important to keep in context the factors that undoubtedly spawned a "resolution" idea in the first place (ie. recent events - regarding "Henry" for example - that turned out unnecessarily sour).  I do not mean to imply blame by this "sour" comment.  I'm merely implying that there are sub-optimal consequences to not having a set of rational criteria to measure both agreement & progress in logical discussions, which is something that Stolyarov obviously understands and is indeed concerned about. 

In other words, Stolyarov is obviously attempting to preempt further unnecessary counter-productivity in this forum, and perhaps other forums that may welcome such instruction.  From this "new" - and perhaps "superior" - perspective his numbered items are able to be integrated in a noncontradictory fashion (by first understanding what was genetically prior - ie. what he was "reacting against" when he wrote them). 

In this new light, Mr. Reed's comments lose their appropriateness as issues are not joined (Reed is complaining of incompleteness in the platform built, assuming that it was supposed to support all of Objectivism).

I am curious to hear both of your responses to my criticism of your criticisms.


See far, soar high;

Eddie "the Eagle" - or just "Eddie" as my friends have often called me (formerly "Ed" - before update & integration to avoid contradiction & confusion with Mr. Youngkin's identifier)


Post 16

Monday, April 5, 2004 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ed Thompson

Oh yes, I agree with everything you say.

Regi

 


Post 17

Monday, April 5, 2004 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Firehammer: "Mr. Reed,  I guess you have not learned, we are not allowed to disagree with [Mr. Stolyarov]. Check [your] brownie ... I mean, 'Atlas' points."

Mr. Stolyarov: Are you aware, Mr. Firehammer, of the fact that I had prior to yesterday contributed about 15 Atlas Points to your standing, despite our disagreements? It was not the nature of your quarrel that caused me to withdraw these sanctions, but the manner in which you leapt at my throat when the opportunity presented itself (i.e. when you began to reverberate Mr. Reed's contemptuous and out-of-place commentary). I had made indispensable contributions to that Atlas icon on your screen, and now I deemed it imperative to likewise take it away, with additional non-sanctions to represent my displeasure at the post on this board (which, of course, you had removed). I consider this to be giving the "wolf" a rabies shot; painful, yes, but the only means to attempt to pre-empt further lunges and to cause him to change his ways.

When I receive an apology, your Atlas count will once again rise. I would also suggest making contributions to the gallery here; apparently you like David's "Death of Socrates," which I had contributed, yet you go ahead without reservation launching ad hominem remarks in complete neglect of the values that you had received from me.

I will respond to the non-vitriolic portion of Mr. Reed's commentary, as well as the other posts here, in the near future. Note, however, that Mr. Perigo, Mr. Geddes, et. al. have expressed their concerns with the statement as well, and there have been no withdrawals of sanction from me.

I am
G. Stolyarov II


Post 18

Monday, April 5, 2004 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Stolyarov, Mr. Reed,

My comment was to Mr. Reed, not you. It was sarcasm, aimed at the infantile psychology of the thin-skinned who cannot tolerate criticism or diagreement. I never assumed it was you, and am quite suprised that you would use this method to express you frustration with what you cannot answer with clear reason.

When I receive an apology, your Atlas count will once again rise. I would also suggest making contributions to the gallery here; apparently you like David's "Death of Socrates," which I had contributed, yet you go ahead without reservation launching ad hominem remarks in complete neglect of the values that you had received from me.
 
Oh, wow, thanks! All I have to do is apologize for expressing my honest opinion, and you will return my browny points. Sorry, I do not brown nose anyone, even if they are the "second" of something, to get anything. (The David's "Death of Socrates," is a mistake, I never meant, but the current system apparently does not allow any means of removing such mistakes.)

As for "ad hominem," remarks, there is no such thing. An, "ad hominem," is a well defined logical fallacy, not something someone says one does not like.

If  you think I have received anything of value from you, please feel free to take it back. It is of no value to me, and I do not what it. 

(Lighten up, will you? What the heck do you care what someone else says? You'll never be free as long as you're worried about what other people say or think. I'm not your enemy. I just disagree with you.)

Good grief!

(At least you have provided some good entertainment for my wife. She said to me, "don't Russian mothers teach their children, sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me?")

Regi




Post 19

Monday, April 5, 2004 - 9:07pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Firehammer,

If you think I am offended, you are mistaken. However, that does not mean that I approve of the posting in question. I take issue with the following:

* The manner in which you mentioned my "wordiness"-- it is quite all right to discuss it and to say that you consider the Statement to contain superfluous verbiage, yet the manner in which you stated this seemed to imply some inherent deficiency on my part that Mr. Reed apparently lacks. Besides, you had endorsed the remainder of his post, which is by far more disgusting than anything you have placed here.

* The mindset you have displayed in alienating those who have either given you values or have potential values to offer and the attention you devote to disparaging other advocates of reason are precisely the trends that this Statement of Resolves tries to overcome (disdain your potential allies, and your enemies will soon come knocking at your door-- and you are not an enemy). Vicious backbiting, more than honest criticism, is what the Statement is intended to put a voluntary halt to. I think I handled the matter quite well; I do not like to resort to insults, especially against persons such as yourself, but a withdrawal of sanction was indeed appropriate.

I am
G. Stolyarov II


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