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Post 60

Friday, April 16, 2004 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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Faithful Rodent said

"After all, it doesn't persuade me in the least of the validity of your argument. "

Let me pursuade you then:

I have no scientific proof that that Joe said was true, but I know its true as there is room for truth in the uncaused causes of the world. God told me it was true and that you need to repent your sins.

Don't believe me?

Prove that what I said isn't true!


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Post 61

Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:43amSanction this postReply
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I am compelled to interject briefly here, but I have no intent to wrest this excellent debate from its primary interlocutors. Just one point I must address.

I am intrigued, Bill, by your ability to claim in an earlier post that:

"I prefer my faith because it does not contradict my experience of volition and consciousness, which are evidence that reality does consist of something more than matter and mechanics."

and then in a more recent post claim:

"Calvinists adhere to predestination, not Catholics. Perhaps, you are confusing God's omniscience with predestination. The Church makes it clear that your fate is in your hands, which is why God equipped you with a free will."

This demonstrates that you maintain a contradiction. You claim human existence includes volition. Yet you then claim "God" to be omniscient, or he is aware of things that have not yet occurred. To be aware of "something" is to be aware of something that exists. Since these things god is aware of exist, than that sounds to me like determinism.

My intent with this post is to persuade you reconcile your claim of an "omniscient" god with your belief in volition, as they appear to me to be contradictory. It is so rare to enjoy a civil exploration of ideas with person of "faith" without it disintegrating to insults or anger. I had to jump in.

Thanks
Dave

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Post 62

Friday, April 16, 2004 - 10:43pmSanction this postReply
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A fascinating discussion thus far.

 

I am a life-long atheist, having grown up in a crumbling Soviet Union in a family where political convictions ranged from disillusioned ex-Marxists (my grandparents) to Objectivists (myself). As regards religion, it is the matter on which my ideas are closest to those of Marx himself, though, ironically enough, Marx lumped religion in with the inherent flaws of capitalistic society, as he perceived them. I think the only reason that he was able to get away with this package-dealing for so long was because, in fact, he was up against some formidable theistic defenders of capitalism who existed both before and during his time (Frederic Bastiat is an excellent example; he cites the "virtues" of religion frequently in his essays, but contends that these ought to be left free of government "encouragement).

 

Similarly, I consider it imperative that we recognize the rightful merit of such defenders of capitalism as Citizen Rat, though we may rightfully criticize and point out flaws in his epistemological approach toward such issues as volition in a material universe. Reading this discussion, to which Citizen Rat generously contributed his time and provided plenty of intellectual practice for myself at least in examining and selectively processing his arguments, I was rather dismayed to have become aware of certain nonsanction votes against some of his even innocent posts (such as those communicating personal experiences or motives, like his post to Mr. Bisno). I do not think this is the proper means to exercise the non-sanction. Disagreement and disgrace are two absolutely different things. (For example, I would not sanction a post that stated, “Stolyarov, though you are an ignorant newbie, you have a good point here,” but would pose no objection to the post, “Mr. Stolyarov, your arguments here are thoroughly flawed; allow me to demonstrate why.”) I withdraw sanction based on one criterion alone, incivility, and Citizen Rat’s level of tactfulness in this forum has been exemplary, judging by my observation of numerous discussions with him as participant.  

 

I think Citizen Rat’s current Atlas Count better reflects the value of his intellectual contributions both in past discussions and the efforts he had expended to partake in this one. I also understand that I am posting this comment at the ironic risk of receiving a non-sanction vote myself, as I have noted tendencies on the part of certain individuals to put an “X” on any comment that does not entirely mirror their worldview on every possible subject or that departs from the fenomenon of “Party-Line Objectivism.”

 

I will welcome both public comments and private SOLO mail concerning this issue, from all pertinent individuals.

 

I am

G. Stolyarov II


Post 63

Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:30pmSanction this postReply
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Are we free agents? Can we be morally responsible for what we do? Philosophers distinguish these questions and have all the answers. Some say YES and YES (we are fully free, and wholly morally responsible for what we do). Others say YES and NO (certainly we are free agents - but we cannot be ultimately responsible for what we do). A third group says NO and NO (we are not free agents at all; a fortiori we cannot be morally responsible). A strange minority says NO and YES (we can be morally responsible for what we do even though we are not free agents). This view is rare, but it has a kind of existentialist panache, and appears to be embraced by Wintergreen in Joseph Heller’s novel Closing Time (1994), as well as by some Protestants.

Who is right? Suppose that tomorrow is a holiday, and that you are wondering what to do. You can climb a mountain or read Lao Tzu. You can restring your mandolin or go to the zoo. At the moment you are reading about free will. You are free to go on reading or stop now. You have started on this sentence, but you don’t have to.......finish it. Right now, as so often in life, you have a number of options. Nothing forces your hand. Surely you are entirely free to choose what to do, and responsible for what you do?

This is what the Compatibilists think. They say YES and YES, and are very influential in the present day. Their name derives from their claim that free will is entirely compatible with determinism - the view that everything that happens in the universe is necessitated by what has already gone before, in such a way that nothing can happen otherwise than it does. Free will, they think, is just a matter of not being constrained or compelled in certain ways that have nothing to do with whether determinism is true or false. "Consider yourself at this moment", they say. "No one is holding a gun to your head. You are not being threatened or manhandled. You are not (surely) drugged, or in chains, or subject to a psychological compulsion like kleptomania, or a post-hypnotic command. So you are wholly free. This is what being a free agent is. It’s wholly irrelevant that your character is determined, if indeed it is."

"And although things like guns and chains, threats to the life of your children, psychological obsessions, and so on, are standardly counted as constraints that can limit freedom and responsibility, there is another and more fundamental sense in which you are fully free in any situation in which you can choose or act in any way at all - in any situation in which you are not panicked, or literally compelled to do what you do, in such a way that it is not clear that you can still be said to choose or act at all (as when you press a button because your finger is forced down onto it). Consider pilots of hijacked aeroplanes. They usually stay calm. They choose to comply with the hijackers’ demands. They act responsibly, as we naturally say. They are able to do other than they do, but they choose not to. They do what they most want to do, all things considered, in the circumstances in which they find themselves; and all circumstances limit one’s options in some way. Some circumstances limit one’s options much more drastically than others, but it doesn’t follow that one isn’t free to choose in those circumstances. Only literal compulsion, panic, or uncontrollable impulse really removes one’s freedom to choose, and to (try to) do what one most wants to do given one’s character or personality. Even when one’s finger is being forced down on the button, one can still act freely in resisting the pressure or cursing one’s oppressor, and in many other ways."

So most of us are wholly free to choose and act throughout our waking lives, according to the Compatibilists. We are free to choose between the options we perceive to be open to us. (Sometimes we would rather not face options, but are unable to avoid awareness of the fact that we do face them.) One has options even when one is in chains, or falling through space. Even if one is completely paralysed, one is still free in so far as one is free to choose to think about one thing rather than another. There is, as Sartre observed, a sense in which we are condemned to freedom, not free not to be free.

One may well not be able to do everything one wants - one may want to fly unassisted, vapourize every gun in the United States by an act of thought, or house all those who sleep on the streets of Calcutta by the end of the month - but few have supposed that free will is a matter of being able to do everything one wants. It is, doubtless, a possible view. But according to the Compatibilists, free will is simply a matter of being unconstrained in such a way that one has genuine options and opportunities for action, and is able to choose between them according to what one wants or thinks best. It doesn’t matter if one’s character, personality, preferences, and general motivational set are entirely determined by things for which one is in no way responsible - by one’s genetic inheritance, upbringing, historical situation, chance encounters, and so on.

Even dogs count as free agents, on this view. So Compatibilists have to explain what distinguishes us from dogs - since we don’t think that dogs are free in the way we are. Many of them say that it is our capacity for explicitly self-conscious thought. Not because self-consciousness liberates anyone from determinism: if determinism is true, one is determined to have whatever self-conscious thoughts one has, whatever their complexity. The idea is that self-consciousness makes it possible for one to be explicitly aware of oneself as facing choices and engaging in processes of reasoning about what to do, and thereby constitutes one as a radically free agent in a way unavailable to any unself-conscious agent. One's self-conscious deliberative presence in the situation of choice simply trumps the fact - if it is a fact - that one is, in the final analysis, wholly constituted as the sort of person one is by factors for which one is not in any way ultimately responsible.

Some Compatibilists add that human beings are sharply marked off from dogs by their capacity to act for reasons that they explicitly take to be moral reasons. Compatibilism has many variants. According to Harry Frankfurt’s version, for example, one has free will if one wants to be moved to action by the motives that do in fact move one to action. On this view, freedom is just a matter of having a personality that is harmonious in a certain way.

The compatibilists, then, say YES and YES, and those who want to say YES and YES are well advised to follow them, for determinism is unfalsifiable, and may be true. (In the end, contemporary physics gives us no more reason to suppose that determinism is false than to suppose that it is true.) Many, however, think that the Compatibilist account of things does not even touch the real problem of free will. For what is it, they say, to define freedom in such a way that it is compatible with determinism? It is to define it in such a way that an agent can be a free agent even if all its actions throughout its life are determined to happen as they do by events that have taken place before it is born: so that there is a clear sense in which it could not at any point in its life have done otherwise than it did. This, they say, is certainly not free will or moral responsibility. How can one be truly or ultimately morally responsible for what one does if everything one does is ultimately a deterministic outcome of events for whose occurrence one is in no way responsible?



These are the Incompatibilists, and they divide into two groups: the Libertarians, on the one hand, and the No-Freedom theorists or Pessimists, on the other. The Libertarians are up-beat. They say YES and YES, and think the Compatibilists’ account of freedom can be improved on. They hold (1) that we do have free will, (2) that free will is not compatible with determinism, and (3) that determinism is therefore false. But they face an extremely difficult task: they have to show how indeterminism (the falsity of determinism) can help with free will, and in particular with moral responsibility.

The Pessimists do not think this can be shown. They agree that free will is not compatible with determinism, but deny that indeterminism can help. They think that free will, of the sort that is necessary for genuine moral responsibility, is provably impossible. They say NO and NO.

They begin by granting what everyone must. They grant that there is a clear, important, compatibilist sense in which we can be free agents (we can be free, when unconstrained, to choose and to do what we want or think best, given how we are). But they insist that this isn’t enough: it doesn’t give us what we want, in the way of free will. Nor does it give us what we believe we have. But (they continue) it is not as if the Compatibilists have missed something. The truth is that nothing can give us what we think we want, and ordinarily think we have. We cannot be morally responsible, in the absolute, buck-stopping way in which we often unreflectively think we are. We cannot have "strong" free will of the kind that we would need to have, in order to be morally responsible in this way.


One way of setting out the Pessimists’ argument is as follows:

(1) When you act, you do what you do, in the situation in which you find yourself, because of the way you are.

But then

(2) To be truly or ultimately morally responsible for what you do, you must be truly or ultimately responsible for the way you are, at least in certain crucial mental respects. (Obviously you don’t have to be responsible for your height, age, sex, and so on.)

But

(3) You can’t be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all, so you can’t be ultimately responsible for what you do.

For

(4) To be ultimately responsible for the way you are, you must have somehow intentionally brought it about that you are the way you are.

And the problem is then this. Suppose

(5) You have somehow intentionally brought it about that you are the way you now are, in certain mental respects: suppose you have brought it about that you have a certain mental nature Z, in such a way that you can be said to be ultimately responsible for Z.

For this to be true

(6) You must already have had a certain mental nature Y, in the light of which you brought it about that you now have Z. If you didn’t already have a mental nature then you didn’t have any intentions or preferences, and can’t be responsible for the way you now are, even if you have changed.)

But then

(7) For it to be true that you are ultimately responsible for how you now are, you must be ultimately responsible for having had that nature, Y, in the light of which you brought it about that you now have Z.

So

(8) You must have brought it about that you had Y.

But then

(9) you must have existed already with a prior nature, X, in the light of which you brought it about that you had Y, in the light of which you brought it about that you now have Z.


And so on. Here one is setting off on a potentially infinite regress. In order for one to be truly or ultimately responsible for how one is in such a way that one can be truly responsible for what one does, something impossible has to be true: there has to be, and cannot be, a starting point in the series of acts of bringing it about that one has a certain nature; a starting point that constitutes an act of ultimate self-origination.

There is a more concise way of putting the point: in order to be ultimately responsible, one would have to be causa sui - the ultimate cause or origin of oneself, or at least of some crucial part of one’s mental nature. But nothing can be ultimately causa sui in any respect at all. Even if the property of being causa sui is allowed to belong unintelligibly to God, it cannot plausibly be supposed to be possessed by ordinary finite human beings. "The causa sui is the best self-contradiction that has been conceived so far", as Nietzsche remarked in 1886:

"it is a sort of rape and perversion of logic. But the extravagant pride of man has managed to entangle itself profoundly and frightfully with just this nonsense. The desire for "freedom of the will" in the superlative metaphysical sense, which still holds sway, unfortunately, in the minds of the half-educated; the desire to bear the entire and ultimate responsibility for one’s actions oneself, and to absolve God, the world, ancestors, chance, and society involves nothing less than to be precisely this causa sui and, with more than Baron Munchhausen’s audacity, to pull oneself up into existence by the hair, out of the swamps of nothingness. . . ."

In fact, nearly all of those who believe in strong free will do so without any conscious thought that it requires ultimate self-origination. But self origination is the only thing that could actually ground the kind of strong free will that is regularly believed in.

The Pessimists’ argument may seem contrived, but essentially the same argument can be given in a more natural form as follows. (A) One is the way one is, initially, as a result of heredity and early experience. (B) These are clearly things for which one cannot be held to be in any way responsible (this might not be true if there were reincarnation, but this would just shift the problem backwards). (C) One cannot at any later stage of one’s life hope to accede to ultimate responsibility for the way one is by trying to change the way one already is as a result of heredity and experience. For one may well try to change oneself, but (D) both the particular way in which one is moved to try to change oneself, and the degree of one’s success in one’s attempt at change, will be determined by how one already is as a result of heredity and experience. And (E) any further changes that one can bring about only after one has brought about certain initial changes will in turn be determined, via the initial changes, by heredity and previous experience. (F) This may not be the whole story, for it may be that some changes in the way one is are traceable to the influence of indeterministic or random factors. But (G) it is absurd to suppose that indeterministic or random factors, for which one is ex hypothesi in no way responsible, can in themselves contribute to one’s being truly or ultimately responsible for how one is.



The claim, then, is not that people cannot change the way they are. They can, in certain respects (which tend to be exaggerated by North Americans and underestimated, perhaps, by members of other cultures). The claim is only that people cannot be supposed to change themselves in such a way as to be or become ultimately responsible for the way they are, and hence for their actions. One can put the point by saying that in the final analysis the way you are is, in every last detail, a matter of luck - good or bad.

Philosophers will ask what exactly this "ultimate" responsibility is supposed to be. They will suggest that it doesn't really make sense, and try to move from there to the claim that it can't really be what we have in mind when we talk about moral responsibility. It is very clear to most people, however, and one dramatic way to characterize it is by reference to the story of heaven and hell: it is responsibility of such a kind that, if we have it, it makes sense to propose that it could be just to punish some of us with torment in hell and reward others with bliss in heaven. It makes sense because what we do is absolutely up to us. The words "makes sense" are stressed because one doesn’t have to believe in the story of heaven and hell in order to understand the notion of ultimate responsibility that it is used to illustrate. Nor does one have to believe in it in order to believe in ultimate responsibility (many atheists have done so).

The story is useful because it illustrates the kind of absolute or ultimate responsibility that many have supposed - and do suppose - themselves to have. (Another way to characterize it is to say that it exists if punishment and reward can be fair without having any pragmatic - or indeed aesthetic - justification.) But one doesn’t have to appeal to it when describing the sorts of everyday situation that are primarily influential in giving rise to our belief in ultimate responsibility. Suppose you set off for a shop on the evening of a national holiday, intending to buy a cake with your last ten pound note. Everything is closing down. There is one cake left; it costs ten pounds. On the steps of the shop someone is shaking an Oxfam tin. You stop, and it seems completely clear to you that it is entirely up to you what you do next: you are truly, radically free to choose, in such a way that you will be ultimately responsible for whatever you do choose. You can put the money in the tin, or go in and buy the cake, or just walk away. You are not only completely free to choose. You are not free not to choose.

Standing there, you may believe determinism is true: you may believe that in five minutes time you will be able to look back on the situation you are now in and say, of what you will by then have done, "It was determined that I should do that". But even if you do wholeheartedly believe this, it does not seem to touch your current sense of the absoluteness of your freedom and moral responsibility.

One diagnosis of this phenomenon is that one can’t really believe that determinism is true, in such situations, and also can’t help thinking that its falsity might make freedom possible. But the feeling of ultimate responsibility seems to remain inescapable even if this is not so. Suppose one fully accepts the Pessimists’ argument that no one can be causa sui, and that one has to be causa sui (in certain crucial mental respects) in order to be ultimately responsible for one’s actions. This does not seem to have any impact on one’s sense of one’s radical freedom and responsibility, as one stands there, wondering what to do. One’s radical responsibility seems to stem simply from the fact that one is fully conscious of one’s situation, and knows that one can choose, and believes that one action is morally better than the other. This seems to be immediately enough to confer full and ultimate responsibility. And yet it cannot really do so, according to the Pessimists. For whatever one actually does, one will do what one does because of the way one is, and the way one is is something for which one neither is nor can be responsible, however self-consciously aware of one’s situation one is.

The Pessimists' argument is hard to stomach (even Hitler is let off the hook), and one challenge to it runs as follows. "Look, the reason why one can be ultimately responsible for what one does is that one’s self is, in some crucial sense, independent of one’s general mental nature (character or motivational structure). Suppose one faces a difficult choice between A, doing one’s moral duty, and B, following one’s desires. You Pessimists describe this situation as follows: Given one’s mental nature, you say, one responds in a certain way. One is swayed by reasons for and against both A and B. One tends towards A or B, and in the end one does one or the other, given one’s mental nature, which is something for which one cannot be ultimately responsible. But this description of yours forgets the self - it forgets what one might call 'the agent-self'. As an agent-self, one is in some way independent of one’s mental nature. One’s mental nature inclines one to do one thing rather than another, but it does not thereby necessitate one to do one thing rather than the other (to use Leibniz’s terms). As an agent-self, one incorporates a power of free decision that is independent of all the particularities of one’s mental nature in such a way that one can after all count as ultimately morally responsible in one’s decisions and actions even though one is not ultimately responsible for any aspect of one’s mental nature."

The Pessimists are unimpressed: "Even if one grants the validity of this conception of the agent-self for the sake of argument", they say, "it cannot help. For if the agent-self decides in the light of the agent’s mental nature but is not determined by the agent’s mental nature, the following question immediately arises: Why does the dear old agent-self decide as it does? The general answer is clear. Whatever it decides, it decides as it does because of the overall way it is, and this necessary truth returns us to where we started: somehow, the agent-self is going to have to get to be responsible for being the way it is, in order for its decisions to be a source of ultimate responsibility. But this is impossible: nothing can be causa sui in the required way. Whatever the nature of the agent-self, it is ultimately a matter of luck. Maybe the agent-self decides as it does partly or wholly because of the presence of indeterministic occurrences in the decision process. Maybe, maybe not. It makes no difference, for indeterministic occurrences can never contribute to ultimate moral responsibility."



Some think they can avoid this debate by asserting that free will and moral responsibility are just a matter of being governed by reason - or by Reason with a dignifying capital "R". But being governed by Reason can’t be the source of ultimate responsibility. It can’t be a property that makes punishment ultimately just or fair for those who possess it, and unfair for those who don’t. For to be morally responsible, on this view, is simply to possess one sort of motivational set among others. But if you do possess this motivational set then you are simply lucky - if it is indeed a good thing - while those who lack it are unlucky.

This will be denied. It will be said, truly, that some people struggle to become more morally responsible, and make an enormous effort. Their moral responsibility is then not a matter of luck: it is their own hard won achievement. The Pessimists’ reply is immediate. "Suppose you are someone who struggles to be morally responsible, and make an enormous effort. Well, that too is a matter of luck. You are lucky to be someone who has a character of a sort that disposes you to make that sort of effort. Someone who lacks a character of that sort is merely unlucky."

In the end, luck swallows everything: This is one (admittedly contentious) way of putting the point that there can be no ultimate responsibility, given the natural, strong conception of responsibility that was characterized by reference to the story of heaven and hell. Relative to that conception, no punishment or reward is ever ultimately just or fair, however natural or useful or otherwise humanly appropriate it may be or seem.

The free will problem is like a carousel. One starts with the Compatibilist position . . . But it cannot satisfy our intuitions about moral responsibility . . . So it seems that an Incompatibilist and indeed Libertarian account of free will is needed, according to which free will requires the falsity of determinism . . . But any such account immediately triggers the Pessimists’ objection that indeterministic occurrences cannot possibly contribute to moral responsibility . . . For one can hardly be supposed to be more truly morally responsible for one’s choices and actions or character if indeterministic or random occurrences have played a part in their causation than if they have not played such a part . . . But what this shows is that the Incompatibilists’ "ultimate" moral responsibility is obviously impossible . . . But that means that we should return to Compatibilism, since it is the best we can do . . . But Compatibilism cannot possibly satisfy our intuitions about moral responsibility . . . .

What should we do? Get off the metaphysical merry-go-round, and take up psychology. The principal positions in the traditional debate are clear. No radically new options are likely to emerge after millennia of debate, and the interesting questions that remain are primarily psychological: Why exactly do we believe we have ultimate responsibility of the kind that can be characterized by reference to the story of heaven and hell? What is it like to live with this belief? What are its varieties? How might we be changed by dwelling intensely on the view that ultimate responsibility is impossible?

One reason for the belief has already been given: it has to do with the way we experience choice, as self-conscious agents confronting the Oxfam box and the cake. And this raises the interesting question whether all self-conscious agents who face choices and are fully self-consciously aware of the fact that they do so must experience themselves as having strong free will, or as being radically self-determining? We human beings cannot experience our choices as determined, even if determinism is true, but perhaps this is a human peculiarity, not an inescapable feature of any possible self-conscious agent. And perhaps it is not even universal among human beings: Krishnamurti claims that "a truly intelligent [spiritually advanced] mind simply cannot have choice" because it "can . . . only choose the path of truth . . . . Only the unintelligent mind has free will," and a related thought is expressed by Saul Bellow in Humboldt’s Gift: "In the next realm, where things are clearer, clarity eats into freedom. We are free on earth because of cloudiness, because of error, because of marvellous limitation." Spinoza extends the point to God, who cannot, he says, "be said . . . to act from freedom of the will".

Other causes of our belief in strong free will have been suggested, apart from the cake and the Oxfam box. Hume stresses our experience of indecision. Kant holds that our experience of moral obligation makes belief in strong free will inevitable. P. F. Strawson argues that our belief in freedom is grounded in certain fundamental natural reactions to other people - such as gratitude and resentment - that we cannot hope to give up. Those who think hard about free will are likely to conclude that the complex moral psychology of the experience of freedom is the most fruitful area of research. New generations, however, will continue to launch themselves onto the old carousel, and the debate is likely to continue for as long as human beings can think, as the Pessimists’ argument that we can’t possibly have strong free will keeps bumping into the fact that we can’t help believing that we do.

The facts are clear, and they have been known for a long time. When it comes to the metaphysics of free will, Andre Gide’s remark is apt: "Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again." It seems the only freedom that we can have is Compatibilist freedom. If - since - that is not enough for ultimate responsibility, we cannot have ultimate responsibility.

The debate continues, and some have thought that philosophy ought to move on. There is little reason to expect that it will, as new minds are seduced by the problem. And yet the facts are clear. One cannot be ultimately responsible for one's character or mental nature in any way at all. Heracleitus, Novalis, George Eliot, Nietzsche, Henry James and others are not quite right in so far as they say (in their various ways) that character is destiny; for external circumstances are also part of destiny. But the point seems good, and final, when it comes to the question of ultimate moral responsibility.

Post 64

Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 4:55amSanction this postReply
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Volition is an axiom -- it is implicit in any claim to knowledge. If the content of your mind is determined, then you have no way of knowing how that content got there or whether it is valid. Thus, the claim to know that man is determined is self-contradictory.

For example, how did the conclusion that determinism is valid enter your mind? Did you follow a process of reason governed by logic -- or did you commit every logical flaw in the book? You cannot claim that you monitored you mental processes and therefor know them to be valid, because deterministic forces may have given you false observations.

Either you have control over your mind or you do not. If you do not, then you cannot make any statement about the validity of your mind's content, i.e., you cannot claim knowledge.

The demand that we must prove the existence of free will is a demand to prove a negative. It is a demand that one prove that there are no external forces determining the content of your mind. I assume everyone in this forum understands why a negative cannot be proved -- and why the inability to prove a negative cannot be cited as evidence of a positive.

There are those that will continue to evade the axiomatic nature of volition. However, the burden is on them to prove the existence and causal nature of said deterministic forces.

Citizen Rat's argument for god amounts to pointing at something (volition is the fashion of today) and saying, "Explain this to my satisfaction or I will assert that god exists!"  The determinist's argument is of the same form. They point at volition and say, "Prove that this is fully free or I will invoke determinism!".

Both arguments are arbitrary assertions and both are false.


Post 65

Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 5:12amSanction this postReply
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I was rather dismayed to have become aware of certain nonsanction votes against some of his even innocent posts (such as those communicating personal experiences or motives, like his post to Mr. Bisno
I don't know how you can see if a post has a non-sanction vote, and I've never given one, but just wanted to disagree once on this (so as not to go off track).

I wouldn't expect a sanction vote just because I was civil and maybe a post was "well-written". For the same reason, I wouldn't give a non-sanction vote, just because someone seemed uncivil, or I didn't like the way they said something. I'd sanction/non-sanction based on content and whether or not I agree with it. I am concerned more about ideas and arguments, than how civil someone is (though that is definitely a nice addition, as I likely would ignore a person being an ass, no matter what they're saying.

I know there were at least a couple of posts where Bill explained religious viewpoints, and made arguments that most people here would not be swayed by in the least. So I would not be surprised by non-sanction votes!

-E 


Post 66

Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 5:51amSanction this postReply
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Dave: “Yet you then claim "God" to be omniscient, or he is aware of things that have not yet occurred. To be aware of "something" is to be aware of something that exists…My intent with this post is to persuade you reconcile your claim of an "omniscient" god with your belief in volition, as they appear to me to be contradictory.”

This is always a sticking point with theism, and rightly so, since the two claims can’t be easily reconciled. I’m no theist, but like some other posters I also have a background in Catholicism. As I understand it, a Catholic would say that God exists outside of space and time, therefore his omniscience includes knowledge of what to temporal creatures such as human beings is the past, present and future.

For temporal creatures the future is yet to be, and their future is in their own hands. But for a being outside of space/time all existence is -- for want of a better phrase -- the eternal now. Such a being can therefore know “the future” without violating the free will of temporal creatures.

Whether or not you find this argument persuasive will depend to a large degree on your belief system. It’s certainly not a scientific issue, since science only deals with events within space/time.

Brendan.


Post 67

Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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Saying volition is an axiom does not make it so. Besides, volition is not being questioned here, what is questioned is whether one's volition is "free", or, whether it is constrained, by antecedent causes, or, random events on the micro-level, over which, one has no control. As my post made clear, "free will" is a self-contradictory, irrational, and mystical notion that cannot possibly be meaningful. But why volition is necessarily related to knowing the content of one's mind is not explained by you, nor can it be, since it is a nonsensical claim. My argument remains valid regardless of whether I know it or not: it is significant that you do not critique the argument itself, because, evidently you cannot. Just try to define what "free will" could possibly mean and I will watch you fall into quicksand -- you can't even explain what it could mean, what, that is, "free will" refers to in the objective world. What capacity is it? The capacity to defy the laws of physics? Are you a dualist, then, positing a contracausal, spiritual realm that resists materialist forces. I should think not. Where does this mystical capacity originate? and when? How do humans acquire the necessary escape velocity to transcend material causation? Determinism does not need to be proved: the universe might well be tychistic. A correct description of the nature of the universe is not necessary to disprove "free will"; as my argument makes clear, free will is itself a contradictory self-negating notion. You'll have to come up with something better than your silly objections.

Post 68

Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan

Thanks for the response. You said:

"As I understand it, a Catholic would say that God exists outside of space and time"

That is what I expect to hear in the definition of "God", and I am still hopeful Bill will take the time to lay out his thoughts as well. The phrase "exists outside space and time" is self-contradicting and therefore false. Existence implies a "something" in REALITY (experience). Even nonphysical existents such as mental entities lie within the realm of space and time. To claim existence outside space/time (aka reality) is a conceptual impossibility. It would be an arbitrary use of language (meaningless, no definition) or as AR called it in ITOE an "anti-concept".

I am trying to learn theistic argumentation so I may be better equipped to present my own philosophy to those around me. Any objectivists who can offer insight as to the form of my rebuttal would be appreciated (Dr. Diabolical Dialectical?).

Thanks
Dave

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Post 69

Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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Jack, Michael,

You are absolutely right, "free will" is a self-contradictory, irrational, and mystical notion that cannot possibly be meaningful.
 
A lot of Objectivists get caught in that sophist's trap. It is not "free will," the Objectivist defends, but volition.

Volition means that faculty which makes it both possible and necessary for human beings to consciously choose all their actions, both their overt behavior and their internal thoughts.

I use the following illustration from, The Autonomist, Philosophy, What is It:


_________________________________________________________

It is the rational-volitional nature of man that requires everything we do as human beings to be done by conscious choice. Even to do nothing requires a choice.


Before we go any further, let's get something out of the way. As soon as you mention choice, someone will bring up the question of, "free will." Don't ever get caught in that trap. The meaning of that expression is hopelessly muddled and has nothing to do with this matter of choice.
 
"Do you really believe people have free will?" you will be asked. "You can't do just anything you want," it will be argued. "People's behavior is determined by many things, their heredity, their subconscious, their environment, their education, their economic status....blah, blah, blah."
 
All of that has nothing to do with the fact that to do anything, you must choose to do it. You do not have to study psychology and philosophy for a million years to know this is true. You can test it for yourself, once and for all, and never have to worry about this question again.
 
Sit down in a chair somewhere. (You'll have to choose to do it.) Now make one more choice. Choose not to choose anything else. Just sit there and let your heredity, or your subconscious, or environmental influences, or your education, or your money determine your actions.
 
What happens when you do that? Nothing!
 
If you never choose anything again, you will never do anything again; but notice, even to not choose you must choose.
 
The ability to choose, which we call volition, is not about what can be chosen, or how one chooses, or why one chooses, but the fact that a human being not only can choose, but must choose, and that this necessity of choice cannot be avoided or bypassed so long as one is fully conscious.
_________________________________________________________

All of Jack's long argument can be reduced to this, "when some one chooses, why do they choose as they do? If, like Jack, you really do not believe in human volitional, you will believe there is an answer to the question, "why do they choose as they do?" But, whatever the answer to that question is, that thing becomes the determiner of choice, and choice is mere illusion.

If you are an Objectivist, you know in one sense, there is no answer to the question, "why do they choose as they do?", but that in another sense there is an answer, but the only way to know the answer is to ask the chooser, "why did you choose as you did?" Only the chooser knows why, because the chooser determines the choice. That is volition.

Regi 





Post 70

Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 9:40pmSanction this postReply
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Dave: The phrase "exists outside space and time" is self-contradicting and therefore false. Existence implies a "something" in REALITY…”

When arguing with any opposing view, it’s only fair to deal with meanings offered by one’s opponent. I’m not sure how Bill would respond, but a theist might simply argue that his understanding of existence and reality includes the notion of a supreme being.

I don’t know ether Bill has presented any arguments for the existence of God on this thread, but they can be found in standard textbooks. The main ones are: the ontological argument, the cosmological, the teleological, and arguments from morality and religious experience. They can all be effectively challenged, but only by argument. There’s no empirical evidence that can decide the question one way or another.

Brendan


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Post 71

Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
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Jack, you wrote:
Saying volition is an axiom does not make it so.
Well of course not, which is why my post did not end with one sentence.

Besides, volition is not being questioned here, what is questioned is whether one's volition is "free", or, whether it is constrained, by antecedent causes, or, random events on the micro-level, over which, one has no control. As my post made clear, "free will" is a self-contradictory, irrational, and mystical notion that cannot possibly be meaningful. ......Just try to define what "free will" could possibly mean and I will watch you fall into quicksand -- you can't even explain what it could mean, what, that is, "free will" refers to in the objective world. What capacity is it? The capacity to defy the laws of physics? Are you a dualist, then, positing a contracausal, spiritual realm that resists materialist forces.
Non-free volition is a contradiction in terms.

I am using the terms free will and volition as synonyms. "Free" will does not mean omniscient will, or omnipotent will or will that violates the laws of physics. It means I possess the power to focus my mind and think -- or not do so -- totally under my control. Or to use Reginald's definition:
Volition means that faculty which makes it both possible and necessary for human beings to consciously choose all their actions, both their overt behavior and their internal thoughts.
There, the term has been defined and no one has sunk into any quicksand.

(If the term free will has, as Reginald says, become hopelessly muddled, then the question is whether it is worth fighting for its use as Rand fought for the proper use of the term "selfishness". Subject for another thread.)

Where does this mystical capacity originate? and when? How do humans acquire the necessary escape velocity to transcend material causation? Determinism does not need to be proved: the universe might well be tychistic. A correct description of the nature of the universe is not necessary to disprove "free will"; as my argument makes clear, free will is itself a contradictory self-negating notion. You'll have to come up with something better than your silly objections.
Volition is an attribute of man's consciousness -- and as such it arises from the same thing as consciousness -- the mind of man. And I have demonstrated why volition is axiomatic in nature.

The only error I can see in my post was this statement: "I assume everyone in this forum understands why a negative cannot be proved -- and why the inability to prove a negative cannot be cited as evidence of a positive." You have certainly refuted me on that point.

Your long post concludes:
And yet the facts are clear. One cannot be ultimately responsible for one's character or mental nature in any way at all.

Did you arrive at the above conclusion of your own free will -- or, failing to reach escape velocity, did your brain atoms succumb to cosmic, quantum mechanics that forced you to express this opinion?







 


Post 72

Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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Just wanted to agree with Michael on this one. Regarding Jack and Regi's posts, I don't know if they think that "free-will" means you can will anything that you want (including defying physics as Jack says). That's not what it means, it means that you have the opportunity to make choices. Volition is the act of using your mind to think and make choices.  

-E


Post 73

Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 5:40pmSanction this postReply
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thought experiment:
suppose that somone creates milllions upon millions of isolated exact duplicates of you and your environment at this exact moment. this precise second of your life and your surroundings is recreated exactly, subatomic particle for subatomic particle, atom for atom, neuron for neuron, so that, in some lab somewhere, the very act of you reading this post is replicated 10 million times, by 10 million replica yous, in 10 million replica environments. will any of these replicas act any different from how you act upon reading this post? can any of these replicas act at all different from you upon reading this post? if you answer no to both of these questions, does is make any sense whatsoever to talk about free will? if you answer yes to any of these questions, what is it that permits identical conditions to produce different results?

Post 74

Monday, April 19, 2004 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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thought experiment:
suppose that somone creates milllions upon millions of isolated exact duplicates of you and your environment at this exact moment. this precise second of your life and your surroundings is recreated exactly, subatomic particle for subatomic particle, atom for atom, neuron for neuron, so that, in some lab somewhere, the very act of you reading this post is replicated 10 million times, by 10 million replica yous, in 10 million replica environments.

will any of these replicas act any different from how you act upon reading this post?


That is up to them.


can any of these replicas act at all different from you upon reading this post?
Yes.

if you

Post 75

Monday, April 19, 2004 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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Post 76

Monday, April 19, 2004 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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Post 77

Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 2:01amSanction this postReply
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Citizen Rat,

Your confused about my last post, but that's because you're trying to lump ideas together.  Let me clarify again.

1.)  Your first problem is that you take whatever you can't find a rational explanation for, and presume that it's impossible to have a rational (non-god) explanation.  This is where your arrogance is caused by ignorance.  You say that since you don't know the answer, there must not be one!  This is the height of arrogance from ignorance.  Your own mental shortcomings is given as proof of the impossibility of the problem.

2.)  The second problem is that after declaring your ignorance proves no possible rational answer, you then suggest that the solution is some magical god.  It's been pointed out by Elizabeth that even if the first part were true (that there is no natural, rational explanation), there is no reason at all to justify that particular leap of faith.  It's as easy to accept that a magical donkey who lives on the far side of the moon is the cause of any particular result.  So again, your "faith" is not justified in the slightest.  It's pure subjectivist whim-worshipping.  You want to believe in god, and you jump at any chance.

Notice that there are two major problems with your thinking?  One is the quickness to reject the possibility of a rational, non-magical explanation.  The other is the quickness to then answer your own created problem with whatever magical beings you want.

And once again I'll state that "magic" is not an answer.  It doesn't explain anything at all.  And by pretending it does answer something,  you're just condemning yourself to ignorance.  Because that's all that magic is.  It's the assertion that the something happens without explanation.  That you embody this magic in the form of a intelligent being helps you pretend that it is an explanation, but it doesn't change the nature of it.  It doesn't explain anything.  It just destroy's your minds ability to recognize that you don't know something, or that an answer is possible.  Belief in god is a destroyer of minds.

If you're looking for whether or not Objectivism is compatible with a belief in god, the answer is unequivocally "NO!".  Objectivist epistemology is necessarily opposed to faith.  Faith is not knowledge, but a substitution of whim for facts.  It's just another form of subjectivism, claiming that whatever you want to be true, you can just pretend that it is.  Faith is anti-reason, and the extent that you accept it is the extent to which you invalidate your ability to reason.


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Post 78

Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 5:17amSanction this postReply
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Since my previous post on the thought experiment was truncated, I will post it once again.

thought experiment:
suppose that somone creates milllions upon millions of isolated exact duplicates of you and your environment at this exact moment. this precise second of your life and your surroundings is recreated exactly, subatomic particle for subatomic particle, atom for atom, neuron for neuron, so that, in some lab somewhere, the very act of you reading this post is replicated 10 million times, by 10 million replica yous, in 10 million replica environments.

will any of these replicas act any different from how you act upon reading this post?
That is up to them.

can any of these replicas act at all different from you upon reading this post?
Yes.

if you answer yes to any of these questions, what is it that permits identical conditions to produce different results?
Volition.
Your premise is that the actions of consciousness-- the "results"-- are a "product" of "conditions" and nothing else. Which, of course, is the premise of determinism. But you have not offered any proof of that premise. Creating a thought experiment based on that premise does not prove it.


Post 79

Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 5:44amSanction this postReply
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My dear friends:

You posted a large number of comments in response to me during the past few days.  When a serious or interesting statement is made, I do try to give everyone the courtesy of an individual reply.  But it is not practical in this case.  Moreover, a consolidated reply will be more effective I believe.  I have done this is a new thread titled "The Number of the Beast".

Regards,
Bill a.k.a. Citizen Rat  


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