RoR: Forum

I am sad, but not surprised. And sad that I am not surprised. The vote is in two weeks. Don't get mad; get even.

Post 1

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 3:39pm

I am still trying to grasp why your involvement with this site would in any way necessitate your being placed on The List. If you are there, perhaps I'm there? I've got Objectivist postings all over the internet.

It's been very nice knowing all of you, but I don't believe they permit laptops in prison. However, I will be the loudest person they have ever put in pinstripes, so you might be able to hear me if I shout my messages out the prison windows.

Bastards.

Post 2

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 3:43pm

Is it because of the Patriot Act that this is now legal?

I am not terribly surprised, but angry and scared. What can be done?

Post 3

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 4:44pm

Maybe the FBI agent that put us on the list is an Objectivist that wants to have a reason to log on this site every day while at work.....or perhaps Adam's composition manifesto is a threat to homeland security in some way that we can't preceive...

Post 4

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 5:03pm

Oh no, maybe they'll see from my browsing habits that I prefer chubby women over the stereotypical model type, that I have an acute addiction to eBay, and that I check my mail and this site so frequently that I'm borderline compulsive.

Hey Jennifer, you and Martha Stewart could have an all-out cook-off in prison, and then you can tie your wrists together and fight to the death with home-made knives. I'm sure you're the better cook, but Martha Stewart could probably make a luxuriously dazzling shank, probably with a decorative handle and an engraved blade. haha

*Swat team crashes through my windows, guns ablaze*

AHhhhhhhHHh I'm hit! Viva la resistance!

*croak*

Post 5

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 5:19pm

Anyone with half a brain and any sort of capacity to hold genuine convictions is a potential threat... Not because they necessarily really are a threat, but because an individual mind is accountable to nothing but evidence, argument, and its own sense of reason.

In other words, intelligence is power. And power can be applied in various ways, not all of them necessarily wise.

I'm not defending the monitoring... I think perhaps it has to do with Tim McVeigh having been a Libertarian, and Libertarians can go in all sorts of random, anarchistic ways.

This is yet another reason why I'm a Objectivist, not a Libertarian... We make it a point to couple freedom with reason, instead of whim.

What's more, perhaps the people at the FBI haven't been fully briefed on the difference between the two groups. Maybe they don't know that Alan Greenspan is an Objectivist.

(Edited by Orion Reasoner on 10/21, 5:21pm)

Post 6

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 5:36pm

I'm half tempted to say something uncharacteristically obscene here just to fuck with the watchers who find it apparently necessary to watch even innocuous questioners of their power.

*tap dances while singing about kiddie porn and hitler*

Post 7

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 5:46pm

Well, there are many possible explanations. Perhaps someone involved with SOLO is an actual spy or an actual threat of some kind. Perhaps you aren't really being watched Adam. Perhaps someone in the government is wanting to bully the free-thinking types. Perhaps...

The government can do pretty well what it wants right now and it is a scary time. But if you live virtuously there will be nothing for them to dig up.

Adam, can you give me more reasons why you think you are under surveillance? I'm not convinced.

Post 8

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 5:52pm

Gentlemen,

I have only been a member of SOLO for a little over 2 months. Since Mr. Adam Buker has decided to go public with this, I believe it is time for me to go public as well.

The assignment of watching Mr. Buker was given to me a little over a year ago. In spite of his allusion to being 'watched' because he is posting on SOLO, Mr. Buker is a legitimate threat to national security.

Our records clearly indicate that Mr. Buker is a card-carrying member of the Communist Party. In the summer of 2001 he was photographed meeting a high-ranking member of Islamic Jihad. In the spring of 1994 a surveillance team intercepted coded messages from Mr. Buker to an unknown location in Iraq. There is even some evidence to suggest that in 1988 he personally took part in a foiled assassination attempt against an American Diplomat in Cairo.

This mans record dates back to the late 1970s, during which he was a member of S.L.A.

He is evil, and he must be destroyed.

Sincerely,

Agent John F. Kerry (FBI)

Post 9

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 6:18pm

I can vouch for the validity of the claims about Adam's deeds in the 70s... I was there.

Post 10

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 7:01pm

To quote the immortal Gomer Pyle:

"Wail... GAWH-awh-AWHLLL-LEEEEEE!!!!"

Post 11

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 10:10pm

I ask for serious attention.

Mr. Buker, of course, may or may not be right that the FBI has placed him in a secret police file. I use these words exactly. As no one here but himself, to my knowledge, knows the evidence, there is no way to judge this for certain.

But I assure everyone here, the kind of surveillance Mr. Buker believes himself to be under does exist, and it is abused to shadow, intimidate, harass, ruin, and jail real or alleged enemies of the state, and it is utterly possible that this case is for real. The PATRIOT Act in particular has been used by the federal government, and with legally dubious delegation to state and local governments, to permit government officials to monitor web browsing, email traffic (though only the senders and title, not contents of emails, from my information), phone and cell phone usage, and bank account transactions, among other things; in conjunction with civil asset forfeiture, conspiracy laws, sovereign immunity, and police license to defraud in the course of their profession, the results can destroy human lives.

I urge everyone here to take this seriously. And as lovers of freedom, I urge everyone here to lay aside disputes between Objectivists, libertarians, and others and become fully conscious of the quite possible immediate presence of a far more powerful enemy who may be hanging a Sword of Damocles in your midst. Please, there is a time for jest, but there is also a time to seriously gird on legal weapons of practical, constitutional- and philosophical- self protection.

At the very minimum, I advise Mr. Buker to post his general contact information publically on this forum to make it clear that any actions taken against him will be immediately reported and the prior knowledge of FBI involvement circulated through the entire Objectivist and libertarian communities and their extended media networks. I suggest that Mr. Buker circulate contact information with a few trusted friends and make some arrangements for his own security with persons in his own social circle whom he can trust.

Please, such things as Mr. Buker speaks of happen is this reality, this world, and possibly this website.  Possibly now. Romantic realism reminds us of the corollary of realistic romanticism... that fights over values, fights which may ruin your friends, happen in real life. Treat reality as seriously as art.

quoting Enjolras:
It is time for us all to decide who we are...
Do we fight for the right to a night at the opera now?
Have you asked of yourselves, of the price you might pay?
Is this merely a game, for rich young boys to play?
The color of the word is changing, day by day....

Dominique Venice         Y
"Not your kind of world!"
                                      Y   Y
P.S. I don't have a copy of Atlas Shrugged on me. Could someone who does, (Jennifer, perhaps?), post the paragraph of the Galt's speech where he talks about the fortunes of Francisco and Ragnar Danneskjold in the looters' world? Greatly obliged.

Post 12

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 11:30pm

I sincerely hope to hell this is a hoax. I debated with myself long and hard whether I should say anything about it. I remembered the whole exchange in which I found out. This was right after a school of music event in which SIU had just celebrated the renovation of Altgeld hall (the School of Music's main facility). I saw the serviceman outside of the building hanging around with some of his pals from the music fraternity on campus. The evenings activities had pretty much winded down when the serviceman (whom I'll refer to as Bill to keep his identity private) asked me point blank, "Hey, Adam. I'm just wondering... are you involved with a web site called SoloHQ?" I was literally dumbfounded. Unless he was already a member or had been spying on me himself, there was no way for him to know anything about my involvements with any site. I don't know him that well personally, so I wouldn't see any reason for him to spy on my web browsing activities. I also know that although Bill's read some of Ayn Rand's work, he doesn't care for a lot of her ideas or anything that she stands for. So he would have no interest in a site such as this one. As a member of the campus ROTC unit, they have received briefs from various government agencies about looking for and identifying suspicious activities going on campus. One of these briefs was a FBI watch list which mentioned me by name and this site by name. It was through reading that brief that Bill learned of Solo's existence and my involvement with it. I still have no idea if I should say anything to my parents. I don't want them to be scared for my life and liberty if there is no need for them to be. I'm still a bit scared, angry and shocked. Why me of all people? What did I do?

Adam

Post 13

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 11:35pm

Hey Jennifer, you and Martha Stewart could have an all-out cook-off in prison, and then you can tie your wrists together and fight to the death with home-made knives. I'm sure you're the better cook, but Martha Stewart could probably make a luxuriously dazzling shank, probably with a decorative handle and an engraved blade.

Undoubtedly her shank would be far more elegant. Mine would be more minimalistic--a veritable study of form following function. But I ain't scared. I can take her. Bring it on.

And Dominique, I would normally oblige your request, but I've just edited a 150+ page book in the last 24 hours, and I wish to have nothing to do with books for the next 24. :)

Shame on you for not having a copy of Atlas with you at all times. :P

Post 14

Friday, October 22, 2004 - 12:01am

Adam,

Unless he was already a member or had been spying on me himself, there was no way for him to know anything about my involvements with any site.

Its possible that he went to google.com and ran a search on your name. Your SoloHQ profile page is the first result that comes up. There was a thread about this a few months back - some were concerned that pretty much any member's Solo profile was one of the first results in a google search of their name.
You said you don't know this guy very well but is there any way it could be a joke?

MH

Post 15

Friday, October 22, 2004 - 1:13am

ROTC students are not given FBI watchlists. For any reason. Ever.

He knows your name. He apparently knows you have a liking for Objectivism--otherwise how would you know his likes or dislikes accordingly? A discussion between you two took place, about Objectivism or some such. He doesn't like you--or simply wants to have a bit of fun with you. He found you (probably, like MH says) at SoloHq. Plots his ruse. And BANG! we have an article.

(Edited by Jeremy on 10/22, 1:15am)

Post 16

Friday, October 22, 2004 - 1:41am

All I can say is - if the FBI regard SOLO as subversive and radical and worth worrying about (which I doubt), I'm reassured and gratified! In the unlikely event that they're reading this, I say to them: gentlemen, I hope you're also sufficiently astute to realise that SOLO is, in a very profound sense, on your side, dedicated as it is to the uniquely American values of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." For that very reason, no SOLOist poses a threat to anyone's life, liberty or property. In that sense, we are *not* worth worrying about, and you can safely focus your attention elsewhere.

Linz

Post 17

Friday, October 22, 2004 - 2:09am

meh. FBI isn't watching. I'm sure "Bill" is, though.

Post 18

Friday, October 22, 2004 - 4:59am

One thing not picked up so far is what exactly the "FBI" refers to.

Now, It could stand for "Friendly Browsers Incognito" - those that don't post on SOLO, but are logged on anyhow.

Why?

Clue 1: If the letters FBI are slightly rearranged then you get FIB. Clearly demonstrating that the "Federal Bureau of Intelligence" is just a distraction from the greater truth!!!

Clue 2: If the letters are reversed, then you get IBF. This is an abbreviation "Invasion of Board Forums". Coincidence? I think not.

Clue 3: If the letters are rearranged, then you get BIF. Bif(f) what? In NZ slang, to �biff� means to throw. Obviously he wants to biff all "Friendly Browsers Incognito"!!!! Also BIF is an abbreviation for "Balance in Full", obviously indicating that they are not pulling their weight in terms of contributions.

I am also working on the code in the "Cyrillic" alphabet, so I will keep you posted.

FAB ;-)

Post 19

Friday, October 22, 2004 - 6:39am