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Sunday, May 2, 2004 - 7:43amSanction this postReply
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Andrew In your article you wrote:

 It is appropriate that Earth Day falls in April, soon after Easter, since it allows us a seamless transition from one religious period of self-abnegation to another.

Environmentalism resembles religion in such irrational philosophical ideas as “the intrinsic value of nature” and the benevolent “Mother Nature.” Far from being the exclusive domain of “extremist” environmentalist groups, these concepts are part and parcel of mainstream environmentalist thought.


You might be interested to know it doesn't just resemble religion in its irrationality it is religion.  Its a return to primitive religion when man feared and hid from thunderstorms and believed that a spirit enhabited every tree, creature and gust of wind.

The relation between Easter (the christian holiday), "mother nature", and earth day are as follows:

Easter is an adaptation of a primitive anglo-saxton spring rite in honor of the goddess Eostre.  The incorporating of Heathen customs into early Christianity in England was carried out on the orders of Pope Gregory.(If you have ever wondered what the hell eggs and rabbits have to do with Jesus and the Cross the answer is nothing at all.  The egg and rabbit are ancient Anglo-Saxton symbols of spring embodyed in the Goddess Eostre.)  Eostre is the Anglo-Saxton "mother nature."  

No doubt that when the New Age crystle waving hippies got to pick a day to name earth day they chose april 22nd for a reason.   Their reasoning is the same reasoning of the ancient high priests of Eostre, astrology of course!  On April 22nd there is a vernal equinox. 

So there you have it folks, this is not just about saving mother earth at the cost of humanities advancements.  It isn't just resembling religion, the horror of it is much more in depth; it is about worshiping the earth on astrologicaly importaint days of the year. This is about worshiping mother earth and taking humanity back to a primitive time when we thought that human blood sacrifice was nessisary to usher in the summer months. 

If this isn't further indication of the value of the UN

"the UN Peace Bell rung every year on Earth Day at the exact moment of the vernal equinox. March 20 at 7:34 AM Eastern Standard Time"

BTW Good Article Andrew, I Loved It, but the title should be:

"From Eostre to Easter to Earth Day" or
"Three Wrongs Do Make Rite"  or
"Zealots of Eostre Return" or
"Three Left Turns Put You Back Where You Started" <~~~ my favorite


Regards,

Eric J. Tower

(Edited by Eric J. Tower on 5/02, 7:58am)

(Edited by Eric J. Tower on 5/02, 8:01am)


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Sunday, May 2, 2004 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the kind comments Eric.  I had no idea of the true depth to the comparison I had drawn between Lent/Easter and Earth Day!  (I considered them similar in that both are "holidays" where we are told to forego such pleasures as chocolate or driving automobiles, respectively.)  I still stick by the original title though.  ;)

By the way, this article was actually adapted from a column I wrote that appeared in my university's newspaper (www.kaimin.org) on April 20.  In it, I talked about a new distribution requirement being proposed at my school that would force all students to take a class in the subject of "Ecology and Human Well-Being."  (One wonders if the professors of these classes would assign priority in that order.)  Here's the full paragraph as it appeared:

"Now, in the apparent belief that college students lack understanding of environmental issues, the Task Force on General Education has proposed new distribution requirements that will force UM undergrads to take a course in the area of “Ecology and Human Well-Being.” Perhaps the professors on the task force are too old to realize this, but most of today’s college students have been exposed to (or indoctrinated with) environmentalist ideas from elementary school on up. We have about as much need to rehash them as we do basic addition and subtraction."
 
-Andrew


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Monday, May 3, 2004 - 3:50amSanction this postReply
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Now, in the apparent belief that college students lack understanding of environmental issues, the Task Force on General Education has proposed new distribution requirements that will force UM undergrads to take a course in the area of “Ecology and Human Well-Being.” Perhaps the professors on the task force are too old to realize this, but most of today’s college students have been exposed to (or indoctrinated with) environmentalist ideas from elementary school on up. We have about as much need to rehash them as we do basic addition and subtraction."

 

THATS THE TRUTH!

Not a reasonforsaken year went by in elementary school where we didn't grow grass, plant a tree or mourn the destruction of a species of Owl. 

You see they teach us that trees are importaint for some reason...

They hand out hundreds of photocopies of how earth day started and why its importaint
They show us books on ecology
They hang posters to tell everyone to recycle

Then they tell us that cutting down trees is horrible, that lumberjacks who want to cut down trees in Washington are bad men and that trees produce oxygen and well we damn well like breaking don't we!

So every year on earth day hundreds of elementary school children in NY are worked up into a frenzy of excitement about how importaint trees are to breathing.  AND then to their joyous suprise each of them recieve their own little oxygren making pine tree to plant someplace, and by June every year, hundreds of these pine trees have died in the hands of these very same children for lack of water or appropriate planting spot.  I can recall seeing on of my class mates come in crying to the first grade teacher in apology for killing the tree like the mean lumberjacks.  I mean, you would be concerned too if you thought you had just killed "your personal oxygen maker."    hell, you damn well like breathing don't you!

Regards,

Eric J. Tower.


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Monday, May 3, 2004 - 3:55amSanction this postReply
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Wow! Brilliant Article Andrew! You have framed the evil philosophy of the Greenie movement perfectly!

 

"This morality is explicitly hostile to man’s survival and prosperity; after all, every action that advances human life necessarily entails altering the natural status quo."

 

Regarding their hostility to mankind’s survival or even existence I recall a joke that was going around a few years ago. Only intended to be funny for Greenies, but it really encapsulates their ideology.

 

Joke:

 

One planet meets another planet and says to him: "What's wrong with you, you look quite ill?"

The other planet then replies: "Yes your right, I am sick. I've come down with a case of humans."


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Monday, May 3, 2004 - 3:20pmSanction this postReply
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Eric:

One memory of elementary school that has really stuck with me is the time our third grade teacher offered us bonus points for joining The Sierra Club and Save the Whales Foundation.  I bought right into the envirocrap that was getting dumped in front of us.  I still remember, in eighth grade, arguing to a friend that "we" shouldn't allow logging in a local forest because it was important (not for any reason, just because) to protect endangered owls.


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Monday, May 3, 2004 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew:

Its kind of hard not to get wrapped up in it when your a kid.  Everything is all emotions and needing to feel wanted.  Thats why its easy for teachers who have never shown us critical thinking skills to manipulate us into believeing whatever they want.  Have you ever seen the Essay by Ayn Rand called The Comprachicos, From her rather old book THE NEW LEFT: THE ANTI-INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION?  I don't know if the book or essay has seen much reprinting but basicly she talks about how the leftist teachers manipulate the minds of the children. 

I am currently attending The University of Buffalo in the town where I was, like you, almost hopelessly a zealot for the left.  Although probably unlike you my zealotry lasted until about a year and a half ago.  Since I have been kind of feeling like NEO of the Matrix walking around the place that I grew up seeing it with new eyes and noticing all of the kids and adults around here still happily plugged in to the city. 

The good news is I am not placated by the actions of these Schools teachers, I have a way to fight back.  I have a chance to hang out with 8-12 grade high school kids because I am an avid gamer (of all sorts) and I have been chatting it up with them lately at our local hang out (A gaming store I helped to start-up).  I have taken the one kid at a time approach to countering the leftists.  I think the kids are more receptive to new ideas than any person I have ever talked to about the subject, exept maybe a mathmatician I met who nearly wet himself when I told him the philosophy was based on logic...anyways: These kids (maybe 5 of them) are receptive, they like to have ammo to attack their teachers with and they are doing it.  They are not completely serious about the philosophy as we are but their interest is only growing.  In time perhaps the Nihilist Apathy will also go and they will be serious?  As always there is hope!

Sorry this was longer than I thought it would be.  (Like always for me)

Regards,

Eric J. Tower
Buffalo, NY


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Monday, May 3, 2004 - 10:41pmSanction this postReply
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Eric, good to hear you're having so much success in Buffalo.  The New Left is on my list of books to read, which is itself now approaching book length.  < : (       I'll be working for TOC in Poughkeepsie this summer, if you're ever in the area hit me up, I'll buy you a lunch or something.

What kind of games do you like?  When it comes to computer games, my collection is probably second to very few.  And I love the old Avalon Hill board games too.  It's hard to imagine a more Objectivist game than 1830!


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Monday, May 3, 2004 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
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Well I wouldn't label it sucsess yet, we will see in time how things go. 

I myself have only been studying objectivism for 9 months so I give the kiddies lots of slack before I consider them sucsess stories.

I am not much of a computer gamer anymore but when I was I liked to play:
Starcraft: (applied economics for you)
Tribes 2: (The only first person shooter that takes logistics into account.  It was designed for huge games of 100 people very complex battles)

I GM roleplaying games with objectivist philosophy in the plot lines.  SO my plot lines are a lot different than most GM's and I have earned the right to hand pick every player for the game because so many people want into my game.  I play nearly every game there is to play in RPG's except maybe Vampire the masquerade.  I never liked that game.

I have been eyeing up a historical minature battle game called "Age of Reason" its a hell of a lot cheaper than Warhammer 40K or any of those games.  Its also cool because I have a good grasp of the history and tactics of the time period (french and indian war through the war of 1812.)

I have seen the Avalon Hill stuff but never looked at it, and the guys around here would never play 1830 in their entire lives.  but i have seen the game.

I will get back to you about possibly coming down to say hey some weekend.  I have people I have been meaning to see in New England and I might be through the area this summer some weekend.  I am also looking to bring together a bunch of folks I know in the North East for a meeting in Buffalo to discuss Objectivism.  If it starts to look like its going to happen, I will let you know, perhaps you could swing up to say hi to the group if you have the time and transport.

~E.


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Friday, May 7, 2004 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
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Insightful article.

I have to admit that the majority of environmentalists are irrational and delusional. However, one premise of environmentalism - conservationalism - is not inherently a destructive thing. Conservation is, in fact, based on the rational idea of preserving our resources and environment for future generations. This does not mean that we should sacrifice our own lives for birds or tie ourselves to trees, but that everything we use now must be conserved if we wish to be successful in the future. Pure conservationalism that is untainted by fanatic radicals is a very logical philosophy. I don't believe there is anything nonsensical about preserving resources when we are completely aware that we will need them in the future. So, there is nothing wrong with an objectivist calling himself a conservationalist; the two terms are not antagonistic. Perhaps, then, Earth Day should not be used to celebrate tree-hugging, but recycling.

Raven


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Saturday, May 8, 2004 - 2:58amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the comments Raven.

True, conservationism is not always necessarily irrational and delusional, and starts with concern for man's well-being as opposed to birds and snails.  It is, however, frequently mistaken.

For instance, you wrote, "Conservation is, in fact, based on the rational idea of preserving our resources and environment for future generations. This does not mean that we should sacrifice our own lives for birds or tie ourselves to trees, but that everything we use now must be conserved if we wish to be successful in the future. Pure conservationalism that is untainted by fanatic radicals is a very logical philosophy. I don't believe there is anything nonsensical about preserving resources when we are completely aware that we will need them in the future."  Here's the rub.  Let's say we successfully set aside these resources and environment for future generations, and they inherit them.  Then, should they use, enjoy, and consume them, or set them aside for yet another future generation?  At which point would conservationism say, "We've saved up long enough, let's use some of this stuff."

Conservationism unfortunately also sometimes serves as a mere smokescreen for nature-worshipping environmentalism.  A good real-world example of this is ANWR.  Througout middle school, I was told that we had "set aside" our oil reserves in Alaska because we were going to wait until the world started to run out and then tap them to make sure we had some supply.  Then, when Pres. Bush proposed drilling ANWR, we saw the real reason for barring oil exploration there:  we have to save the caribou.

We may very well run out of various fossil fuels like oil and methane in the future (although most green doomsayers once predicted we would already have done so), but we will never run out of sources of energy, because man's mind is the source of all economic resources and the Earth is one gigantic ball of resources (i.e. chemicals, atoms, molecules), from its core to the stratosphere.  As the reserves of world oil declined and wells started to run dry, the cost of oil would rise high enough to make investment in other forms of energy more profitable (and drive down the cost of that energy).  Ditto for basically any other of the so-called "non-renewable" resources.

I have no problem with setting aside certain areas of land, as long as it is accomplished via free, laissez-faire capitalism and private property, and not the current "everyone pays, Nat'l Park patrons benefit" system.

For the most part, recycling is a wasteful boondoggle of an enterprise, which is why it almost always requires government subsidization to survive.

At any rate, welcome to the SOLO forums!


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Saturday, May 8, 2004 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
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Andrew

Great article. I concur with your take on conservationism as well. The topic is close to home for me since I live in California near the beating heart of the environmentalist death machine. I am ardently Objectivist, and, oddly enough, my physical appearance is indiscernible from any extremist tree hugging hippie (caucasian, long hair, dread locks, I'm not kidding). Consequently, my ideas shock people due to their incongruity with my embodied stereotype. Let's just say on a daily basis I engage people on the far left after they assume me to be of the same political/philosophical persuasion, and fireworks erupt.

I would love to talk more about my experience in that regard if it wouldn't detract from this thread.

Dave

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 - 7:53amSanction this postReply
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Let's say we successfully set aside these resources and environment for future generations, and they inherit them.  Then, should they use, enjoy, and consume them, or set them aside for yet another future generation?  At which point would conservationism say, "We've saved up long enough, let's use some of this stuff."

Perhaps I should've been more clear on my take on conservation. It is not that we must preserve all of our resources for future generations, just that we must preserve enough (if not more) for their use, and then they must do the same, and so on and so forth, thusly creating a cycle in which humans are more respectful of their resources. I think the entire conservation movement really needs some fine-tuning.

...but we will never run out of sources of energy, because man's mind is the source of all economic resources and the Earth is one gigantic ball of resources (i.e. chemicals, atoms, molecules), from its core to the stratosphere

I agree. One thing this brings to my mind is the use of hydrogen-powered automobiles (their only by-product is pure H2O - I must admit I was pleasantly shocked when I first heard about them). They have been in the works for years and are as effective as any gasoline-powered motor and not any more expensive, yet, they're still not on the market. Again, the government's interference can clearly be seen. Perhaps if it wasn't monopolizing the oil industry so, conservationalists and environmentalists could devote their energy to more important tasks.

Raven


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Sunday, May 9, 2004 - 2:23amSanction this postReply
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Well Dave, seeing as how this thread has already digressed into RPGs and classic boardgames, if you want to discuss your anti-Left fireworks I'm sure that should be fine.

Post 13

Sunday, May 9, 2004 - 2:51amSanction this postReply
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Raven,

Welcome aboard.  I have to question even you clarified comments on conservation.  You say you want to leave enough for future generations.  But what does that mean?  Assuming mankind lives on forever, no matter how little you decide to leave each future generation, it still adds up to infinity.  And then there's the ethics of sacrificing our lives now for the lives of people who aren't born yet.  Questionable, to say the least.

As for the wonder hydrogen fuel cars, I was under the impression that they were decades away from commercial viability, they have the nasty problem of being highly explosive, and since there's no easy way to get hydrogen, it would require massive amounts of energy to produce.  The government is involved in this, but they're funding the development of it, not squashing it's use.  I would double-check your sources on that one.

 


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Sunday, May 9, 2004 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
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As for the wonder hydrogen fuel cars, I was under the impression that they were decades away from commercial viability, they have the nasty problem of being highly explosive, and since there's no easy way to get hydrogen, it would require massive amounts of energy to produce.  The government is involved in this, but they're funding the development of it, not squashing it's use.  I would double-check your sources on that one.
Well, you got me interested enough in the proposals for me to spend a few hours researching the hydrogen economy. It is being pushed by government, but several private groups and corporations like the idea too. Both DaimlerChrysler and Honda have prototype fuel-cell cars in use, but don't plan to sell them to the public until around 2010, as several engineering issues  have to be resolved. DaimlerChrysler drover their fuel-cell car across America about 2 years ago, and had numerous minor problems, but they suceeded in driving the car the full 3200 miles. Ultimately, the market will decide, but for these reasons, hydrogen looks preferable, to those who support it, as an all-around source of energy.

1) The fuel-cell is around 50% - 60% efficient in converting energy to electricity. This gives it a notch-up on conventional methods of producing power, and allows conventional fossil fuels to be converted to hydrogen without any significant energy loss to the final product.

2) Hydrogen can be made in numerous ways, from wind, solar cells, natural gas, nuclear power, hydroelectric power, and coal and oil. This allows it to be a generic stored form of energy, like a battery, without the limitations and energy loss associated with electrical batteries.

3) If everything in society ran off of hydrogen, then alternative forms of energy could become economically viable, as the resultant intermediate product would be hydrgen, rather than electricity which suffers significant loss in transportation and storage. Wind farms could be built on open plains, generating power which would be used to create hydrogen, which could then be transported long distances to urban centers by truck, without significant energy loss. Likewise hydro-electric plants, solar plants, and nuclear plants would no longer see the significant energy loss associated with the transmission of electricity. This aspect of the hydrogen economy could start to remove society from its dependence on fossil fuels.

4) Pollution would be removed from the cities, as fuel-cells produce pure water and heat as their only by-products. Along with a shift in reliance upon fossil fuels to renewable energy, aggregate pollution could be reduced.

5) It seems that some accident studies, on vehicles carrying hydrogen which have crashed, have demonstrated a lower hazard than comparative crashes with vehicles containing gasoline. So it may not be as dangerous as popularly thought. (Though I'd still like to wait a few years before purchasing my fuel-cell car, to see the results myself, first.)

6) The oil industry is still expected to see peak production within the next 10 years, (and this target hasn't changed in the recent past). Following the production peak, oil production will fall much faster than the rise, because the world's energy requirements are increasing at an exponential rate. Another type of energy economy will eventuall be necessary, as oil production falls. The hydrogen economy seems like an ideal candidate to succeed the oil economy.

Craig


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Sunday, May 9, 2004 - 4:13pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Craig,

A few comments.

1) The fuel-cell is around 50% - 60% efficient in converting energy to electricity. This gives it a notch-up on conventional methods of producing power, and allows conventional fossil fuels to be converted to hydrogen without any significant energy loss to the final product.

Ultimately the question is what kind of notch up are you talking about?  Pollution?  It's true that hydrogen cells pollute less themselves, but you have to keep in mind that hydrogen needs to be produced, and will be produce by fossil fuels probably for at least decades.  Cost?  Hydrogen has to be produced.  A CATO report from a couple years ago said the cost of hydrogen was about $9 per gallon just for production. 

And I guess that last sentence seems to assume that a 40-50% energy loss isn't significant (i.e., half your energy is lost).  Not to mention this makes an assumption that you get as much energy from hydrogen cells as it takes to make hydrogen (or minus 40-50%).  That's a big assumption.

2) Hydrogen can be made in numerous ways, from wind, solar cells, natural gas, nuclear power, hydroelectric power, and coal and oil. This allows it to be a generic stored form of energy, like a battery, without the limitations and energy loss associated with electrical batteries.

You're not getting these points from some marketing slide are you?  Starting with wind and solar are just marketing bubbles, since very little energy is created that way, and it's just not economical.  Ending with coal and oil also seems to marginalize the truth of the matter.  Fossil fuels are still very economical.  Nuclear may be one of the better options, but due to environmentalist interference, it's difficult.
 
3) If everything in society ran off of hydrogen, then alternative forms of energy could become economically viable, as the resultant intermediate product would be hydrgen, rather than electricity which suffers significant loss in transportation and storage.

Very questionable assumptions here.  The first is that everything would run on hydrogen.  The energy loss converting to hydrogen and back is significant.  If it wasn't, the arguments for windmill here would be meaningless, since you could always make your hydrogen there and then transport it.  How does it relate to the loss over a transmission grid?  It seems likely that you'll still have central power generation in cities if the transmission loss is small.  Only in places disconnected from a cities power grid (i.e., cars or house way out far from a city) would you expect hydrogen.

The other assumption that's weird is that the windmills and solar panel are only non-economical because of their transmission overhead.

It seems more than likely that fossil fuels will continue to be the primary source of energy even if hydrogen cells became wide-spread.

4) Pollution would be removed from the cities, as fuel-cells produce pure water and heat as their only by-products. Along with a shift in reliance upon fossil fuels to renewable energy, aggregate pollution could be reduced.

This might be true, given the assumptions that power generation would happen outside of cities, but this depends on the economics.

5) It seems that some accident studies, on vehicles carrying hydrogen which have crashed, have demonstrated a lower hazard than comparative crashes with vehicles containing gasoline. So it may not be as dangerous as popularly thought.

I have no idea about that.  Seems unlikely, since the gasoline is rarely a factor in crashes.  But it also depends on the safety requirements added to these hydrogen cars.

We have to keep in mind that these are still proof-of-concept cars.  They aren't manufacturing them yet.  The same CATO report mentioned that the estimated costs of these cars was $200,000 each.  People are making huge assumptions about how much cheaper it'll get in the next decade.  But the important point is that just because you can make the cars that safe, doesn't mean it's economically viable.  We'll see.

6) The oil industry is still expected to see peak production within the next 10 years

Maybe longer.  The trend is that when the cost goes up, exploration for new sites increases.  Difficult to predict when peak production will be considering we don't have a real idea of how much oil exists.

And of course there are other problems.  Hydrogen is another type of fuel.  Production and distribution are both problems, even if the rest is economically viable.  There's a huge infrastructure supporting gas powered cars, but nothing for hydrogen.  The cost of addition/conversion could easily be in the 10's of billions.  We have these stupid electric powered cars here in CA, but there's only a handful of recharge places.  That's a big obstacle to overcome.  The Greenies will of course want the government to force people to do it.  Assuming a free-market, it probably won't happen until gasoline gets very expensive.

Don't get me wrong.  Hydrogen sounds like a good ideas (and has for over 100 years).  But there's a lot of hype around it that doesn't add up.  It may indeed be an eventual replacement for gas powered cars, but I don't think it's there by any means.  And my original point was that government isn't hindering hydrogen, they're helping it.  Even with subsidies, etc., it's still not ready.


Post 16

Sunday, May 9, 2004 - 4:47pmSanction this postReply
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Hello!

I'm reporting on the sources that I read this morning. Of course, they are questionable. I don't know anything about this field of interest yet.

Regarding Fuel Cell Efficiency: The 50 - 60% efficiency represents a more efficient transfer of energy from a fuel cell, than from a conventional internal combusion engine. From what I read, gasoline could be used to make hydrogen, which would produce about as much 'usable' energy in a fuel cell, as a the gasoline would produce originally in an internal combustion engine. This is the 'leg-up' to which I was referring. From what I understand, there is not really a loss of usable energy in this conversion.

Regarding wind energy: Our electricity was deregulated here in Texas, two years ago, and since then we've had numerous energy companies spring up which we can buy electricity from, on our local grid. One of these companies is Green Mountain Energy, (http://www.greenmountain.com/), which built a wind-farm in west Texas and is pumping this electricity to us at a price which is just a few percentage points above the oil-based alternatives. They claim that 100% of their electricity comes from their wind-farm, (and their solar farm which was built through donation, rather than investment, and is notably inefficient). They are building more wind farms and are scaling up the operation as their customer base is growing rapidly. So, unless I'm misunderstanding something, they are demonstrating viability in a remarkable fashion.

I know I should be quoting more sources, but again, this is my first lesson and I don't think I could find those sources right now. Regarding transportation costs: I read this morning that there is a break-even point on transportation. If the energy is being transported more than 800 miles, then hydrogen can move the energy less expensively than power lines.

Regarding the safety issue: Here's an interesting story: http://evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=482

The other thing I forgot to note is that fuel cells operate in a very quiet fashion. If the world used hydrogen to store energy, then many people might considering buying fuel cells for their homes, and pull themselves off the grid. Consider also, that automobiles operating on fuel cells would be using the fuel to make electricity, which would power an electric engine. Such automobiles themselves, are indeed, mobile, 20KW generating stations. It seems that people could find all sorts of uses for their automobile. It seems like it would certainly change the RV and camping world.

Finally, here is a recent fuel-cell car test. They have a ways to go before the engineering is up to snuff.

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage604.html

Craig


Post 17

Sunday, May 9, 2004 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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I want to follow up by saying that I don't know the economics of the hydrogen economy, and I suspect that few, if anyone, really does have a grip on it at this stage of development. I'm not trying to promote the idea, and I certainly don't want to get rid of my oil-powered car for something more expensive. In the next century, the world is going to need a lot more energy as third-world countries pull themselves out of poverty. I would hate to see the world throw away a cheap source of energy, (oil), for something more expensive and more difficult to use.

Craig


Post 18

Sunday, May 9, 2004 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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Interesting comments, Craig.

I still have doubts about the "leg-up".  Especially with the advent of hybrid cars, etc (which might be a more accurate comparison).  And I still don't think you can convert from one energy source to another without significant loss.  It may be that the loss is made up somewhere else, but then you have to figure out whether it is an apples to apples comparison afterall.

As for Green Mountain Energy, I saw this interesting blurb: http://www.forbes.com/2001/05/07/0507green.html

Oh, and 800 miles is a huge number!!!  That seems to imply that wind-power, etc., are not going to get a huge economic gain from hydrogen.  It's more than likely that people can find a place to set up a power plant within 800 miles of their homes!

And as for whether people will use hydrogen in their homes, it's an interesting question.  You'd have to pay for delivery of the hydrogen, have your own fuel supply container, and there's the cost of the whole thing.  On the other hand, it might free you from some of the regulations and problems that come with regular energy transmission (i.e., government interference in California!).  So it's difficult to say what would happen.  I find no reason to assume everyone will convert to hydrogen for their own homes anytime soon.  But who knows what the future will bring.


Post 19

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 3:59amSanction this postReply
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More notes:

Here's one of the links I was looking for, from our friends in Washington: (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_fuels.shtml)

"Hydrogen-rich fuels. FCVs can also be fueled with hydrogen-rich fuels, such as methanol, natural gas, petroleum distillates, or even gasoline. These fuels must be passed through onboard "reformers" that extract pure hydrogen from the fuel for use in the fuel cell. Reforming does emit some carbon dioxide (CO2), but much less than gasoline engines do.

"The fuels mentioned above contain enough hydrogen to allow FCVs to travel the same distance as a conventional vehicle on a single tank of gas; about 300 to 400 miles. Also, unlike hydrogen gas, liquid fuels like methanol and gasoline wouldn't require a completely new system for delivering fuel to consumers.

Regarding Wind Energy and Green Mountain: Just two weeks ago, they just opened a new 160 MW wind farm in West Texas to accommodate the demand. “This is a great example of the power of choice,” said Paul Thomas, CEO of Green Mountain Energy Company. “The success of the Texas market, coupled with the demand created by our loyal customers, has resulted in the development of the first Green Mountain Energy® wind farm in Texas. [The first one by Name. They were previously buying wind energy from independents. -cch]

 http://www.greenmountain.com/about/press_events/2003_07_23.jsp

"Green Mountain Energy Company customers are responsible for the development of 13 new renewable facilities (4 wind; 9 solar). Making electricity causes billions of tons of CO2 to be release every year. Last year, we estimate these facilities prevented the emission of 34,600tons of CO2. You'd have to take 6,300 cars off the road for one year to avoid that much CO2."

http://www.greenmountain.com/FAQ/index.jsp

Green Mountain isn't the only company making energy from wind in Texas now.

"TXU now operates 700 wind turbines in West Texas - the most in the southwest - that provide clean electricity to 120,000 North Texas homes. A competitor, Green Mountain Energy, also chose Earth Day this year to dedicate its new 160 wind turbines on a wind farm in Brazos, near Lubbock. "

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/localnews/news8/stories/wfaa040422_am_earthday.14f8b20fb.html

Wind generated energy is viable in Texas. What makes the 800 mile transportation limit significant, is that Wind Energy will be opened to many parts of the world which don't have wind, simply because the resultant hydrogen can be transported by truck, or pumped through a pipeline. In the US, Wind Farms can be built in the west, where wind is plentiful, and then trucked, or pumped, to the east coast and California, for about the same price that the energy could be transported 800 miles via electrical lines.

I don't know what the limit is on wind energy. It seems to require a lot of cheap land, to be economically competitive, and this probably presents significant limitations. What surprises me is that it seems to be quite viable once the energy market is deregulated. That's something that only a deregulated market could tell us.

Craig Haynie


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