RoR: Forum

Ed,

You can't mean is the world more useful, at least I don't think you can, so the question is: is the world more productive today? But the word productive is another vague construct, meaning I suppose having the quality or power of producing. I would say it would depend on what particular product you were talking about. The world is certainly more capitalistic which creates abundance if that is what you mean.

Post 61

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 9:18am

Wolf,

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The world is certainly more capitalistic which creates abundance if that is what you mean.
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Yes, that is what I mean (and doesn't that prove my point?).

Ed
[and Capitalism creates more than material abundance, it is also the seedbed for spiritual growth]

Post 62

Friday, May 5, 2006 - 11:27pm

Robert,

A few comments. You said:

Whether or not you view them as happy, does not change how they feel about themselves.

Sure. But it's not that simple either. There's a difference between some fleeting pleasure and genuine happiness. Just because an irrational person sometimes feels good doesn't matter much. It's temporary and often based on evasion. Reality continues to hammer on them, and the worse it gets, the more evasion they need to get their fixes. And of course, the more they evade, the worse things get.

Also, just because someone says they're happy doesn't prove much. Most people have incentives to either think of themselves as happy, or to try to convince others that they are. That doesn't mean we can just make assumptions. All we can do is look at all of the evidence, instead of just taking their word for it. The strongly irrational people I've met were not happy. They go through periodic and long lasting bouts of depression. They struggle through life. They're poor and envious. They fantasize about getting rich quick. If they have a job, they hate it. And on and on.

The way you talk, you sound like you envy the irrational for their easy and happy lives.

You then said

But we agree that living an irrational life is relatively easy.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say it's often easier than it should be. But they do suffer for it. Sometimes they don't even recognize the costs of it, but they're real, and they will feel the results. If they don't identify the causes of the results, they'll just be mystified why bad things always happen to them.

Post 63

Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 12:15am

Good points, Joe (very good points).

Wolf, I have seen dozens of cases of what Joe's just described -- more than a dozen of them in my immediate and first-removed (cousins, aunts, uncles, etc) family. I've had relatives that won't work -- that's right, I didn't say that they 'can't' work, I said that they 'won't.' Pretty crazy, huh? What I've learned is that -- to totally kill someone's spirit -- to take away their very drive for life, requires help. It requires some altruism.

My relatives who "won't work" still exist on this planet because others continually do FOR them, but altruism was needed -- to get their spirits so low that they won't stand on their own 2 feet anymore. The message of sacrifice is that the benefactor could not produce what they needed/desired. Think about that message. Think about someone saying to you -- as you attempt to get up -- "Oh no! Don't try to stand on your own 2 feet! Here, let me get that for you."

My relatives who "won't work" are experiencing hell on earth (they hate their lives and are full of envy -- just like Joe said). There is not enough booze in the world -- to drown THEIR sorrows; this is something I've seen, first-hand, time-after-time-after-time again.

Another example is the 1200-lb man (who can't get up anymore). In order to get so shamefully and pitifully bedridden -- he required help (someone to go to the refrigerator FOR him). Folks can't get that dead (while still breathing), without some measure of altruism in their lives.

And the reason that an anti-man morality is required (in order to be a breathing corpse), is because of the nature of man -- ie. we require specific, not arbitrary, values to flourish; and these values can only be gained by adopting and cultivating specific, not arbitrary, virtues. It's because of the kind of creature we are.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 5/06, 12:19am)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 5/06, 12:21am)

Post 64

Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 8:17am