About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bravo Mr. Khawaja!  See if you can send your letter to the author of the article and get a response.  I for one would be interested to see that.

Post 1

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
You've more than refuted Lilthwick's article - you've pulverized the author's thesis!
This article deserves to be in print and reach a wider audience. In the meantime, this reader enjoy it!


Post 2

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 10:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
While I agree that it's wrong to criticize any group, gathering for any purpose, for providing for their well-being (such as the folks at the RNC), I don't see, in your article a necessary link between violence and political protest.  Certainly, there are separate incidents.  However, in my past I've been in a few protests myself, and I've witnessed many in the meantime.  None of the ones I was in turn violent...which is why they're not usually covered by anything outside of the local media.  Many of my former friends had the same experiences.  While I've since left my protest days, I still maintain that force of any kind is not inextricably linked to domestic political protest...any single incident automatically invalidates the claim.

Further, the terrorism link is another step.  Just because a terrorist could infiltrate a group to cause damage that won't be blamed on his cell does not mean that the protesters, themselves, have willingly and knowingly harbored a terrorist and, therefore, bear a moral culpability.  You may as well argue the landlord of a terrorist bear the same moral culpability, and is equally guilty of evasion of the fact, even if there's no evidence that he knew of his tenants' planned activities.

You can have a domestic protest without violence, destruction or terrorism...in as far as that is true, there is no link.  It's the fact that violence has happened before from protesters that safety precautions are taken, not because protests automatically lead to violence, in the same way that seatbelts are placed in all cars because accidents have happened, even though not all cars have been involved in accidents.


Post 3

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 1:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The “anti-globalization” protesters (aka anarchists) are known for their violence. This is expected to be a violent protest on the part of a core group.

I was a high school student in NYC back in ’68 and some of my friends were far Left types. There was no hiding the fact that violence was planned for the ’68 Democratic convention. Perspective protesters were forewarned by the planners.



Post 4

Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
To Joe Trusnik,

I think you're missing my point. I'm not arguing that there is a necessary connection between domestic political protest and terrorism, merely that there historically has been a connection, and in the future can be one. Lithwick's argument is that the very idea of worrying about any such connection, and that taking stock of it in planning the political conventions (or other events), is a Bush Administration scare tactic. The claim just flies directly in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence.

Nor is it a matter of mere "separate incidents." As I said in the article, International ANSWER is explicitly planning what it calls a "battle" for the "right" to protest on its terms in New York. A battle is an organized series of actions, not just separate incidents. If you click the link I provided for the anti-globalization protesters, you'll go to the journal Anarchy, which describes itself as a journal of "desire armed." That means that they see their whole movement as based on violence in the service of whim-worship.  As I said, every single major anti-globalization protest has been accompanied by city-wrecking violence. I named seven cities there, and could have named more. And if you click the other links, you'll be taken to information that clearly describes systematic campaigns built on violence, not just separate incidents.


Post 5

Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 6:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A couple points.

I've never seen the Unibomber referred to as 'right-wing' -- I think he'd be mad about being called right-wing -- his ranting manifesto advocated primitivist anarchism -- hardly the fare of Buchanan, etc.

"As I said in the article, International ANSWER is explicitly planning what it calls a "battle" for the "right" to protest on its terms in New York."

terms of warfare are commonly used in politics -- most articles you read about the US presidential race refer to 'the battle between Bush and Kerry' 'Kerry heads to battleground states' 'ACLU does battle with local religious group' -- etc. etc. you get my point -- no one expects Bush and Kerry supporters to turn each town Bush delivers a speech into Najaf because its called a 'battle'.

Also -- I've been to most the big anti-globo protests in the US and Canada, and over 100 protests in general -- The most violence I've ever seen the anarchists do at such an event is tip over a bus -- its illegal and they should be caught, put on trial, and punished -- I'm not arguing that. but...

Relatively minor acts of vandalism and property crime do not warrant NYC's crackdown on the right to assemble -- FBI visits (mainly) non-violent protestors at their homes, etc. before the RNC convention. Sure, have informants in the various anarchist groups to keep an eye on folks, take a couple other measures -- but actually dangerous terrorists who have the will and the capability to cause real damage will not be attending organizing meetings of pimply faced anarchists and withering old leftists reciting Marcuse.

In reality most of the security prep being taken by NYC for the protestors -- 98% who will be peaceful is a big government -- make work program -- the cops gets tons of over time (they have a powerful union) -- they get to spend millions on new equipment, etc. etc.

On another note -- instead of having 10,000 cops out babysitting a 98% peaceful crowd and collecting overtime -- small groups could actually go and arrest the people who go and committ property crimes. I make this point because at every large protest I've been to when a small minority engages in vandalism, I've never seen the actual vandals arrested -- instead the police use a tactic called 'containment' -- they go in and randomly arrest 2-30 people from the general site of the vandalism -- almost always innocent people just watching or in the wrong place at the wrong time -- in the hopes that this will pacify the crowd. It generally makes the situation worse. I hope this won't be the case in NYC -- but I doubt it...

cheers

Post 6

Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
what would be a good police response to the 250,000 protestors likely to show up at the rnc?

IMO -- most big protests I've been to (5,000 people and over) resemble sports events -- most people go along with the cheer leaders -- root for their cause and go home -- occasionally some people and groups cause problems -- at sports games its generally alcohol related (in fact its almost always alcohol related) -- the biggest sporting event I've been to had 55,000+ at it -- there were less than 100 uniformed cops -- most likely less than a dozen undercover and 100+ private security with another couple hundred doing general crowd control -- I saw one fist fight and a couple drunk people knocking over trash cans and what not afterward, thats about average for a corwd that size -- 250,000 protestors, which are expected in NYC -- less than a 1000 violent, probably less than 500 -- if NYC police wanted to do it, they could for under 1000 uniformed police then hire people at a much cheaper cost to do just crowd control type stuff -- report problems, etc. a couple dozen undercover, medical crews, etc. -- but the unions won't allow that and any reason to whip people up into hysteria so government can spend a lot more money needlessly and slowly erode more of our rights...

I actually think that a sober crowd of 250,000 protestors, especially the majority of folks to show up there could largely police themselves -- i was just at a 3-day reggae festival with 100,000 people at it -- no cops, no under cover, no private security, just volunteers -- and despite the massive amount of beer and drugs being consumed I didn't see anything get out of hand -- it is possible and more than likely the same would happen in NYC, but certainly won't be reality in the streets of new york this week thanks to NYPD and a couple dozen black wearing angry teenagers...

Post 7

Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 2:31amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Irfan - you note that Joe has missed your point. So too have a couple of other posters. Take heart, my friend. You are doing a terrific job of exposing the Islamic threat & the evil of those who would play it down or blatantly appease it (including Saddamites). I salute you. Keep those articles coming!!

Linz

Post 8

Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 6:08amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Irfan--point taken that I missed your argument (or, that I misunderstood Lithwick's).   My thanks for clearing it up.


Post 9

Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Stephen,

The most succinct response I can manage to your two posts is: come on.

People have referred to the Unabomber as right-wing because his manifesto attacks the Left (and "Leftism") by name. Click on the hyperlink in my article, which goes to his manifesto.

As for International ANSWER's use of the term "battle" versus that of Bush or Kerry, the reason why no one expects Bush or Kerry supporters to go to literal battle is because neither of them have a history of violence against their political opponents. "Battle" means something different coming from International ANSWER because they do. I have been to International ANSWER rallies (I was at the one in D.C. in April 2003, and I have seen them in operation in New York and New Jersey), and no matter how many police officers there are, there is always an air of menace about the protesters. No matter how much lattitude they are given by the authorities, they inevitably want to push beyond them. Their axiom seems to be: break every rule you can get away with.

The fact that you haven't seen anything more than a bus tipped over at one of these rallies just testifies to the fact that you were at the wrong place at the wrong time. I named seven cities where major protests took place, and it is a matter of public record that whole city blocks were wrecked in those cities by "activists." But what that doesn't cover are the smaller, annoying acts of illegality that these people commit that never get reported and for which no one gets arrested. I have academic colleagues who proudly admitted to blocking entrances to city buildings in Philadelphia (etc.) in "protest" over the Iraq war. Nothing happened to them. They just came back to campus and went straight to their "teach ins."

I have also seen animal rights activists harrassing scientists in my town (inspired by "Stop Huntington Animal Cruelty"). So far it has been "mere" property damage: a car blown up. That's "all." But sometimes they are smart enough to avoid property damage, such as when they harrass people by showing up at their houses en masse, and call them "murderers" through a bullhorn from the sidewalk. Try taking a group of unidentified protesters to court for "harrassment" and see how far you get. Standard MO for harrassment in municipal court is that they decline to prosecute, and send the case into "adjudication" with a shrink. Best bet: all of them will walk to commit the same crime next week and the week after. For any legal action to begin, they need to have harrassed you over and over, so that you can go to court, and waste tranches of time for a restraining order which you may or may not get. As for the signs around town that call you a "puppy rapist," no crime will have been committed there; that's just "free speech," so you've got put up with it, even if the signs have your address and phone # on them and produce an un-ending barrage of phone calls for weeks on end.

And sorry, there has been no "crackdown" on the right of assembly anywhere in Manhattan. 250,000 people cannot just show up in the city and expect to "protest" anywhere and anyway they please, any more than I can expect to invite 250 of my closest friends to throw a block party on my street, close it down for the day, and throw a fit when the cops show up.

Sorry again: fights and property crimes are not par for the course for any crowd of 250,000 or 250 or any number. We don't have to accept or normalize people's crimes. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that if 250,000 people are going to come out to one's city, the standard is that every single one of them will behave appropriately. It is good enough that people have to put up with that many people clogging the streets. We don't have to put up with their thuggery at all. And if their expectation is that it's par for the course that some violence is going to be done, well, it's par for the course that the cops are going to be out in force to arrest every damn one of them. The idea that these people can "self-police" is simply ridiculous. They've had since Seattle 1999 to do it, and so far, they haven't. And who is going to do the self-policing? Charlotte Kates?

So far, I have yet to see any cogent account anywhere that the police or municipal authorities in Boston or New York have done anything wrong. They are simply taking sensible precautions against groups who, time and again, have betrayed the public trust and gotten away with it. Exactly what "rights" are being "eroded" or violated? There is no "right to clog up thoroughfares with 250,000 screaming idiots, 500 of whom are certain to do violence while 5000 of the rest look on and cheer."  

 And that doesn't even address the fundamental stupidity and vacuousness of what these "protesters" have to say. As my left-wing academic father-in-law and Manhattanite put it the last time these folks came by: "I couldn't find a single protester who made even the slightest sense." Even when these people are "peaceful," they are incoherent at best and menacing at worst. Try to have a conversation with them. Their reflexive reaction to the mildest question is to surround the questioner and jeer. It is no accident that people so brainless would have such a powerful propensity to violence. They deserve a more severe critique than I was able to give them, but certainly more so than Dahlia Lithwick managed to dish out.  


Post 10

Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Linz, Pete, Jason, and Rick: Thanks!

Post 11

Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"People have referred to the Unabomber as right-wing because his manifesto attacks the Left (and "Leftism") by name. Click on the hyperlink in my article, which goes to his manifesto."

Lots of lefties attack the left all the time -- it doesn't mean they aren't leftists -- anyways this is a minor matter..

"As for International ANSWER's use of the term "battle" versus that of Bush or Kerry, the reason why no one expects Bush or Kerry supporters to go to literal battle is because neither of them have a history of violence against their political opponents. "Battle" means something different coming from International ANSWER because they do. I have been to International ANSWER rallies (I was at the one in D.C. in April 2003, and I have seen them in operation in New York and New Jersey), and no matter how many police officers there are, there is always an air of menace about the protesters. No matter how much lattitude they are given by the authorities, they inevitably want to push beyond them. Their axiom seems to be: break every rule you can get away with."

International ANSWER are -- like Piekoff, Kerry supporters -- perhaps they should have a joint press conference ;) -- also I was at the April 2003 rally you mention -- what latitude did the police give? I've never seen them give any. The anarchists who were there were small in number and International Answer has a real problem with them and vice versa -- the anarchist websites and discussion forums are often filled with rage against International ANSWER -- they use their rallies to their own ends. All the International ANSWER protests I have witness have been permitted by the local authorites, on schedule, etc.

"The fact that you haven't seen anything more than a bus tipped over at one of these rallies just testifies to the fact that you were at the wrong place at the wrong time. I named seven cities where major protests took place, and it is a matter of public record that whole city blocks were wrecked in those cities by "activists." But what that doesn't cover are the smaller, annoying acts of illegality that these people commit that never get reported and for which no one gets arrested. I have academic colleagues who proudly admitted to blocking entrances to city buildings in Philadelphia (etc.) in "protest" over the Iraq war. Nothing happened to them. They just came back to campus and went straight to their "teach ins."

I've definitely been in the right place -- if by blocks destroyed you mean lots of windows broken, graphitti, minor looting -- sure -- again I blame this on the police who on every occasion I have seen are more than capable of stopping and arresting the criminals who did such acts -- but chose not to for what ever reason.

I also differentiate between violence and civil disobedience -- while you can discuss whether such a tactic is useful or idiotic -- blocking an intersection or the entrance to a building, etc. is not violent and completely in line with the right to assemble. What should happen to people who conduct civil disobedience is also another question...Also in my post my comments only refer to protests -- not acts of vandalism, arson done in the middle of the night by groups like the ALF -- or harrassing people at their homes -- its a different matter.

"Sorry again: fights and property crimes are not par for the course for any crowd of 250,000 or 250 or any number. We don't have to accept or normalize people's crimes. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that if 250,000 people are going to come out to one's city, the standard is that every single one of them will behave appropriately."

Good behaviour should be expected at all events by all people -- thats simply not reality -- even in Objectivist Utopia -- you put 250,000 people at an event and some small % are going to do some bad stuff. Expectations and reality are different thing.

"It is good enough that people have to put up with that many people clogging the streets."

Put up with? People will be exercising their RIGHT to assemble -- I'm sorry its an inconvenience -- I happy to see people care enough about something that they actually take action on it -- depsite their politics not being mine for the most part. Should we assume you'd prefer there were no protestors in NYC for the political party that controls the presidency, and both houses of congress -- too me that would be the worst sign of all -- that people had just given up or there was such a high degree of homogeneity in culture that everyone was just hoo hum...

"We don't have to put up with their thuggery at all. And if their expectation is that it's par for the course that some violence is going to be done, well, it's par for the course that the cops are going to be out in force to arrest every damn one of them."

I hope the cops to arrest the people actually being violent at a protest -- I've never seen any evidence that they do -- they use lame tactics, let the violent ones get away and seemingly do everything they can to incite people and kick up there adrenaline level -- I expect nothing but the same in NYC and thats too bad.

We disagree fundamentally here and even though we've been at some of the same protests have seen something entirely different. Say hi to Michael Bloomberg for me.



Post 12

Monday, August 23, 2004 - 1:57pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Stephen writes:

 "People have referred to the Unabomber as right-wing because his manifesto attacks the Left (and "Leftism") by name. Click on the hyperlink in my article, which goes to his manifesto."

Lots of lefties attack the left all the time -- it doesn't mean they aren't leftists -- anyways this is a minor matter..

He doesn't just attack elements or aspects of the left--he attacks the Left as such, for being Left. A lefty who did that wouldn't be on the left anymore.

International ANSWER are -- like Piekoff, Kerry supporters -- perhaps they should have a joint press conference ;) -- also I was at the April 2003 rally you mention -- what latitude did the police give? I've never seen them give any. The anarchists who were there were small in number and International Answer has a real problem with them and vice versa -- the anarchist websites and discussion forums are often filled with rage against International ANSWER -- they use their rallies to their own ends. All the International ANSWER protests I have witness have been permitted by the local authorites, on schedule, etc.
What lattitude? A condition of the protest was that they were to confine it to a specific location. They didn't, and when they didn't, they weren't immediately arrested or even told to stop; the police just kept following them, slowly, or keeping pace with them, & waiting for them to do something more overt. By contrast: Try parking your car somewhere illegally. No meter maid is ever going to sit there not giving you a ticket in the hopes that you will come back and feed the meter. Try putting an addition on your house, however small, without a permit. Try getting out of a moving violation in municipal court by saying, "No fair, your Honor! It was trivial!" 

I don't buy the sharp distinction between International ANSWER and the dreaded anarchists. I know all about the anarchist "rage" for Int'l ANSWER and vice versa. It strikes me as a sectarian dog-and-pony show. But the fact is, if International ANSWER were really serious about dealing with the anarchists, they've had done it by now. They've had five years to do it. People so used to demanding the sky from others are not in a position to plead incapacity in dealing with the "small number" of anarchists who, for the last five years have habitually "infiltrated" International ANSWER's rallies and exploited them for their own ends despite Int'l ANSWER's deep "hatred" for them. Instead of making colossal demands of the government, why not start by cleaning up their own act?

On the police not arresting the right people (and arresting the wrong ones), I'd need to see something in the way of evidence.

On violence vs. civil disobedience, it's a false dichotomy. Both are acts of force, and both violate rights. If you're going to make this distinction and excuse the latter, you might as well distinguish between violence and fraud and excuse the latter.

I don't accept the idea that there is a "right to civil disobedience," except where one's rights are being systematically violated. The concept is a self-contradiction. If the function of law is to protect rights, how could there be a right to violate the law? That would be a right to violate rights. And the laws guaranteeing access to government buildings, like those guaranteeing access to abortion clinics, do protect rights. It is the people blocking access who are violating rights in both cases and should be removed. My right to have my passport renewed is not contingent on some activist's deciding that he'd like to block the door that day.

The "right to assemble"--like all rights--has to be regulated by a whole system of rights and made consistent with them. There is no "right to assemble" to commit crimes, and there is no "right to assemble" in such a way as to block other people's rights of movement. Nor, incidentally, is there a "right to assemble in such numbers as will destroy public property," which is precisely what "United for Peace and Justice" wants in Central Park. UPJ's ludicrous claim is that they should have the right to assemble in Central Park in any numbers they want even if it wrecks the lawn--and if they do, they shouldn't have to pay for it, everybody else should. In this respect, Bloomberg was 100% correct in describing their supposed "right" to assemble there as a "privilege." That is exactly what it is. They are being granted privileges that New Yorkers ordinarily do not have. And if they don't like it, they should exercise their right to assemble in a place where it doesn't impose exorbitant costs on everybody else.

Meanwhile, they are being allowed to march, Bloomberg is waving discount coupons in their faces, and a good number of them they are threatening to break the law and march into Central Park regardless of the outcome of the court decision. Such tyranny! I don't recall the last time the mayor of my town gave me coupons to bribe me into compliance with the law.

As for my expectations of 100% good behavior, they are hardly more utopian than the actual demands that "United for Peace and Justice" and its allies are making on the government and the rest of us. It's utopian to expect people not to commit vandalism or assault, but not utopian to "end the occupation, brings the troops home" tomorrow, end US support for Israel, stop military recruitment, end globalization, disarm the US of its nuclear weapons, etc. etc.?


Post 13

Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Something makes me think if you'd been around writing articles in the 50s you'd write a nasty article about Rosa Parks and why she should be criminally prosecuted for her actions. Bastard.

I think I am an O'ist in every way but for some reason I seem to be from Mars everytime I post on an O'ist message board or discussion list -- this isn't a recent thing or localized to solohq -- I can't explain it -- I love Ayn Rand's fiction -- I agree with it 85.87% of the time yet almost every self- I.d. ing O'ist I meet online or in person -- with the big exception being CMS -- I can't stand. I don't know if its cultural or what, but tonight I give up. Purge me from the site. I request from the moderator that you eliminate me like a picture of Trotsky standing next to Stalin -- this is the last O'ist site I even moderately liked -- I won't come back, I have better things to do.

Regardless -- peace and happiness to all of you. If the Christians are right I'll see you all in hell and we can talk further ;)

malk.

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 14

Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 6:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Something makes me think if you'd been around writing articles in the 50s you'd write a nasty article about Rosa Parks and why she should be criminally prosecuted for her actions. Bastard.

You wouldn't think that if the "thing" that was "making you think" was a brain.


Post 15

Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 12:06amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0823-15.htm



Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 16

Monday, August 30, 2004 - 9:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Irfan, a great article and impressive responses to your critics. Thanks. You have given me much additional ammunitiion.

Barbara

Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.