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Post 0

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 2:31amSanction this postReply
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Interesting article.

Was Glendower then defeated? I saw the TV programme "restoration" the other day, and one of the buildings in the running was the castle where Glendower staged his rebellion from. I had the impression he might have been killed there. Am I right?

Anyway, the "restoration" programme with all it’s - giving old buildings back to the community bullshit - is quite annoying.


Post 1

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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Marcus,

Thanks for the comments. He didn't die in battle - the details are a little sketchy but I've seen nothing to suggest anything other than natural causes some years after the revolution died out. I've never watched the programme you mentioned so I'll not comment :-)

MH


Post 2

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 3:56amSanction this postReply
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"It goes without saying that Glyn Dwr, living in the 15th century and being an aristocrat, was not by any means a socialist"

Sure, but an aristocrat is by no means a capitalist, either. I'm sceptical that a Middle Ages landowner could ever be a true individualist. Maybe he defended the right to his land, but was his land justly acquired? I don't know for sure, but I imagine Glyn Dwr inherited land taken by conquest mnany years previously, and maintained his position and status by exploiting peasants. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Glyn Dwr sounds to me like just another nationalist myth, not worth resurrecting for any modern cause, socialist or not.

Phil



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Post 3

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 4:41amSanction this postReply
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MH: "It goes without saying that Glyn Dwr, living in the 15th century and being an aristocrat, was not by any means a socialist"

Phil: "Sure, but an aristocrat is by no means a capitalist, either. I'm sceptical that a Middle Ages landowner could ever be a true individualist. Maybe he defended the right to his land, but was his land justly acquired? I don't know for sure, but I imagine Glyn Dwr inherited land taken by conquest mnany years previously, and maintained his position and status by exploiting peasants. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Glyn Dwr sounds to me like just another nationalist myth, not worth resurrecting for any modern cause, socialist or not."

I'm sceptical too. I note that MH mentioned that GD was a hero of Castro. And probably of Saddam Hussein as well. Is there a pattern here?

Linz









Post 4

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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Phil and Lindsay,

The point I was trying to get at is this: The socialists of today regard him as a hero. They don't say he was a socialist, which would be just as pointless as calling him a libertarian (because modern political theory just wasn't around at that time), but they do give him a very sympathetic interpretation. However, my reading of the facts is that the primary impetus for Glyn Dwr to lead the rebellion was the blatant violation of his property rights and the failure of the state to remedy the situation. Much of the wider discontent in Wales stemmed from high taxation and inequality under the law. Socialists are in fact in favour of both violating property rights and high taxation, and in certain circumstances of inequality under the law. Precisely the things Glyn Dwr was fighting against! Precisely the things today's libertarians are fighting against!

Its a bit like the situation with Robin Hood - he's seen as a sort of "proto-socialist", robbing the rich and giving to the poor. As I believe Rand herself, or perhaps another Objectivist, pointed out, look at the facts and he was actually robbing the government and giving back to the oppressed taxpayers. So, do we abandon figures like these to the prevailing socialist "interpretations"? Or do we point out the true facts and the inconsistencies with current socialist doctrine?

Btw to answer Lindsay's other questions, as far as I know, Castro only praised Glyn Dwr's military tactics during the revolution. I've no idea if Saddam Hussein ever mentioned him. As to Phil's comment about him being an aristocratic landowner, that's like saying that Jefferson can't be a hero because he owned slaves.

MH

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 7/28, 6:23am)


Post 5

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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MH- as a fellow Welsh speaker, I thoroughly enjoyed your article on one of our greatest heroes. It rather empowers me to brush up a bit on Welsh history- however I feel that it is my duty to point out that our hero is called "Owain Glyndwr" and not "Owain Glyn Dwr". I trust that you will edit all inaccuracies in the text, seeing as how poor Glyndwr is a most respected figure of our heritage?

Post 6

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Dear Alaw,

Thank you very much for reading my article and for commenting here :-) I would like to point out that both spellings are in use and there is some dispute as to which is correct. However from a brief search of the web it appears that "Glyndwr" is much more widely used on Welsh-language sites, and therefore I have altered the spelling used here. Thank you for bringing this to my attention :-)

MH


Post 7

Friday, July 30, 2004 - 2:34amSanction this postReply
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I have double-checked a few facts following Phil's post #2, and can confirm that GD did indeed have feudal serfs working his land. However once the revolution started he had widespread support amongst the general population and the Welsh serfs were very quick to come to his side. Many of them had already been protesting that they were freemen and disliked the feudal system which favoured the English rulers, wishing to substitute a much fairer (and rather more market based) system of rent for the land that they held.  Had GD clearedout the English completely I'm doubtful whether feudalism would have continued in Wales beyond that point.

A slight correction to my comment regarding Castro in post #4: He (rather amusingly) praised GD as a freedom fighter. All part of the socialist (mis)interpretation of events, which it sadly seems SOLOists are happy to accept without protest. 

MH


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