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Monday, October 25, 2004 - 1:28amSanction this postReply
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Excellent, excellent article.

One thing that many people fail to mention--but which Hospers describes here--is the importance of the party and movement that will win. A Kerry victory is not merely a Kerry victory. It is a victory for the entire left-wing cultural/media establishment, giving them access to the executive branch.

And there is no greater enemy, and more effective and important practical enemy, of liberty, than the cultural establishment. 

Something to consider if one feels that all else is pretty much equal. 


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Post 1

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 1:18amSanction this postReply
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Dr. Hospers writes:

"Saddam’s regime is no longer a major player in the worldwide terror network."

Iraq never was a major player, or even a minor one according to numerous sources, but reality doesn't seem to get in the way of Bush apologists like Miss Branden, Mr. Perigo and Mr. Hospers, who continue to spread this falsehood. And it's interesting how Mr. Kerry is accused of stealing an election before the fact. Amazingly, Mr. Hospers can now foretell  the future. Perhaps he can play Las Vegas with this new skill.

Mr. Kerry is no libertarian, but this objectivist fantasy that Republicans are better than Democrats is out and out laughable. Mr. Bush's tax cuts are phony, since we will all just have to pay higher taxes in the future to pay for his massive borrowing, and his Social Security "privitization" would simply be an excuse for the government to stick its nose in Wall Street even further. Bush's record on civil liberties is abominable, the man literally thinks he gets orders from a deity in the sky, he is determined to make abortion illegal again, his main base of support is right-wing religious whack jobs, and al Queda grows stronger every day as he piddles away American lives and treasure in Iraq. Vote for this creep? When hell freezes over. And not a day sooner. Dr. Hospers should be ashamed of himself. No doubt he'd be urging a vote for Hitler over Stalin as the lesser of the two evils.

John Kerry will be bad for America, but there is no good case to be made for rewarding the numbskull George Bush and his neocon hangers on with another 4 years in Washington, and no case whatever for sanctioning his evil administration with a vote. Vote for nobody or vote for Badnarik.



Post 2

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 1:44amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Fulwiler,

I just got the weather report from Lucifer (don't ask).

There's a blizzard in hell, my friend.

Alec


Post 3

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 3:10amSanction this postReply
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Both Barbara Branden and John Hospers make very good points about the danger of a John Kerry presidency in the USA but omit some of the dangers of a continued Bush presidency. Bush is a tax and spend Republican, certainly no conservative in the Reagan tradition, a man who seems to think war with Iraq was justified when none of the reasons given by him and his aids proved to be correct, and unable to imagine that this is why we are once again embroiled in a fruitless and ultimately unjustified overseas military venture. Not only is Bush a blindly faithful religious zealot but reportedly believes himself to be literally talking with God, something in an ordinary person would amount to either a gross deception or clinical derangement. He is quite unable to explain the nature of this "war on terror," just what kind of war it is, who are the enemies, how might they surrender and be defeated, nothing. Not that Kerry is any better on some of these matters and perhaps his disingenuousness on many of these fronts is even worse.
      One thing though with a Kerry Presidency--it will bog Washington down forever in gridlock, which has always been a pretty good thing for the little liberty Americans still enjoy.

Missed Opportunity to Kill Zarqawi:

The story of the 380 tons of explosives missing from a known base in Iraq is obviously big (and depressing), but that shouldn't entirely obscure another important story. A few months ago, co-conspirator Jacob Levy noted the lack of response to an NBC Nightly News report asserting that the Pentagon had located Zarqawi's camp in Iraq before the war began, but that the White House vetoed an attack on the camp because Zarqawi was more convenient as a living terrorist in Iraq who could help justify the war. Jacob followed up on the story here, and noted Robert Novak's claim that this was an "urban legend" here. That's the last I'd seen on any aspect of this story, and I assumed that there was nothing to it. But today's Wall St. Journal has an article on page A3 (subscription required) that returns to the issue. The whole article is worth reading, but I'll quote a few key paragraphs:

The Pentagon drew up detailed plans in June 2002, giving the administration a series of options for a military strike on the camp Mr. Zarqawi was running then in remote northeastern Iraq, according to generals who were involved directly in planning the attack and several former White House staffers. They said the camp, near the town of Khurmal, was known to contain Mr. Zarqawi and his supporters as well as al Qaeda fighters, all of whom had fled from Afghanistan. Intelligence indicated the camp was training recruits and making poisons for attacks against the West.

Senior Pentagon officials who were involved in planning the attack said that even by spring 2002 Mr. Zarqawi had been identified as a significant terrorist target, based in part on intelligence that the camp he earlier ran in Afghanistan had been attempting to make chemical weapons, and because he was known as the head of a group that was plotting, and training for, attacks against the West. He already was identified as the ringleader in several failed terrorist plots against Israeli and European targets. In addition, by late 2002, while the White House still was deliberating over attacking the camp, Mr. Zarqawi was known to have been behind the October 2002 assassination of a senior American diplomat in Amman, Jordan.

But the raid on Mr. Zarqawi didn't take place. Months passed with no approval of the plan from the White House, until word came down just weeks before the March 19, 2003, start of the Iraq war that Mr. Bush had rejected any strike on the camp until after an official outbreak of hostilities with Iraq. Ultimately, the camp was hit just after the invasion of Iraq began.

...

Some former officials said the intelligence on Mr. Zarqawi's whereabouts was sound. In addition, retired Gen. John M. Keane, the U.S. Army's vice chief of staff when the strike was considered, said that because the camp was isolated in the thinly populated, mountainous borderlands of northeastern Iraq, the risk of collateral damage was minimal. Former military officials said that adding to the target's allure was intelligence indicating that Mr. Zarqawi himself was in the camp at the time. A strike at the camp, they believed, meant at least a chance of killing or incapacitating him.

Gen. Keane characterized the camp "as one of the best targets we ever had," and questioned the decision not to attack it. When the U.S. did strike the camp a day after the war started, Mr. Zarqawi, many of his followers and Kurdish extremists belonging to his organization already had fled, people involved with intelligence say.

Note that the story doesn't discuss the allegation that the President vetoed an attack on the base in order to ensure support for the war in Iraq, but it does indicate that the Pentagon thought it had a good chance of taking out Zarqawi, and that the Administration chose not to do so. That fact alone is pretty distressing. We knew how dangerous he was, we knew where to find him, and apparently knew that the collateral damage would be minimal, and yet we failed to act. Ouch.

One small addendum: When asked about the NBC Nightly News story on June 27, Condoleezza Rice said "Let me just say we never had as far, as we know, we never had a chance to get Zarqawi." (Jacob has the quote here, under his second update.) So, was she lying, or was she out of the loop on this? If the former, that's pretty despicable (since it was an attempt to hide the truth simply to benefit her and her boss). If the latter, what kind of National Security Adviser is not getting this sort of information? If she's not getting it, doesn't that suggest that the NSC process is in pretty bad shape (and that the government is exhibiting the worst sort of stovepiping)?

 

(Edited by Machan on 10/26, 9:50am)



(Edited by Machan on 10/26, 9:53am)


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Monday, October 25, 2004 - 3:02amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Hospers makes an excellent point about just how bad things could get under John Kerry. Lifetime politicians are generally scoundrels but I see pure evil in today's democratic party. Evil like Stalinist Russia was evil. Put simply: They want to control our lives! That's true of the republican party too but the idea has not taken root so much there.
 
That's not paranoia. Regulations are already well beyond the point of ridiculous. Bush is not an inspirational President. Bush is a way to hang on to what we have for a bit longer. In the meantime, we better figure some things out. It's time for us to become active. Maybe we need to have a sit-down discussion with the republican party and talk about our common enemies.


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Monday, October 25, 2004 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
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This is one article which says more without ink than with. Hospers writes not one word about the growth of theocracy in Bush's America - not even on recess appointments of theocrats to the judiciary, or about unprecedented statutory bans on basic medical research. I don't know where Hospers now stands on the constitution, or on freedom of scientific inquiry, but the absence of even nominal concern for what I consider to be the key issues - where Bush's actions are evidence of Bush's fundamental anti-Americanism - speaks volumes.

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Post 6

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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Perhaps Professor Hospers decided that the immediate threat of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism is a rather more pressing concern than the possibility of a longer term effort to shift the US toward Christian fundamentalism? I agree with many of the criticisms of Bush in terms of both domestic and foreign policy (including the Iraq campaign), but ultimately he has stood up to the threat while Kerry seems to have dithered over every issue.

MH

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 10/25, 1:47pm)


Post 7

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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Well, Mr. Bush may have been firm on all his War issues, but was he objectively right
I hate to try and boil down the issue to such a short statement, but I am tragically uninformed on the candidates (or at least, I don't trust all the information on them I get; it spins more than Ayn Rand in her grave these days);  either way, there must be a better way of dealing with threats of terror than pushing towards violence and civil lockdown, not to mention dealing with the dispensing of civil liberties, and the promotion of education.

If I could vote, I'm not sure I would.  unfortunately. 

Michael


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Post 8

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 5:01pmSanction this postReply
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This is the best summary of the priorities that make a vote for Bush imperative for libertarians. And coming from John Hospers, it is all the more valuable, as he has held high the banner of a third party as well as any man ever has. Those who want to see the 21st century be the slow unraveling of the socialist 20th century had better have nothing to say if if the don't vote for Bush and he is defeated.

Post 9

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 5:37pmSanction this postReply
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As a fan of John Hopsers's clear philosophic writings on a number of issues, including his classic critique of the rationalistic strand of the natural rights wing of libertarians and his analysis of immigration, I'm disappointed at his inability to empathize more reasonably with those of us (myself included) who are disappointed with Bush.

I am not clear on why the Bush Administration, which distorted the intelligence on Iraq by listening to only the intelligence that suited its position in order to lead America into war, should be granted legitimacy with a re-election.  It's not a good idea to reward such behavior, though I guess some Americans think it was the right thing to do, despite all the deception used to justify it.

Kerry's leftism seems quite real, but anyone representing the part of Massachusetts Kerry comes from would have to maintain an equally liberal voting record to keep his seat.  A Senator's voting record isn't as representative of his convictions as those of a governor's record.  On the other hand, if Kerry is really as leftist as his voting record, I'm not sure what the result of four years of him would be.  Unopposed, it would be a disaster.  But Bush has not vetoed one spending bill in the last four years.  So if there are any objections to Kerry's presidency, I don't see how they could be made fiscally or economically when compared to Bush, whose biggest achievement was cosmetic tax cuts combined with record levels of deficit spending.  I think the real question is who Kerry would appoint to key positions in his cabinet and whether he would face political opposition (genuine ideological opposition) from the other branches of government.

I don't know what the best thing to do on Election Day is.  I would argue that people who are unhappy with the present choices vote for third-party candidates if only to register the percentage of dissenters in America on the current policy.  I wish there was a protest vote for "no one in particular" on each ballot.

However, one thing I have noticed about supporters of Bush is that they are often people who minimize the repercussions of the policies that Bush is currently enacting just because of their support of the War on Terror.  I only hope the rise of fundamentalist Christianity, the economic and political effects of the war (such as conscription and higher levels of foreign debt) and the illusion of complete security do not come back to haunt you.  And since you encouraged Bush with a reelection, you won't have any moral standing when you criticize him.


Post 10

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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"And since you encouraged Bush with a reelection, you won't have any moral standing when you criticize him."

What? Are you seriously saying that just because one votes for a person he cannot criticize him? That is manifestly absurd.



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Post 11

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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What? Are you seriously saying that just because one votes for a person he cannot criticize him? That is manifestly absurd.
Alec,

I have no doubt that my statements can be given an absurd interpretation.  But my point is simply this: if after seeing how Bush and the neocons subverted the facts about 9/11, Saddam and Iraq to lead Americans to a support a preemptive war which violates just war theory in just about every conceivable way, you decide to endorse such behavior by voting Bush back in, you have endorsed the worst aspects of government lies and propaganda.  After that, you pretty much get what you deserve.  You have endorsed the war and how it was prosecuted, lies and all.

I really wish that America had a better alternative than Kerry.  But I think that people who vote in Bush because they think that he will be tougher on terror had better be clear that they are endorsing government actions that were inherently based on a mass deception of the American people.  I still think that the principled action, based on the WMD and intelligence fiasco, is to not vote for Bush.  There are dangers to such a policy, but I am not convinced that they outweigh the dangers of endorsing what Bush and the neocons have done.


Post 12

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 9:18pmSanction this postReply
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Next Level, I agree.   A vote for Bush is a sanction to the deceptions carried out by the neocons.  And, although Kerry has socialist leanings, I think that Republicans in Congress will be able to keep him in check.  If Kerry gets out of line, you will probably see another Republican revolution in the subsequent election. 

Adam Reed (in an earlier thread) makes a good point that the Clinton presidency would probably be a good barometer of what to expect from Kerry.  Clinton, for all his leftism, was an ardent poll-watcher and made a concerted effort to stay in the center for re-election purposes.  It is not foolish to expect the same from Kerry.

Additionally, although many people on this forum think a draft is not possible in the War on Terror, I don't fully agree.  I could see a draft taking place if al Quaeda were to successfully pull off an attack on a considerably greater scale than 9-11.  Just imagine if the Islamists set off multiple simultaneous dirty bombs in major cities, killing tens if (not hundreds) of thousands of people.  Do you think the Bush adminstration would stand by idly and say, "well, we just have to stay the course in Iraq and plant the seeds of democracy in the region"?  Uh, no! They would probably be most compelled to launch a large scale invasion and occupation of Iran, Syria and/or Pakistan (the last of which, by the way, has always been the most likely source from where terrorists would gain nuclear capability), which would require far more troops than the US military currently has available, especially if the lessons of the Iraq campaign are to be heeded.

Now, certainly, even Senator Flip Flop (if President) might be tempted to do a draft under these circumstances -- especially if the egalitarian reforms of the draft system currently proposed by the Democrats become law (I mean, what more could a leftist ask for than equal opportunity self sacrifice!) -- but my gut tells me that Kerry would be less likely to do a draft than Bush. 


Post 13

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 1:15amSanction this postReply
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Yes, freedom-lovers everywhere: Vote for Bush! Let him devastate our economy still more. Let him undermine our civil liberties still more. Let him wage war and peace with incompetence still more. Let him spend freely, pump up the deficit, and promote our friend Big Brother with energy and vigor!

Now is not the time to vote for freedom. Now is not the time to support justice and individual rights. Now is not the time to stand on principle or vote your conscience. Now is not the time to cast your ballot with morality and fundamental human decency.

At this point in human history and the War on Terror what we really truly need -- as Hospers and 95% of the Objectivist/libertarian community have very helpfully pointed out  -- is an irrational, reactionary, half-crazy, failed moron as leader of the Free World. Certainly not someone reasonable, well-balanced, semi-heroic, intelligent, and normal like Kerry. Realism, practicality, and pragmatism dictate we all vote for Bush.

We can all vote for liberty, justice, individual rights, reason, intelligence, sobriety, sanity, virtue, nobility, honor, normalcy, and human decency...later.  


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Post 14

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
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I wrote Mr. Hospers back c/o johnhospers@sprintmail.com
I also wrote a pre-emptive letter of apology, n the event his letter was not written by him, but perhaps was another GOP trick.

Mr. Hospers...

I have just read your "Open Letter to Libertarians" with slack-jawed horror. Your promotion of Bush at the expense of Kerry is one of the most insulting things ever to come out of a libertarian typewriter. You need to immediately disassociate yourself from the name, the cause, and the party of remaining "Libertarians."

Thankfully, this election, few people will listen to you. But I did, and I feel like giving you a brow-beating. I'm only sounding as strident as I do to match your own illogical, almost hateful tone.

I had wanted this letter to be about 10 pages. Going paragraph by paragraph, sentence by sentence, and point by point to refute your unbelievable assertions. You are probably too busy to read them. If you'd like, I could continue in another letter, if you desire to keep your mind open, as I do mine...every day.

It is with this open mind that I have learned all that I could. I've educated myself on all party's platforms, the real dialogue as well as the polarizing force-feeding done in the name of "Party Politics" (translate: Democrat/Republican). I have gone to the websites, the articles, the people. I've read behind the news stories, the ones fictionalized by Bush as well as real news stories. I've gone to the heart of the SYSTEM of politics, as well as what we commonly call politics. As such, I've identified myself as a left-leaning Libertarian independent. I disagree with parts or all of every party, not just the major ones. And I realize that my individual perspective is just that. That I have to play ball with the balance of the country. And I go to the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, those near-perfect documents for sustenance and perspective. As I know you do.

For every blast you make against Kerry and the Democratic Party, I could give you 3 similar blasts back at the Republicans and Bush. Whatever you accuse the Dems of, the Bush Boys have done, even worse. It's politics, professor, and we're all used to the way they play it. Bush's people just play it much, much dirtier. For every attack you make on the "5th Column Left" (a noxious term) I could give you two back for the "5th Column Right." (though I'd never stoop to such a propagandizing misnomer). Those fundamentalist neo-con anything-but-conservative single-issue button-pushers who have co-opted the true Republican Party, the true conservative cause are at best, equally bad. I feel that they are significantly worse to the average American. I could go on and on with specifics, and maybe you've heard it all, but never from one who ostensibly agrees with you on principle.

You have done a great disservice to the BIG CAUSE. Whatever your apologies as to "the tiny rhetorical battle" having to be put off in favor of "most favorable chance of winning," you have undermined the larger cause and your own principles. That is not the Libertarian way. You might believe that Bush is a better Libertarian than Kerry, others disagree. I think they're both way off, and I think a lot of the country thinks they're both way off, and every time you get an individual to take a poll on issues, they are more in line with Libertarians than anyone. That's a true start.

The system is unfair, undemocratic, and unrepresentative. The way political campaigns and elections are funded and carried out is unfair at every step. Financing, ballot access, primaries, debates, media, returns, it's all a sham, designed to keep all the power with the two parties. And what do we get? We get two watered-down candidates that no one really wants. They just don't want the other guy.

The fight to change the system seems overwhelming. I've proudly "wasted" my vote on 3rd party fringe candidates and independents my whole life. And worked where I can to advance systemic change, locally as well as nationally. And where are we now? In blue states, and red states, and swing states, in which despite the propaganda, our votes don't really count or matter. The biggest lie in this country is the one we tell our kids: "Anyone can become President."
The second biggest is "your vote counts." How does it count when 50% don't feel impelled to vote, and the ones who do vote don't vote for who they want to win?

So what does the former head of the Libertarian party cry: "Waah, waah, I don't like Kerry, so vote Bush." You are now...part of the problem, and my new adversary. Just like the PARTIES want you to be.

Face it. You sold out. Shame on you.

(Name)
(RED STATE)


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Post 15

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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Andre, here's where you lost me:

Certainly not someone reasonable, well-balanced, semi-heroic, intelligent, and normal like Kerry.

 Wha?

The stars and stripes are in a world of trouble with Kerry or Bush. My speculation is that the rising tide of the Left (which include both major parties) is of the same nature as what happened in Russia and Germany in the early 20th century. It's a mentality. There's a slimy, parasitic socialist monster over in the corner; we all see it but we aren't saying or doing anything about it.

The problem is much larger than the vote next week. It's time for real people to become involved again in politics.


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Post 16

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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One of the posters at SoloHQ asserts that Bush is "a man who seems to think war with Iraq was justified when none of the reasons given by him and his aides proved to be correct..."

 

Much as I agree with this poster on 99.99999 percent of the issues, I don't think the above claim is true even if no WMD-related stockpiles had been found. The poster and I disagree on this one little thing.

 

For the claim to be true that none of the understanding of the threat posed by Iraq was valid, it would have to be _false_ that Saddam's government was a brutal dictatorship, _false_ that Saddam had invaded Kuwait, _false_ that Saddam was a sponsor of terrorism, _false_ that Saddam was hostile to the U.S., _false_ that Saddam had hostile designs toward the U.S., _false_ that he did not comply with the terms of surrender after Iraq was expelled from Kuwait, _false_ that he had pursued (and used) WMDs and--even if he had no functioning WMD program at the time of invasion--_false_ that Saddam would have worked to resume WMD development just as soon as the heat was off.

 

And it would have to be _true_, with respect to intelligence assessment, that one must make a decision to go to war based on what one will learn about the enemy's capabilities after one has defeated the enemy, rather than at the time the decision must be made. But, alas, Bush had no time machine available to him. I concede that our president is not the most rhetorically sharp knife in the drawer and that he did not have a time machine.

 

One can make a plausible case against the decision to go to war, since such a decision is based on more than the reasonable assessment of threat. But one cannot make a plausible case that Iraq under Saddam was not a threat to us. If a guy has gun and bullets, the fact that he hasn't yet put the bullets in the gun is not much comfort if the guy you're talking about is a murderer intent on murdering.

 

If a guy has a gun and no bullets, the fact that he's not buying bullets while the cops are maintaining a perimeter about his apartment and staring through the window doesn't prove he's no longer any threat either. Intelligence assessments of the Iraqi regime, flawed as they may have been, were not made in a vacuum and were not the sole rationale for the war. There was a history with Iraq. So if you think the war was unjustified even despite Saddam's conduct and manifest intentions, fine; that's certainly a legitimate case to make, so make that case or state your reservations, as Nathaniel Branden reasonably did in his recent interview with Free Radical magazine. But it shouldn't be a case that ignores pertinent facts, going no deeper than the latest headlines and most prominently bandied contentions, which libertarians try to see past when it comes to domestic issues. It shouldn't be a case premised on the notion that Saddam had to be the military equal of the U.S. in order to cause terrorist-type trouble for us. Can all of us concede, at least, that Iraq is not Canada?

 

Following are links to a couple of the stories about the uranium that was still in...er...yes, Iraq...at the time of the invasion.

 

David M. Brown

 

The uranium was real enough to make people sick:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/1920171

 

A more recent piece, commentary, at NewsMax:

 

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/10/8/112447.shtml

Friday, Oct. 8, 2004 11:16 a.m. EDT

No WMD Stockpiles in Iraq? Not Exactly ...

With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff

 

Is it really true that Saddam Hussein had no "stockpiles" of weapons of mass destruction before the U.S. invaded in March 2003?

 

Not exactly -- at least not if one counts the 500 tons of uranium that the Iraqi dictator kept stored at his al Tuwaitha nuclear weapons development plant.

 

The press hasn't made much of Saddam's 500-ton uranium stockpile, downplaying the story to such an extent that most Americans aren't even aware of it.

But it's been reported - albeit in a by-the-way fashion - by the New York Times and a handful of other media outlets. And one of Saddam's nuclear scientists, Jaffar Dhia Jaffar, admitted to the BBC earlier this year, "We had 500 tons of yellow cake [uranium] in Baghdad."

 

Surely 500 tons of anything qualifies as a "stockpile." And press reports going back more than a decade give no indication that weapons inspectors had any idea the Iraqi dictator had amassed such a staggering amount of nuke fuel until the U.S. invaded.

 

That's when the International Atomic Energy Agency was finally able to take a full inventory, and suddenly the 500-ton figure emerged.

 

Still, experts say Saddam's massive uranium stockpile was largely benign.

 

Largely? Well, except for the 1.8 tons of uranium that Saddam had begun to enrich. The U.S. Energy Department considered that stockpile so dangerous that it mounted an unprecedented airlift operation four months ago to remove the enriched uranium stash from al Tuwaitha.

 

cont. at:

 

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/10/8/112447.shtml

 

 

##


Post 17

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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I generally agree with Lance, and I like his spirit, but he writes in Post 15:
 
The stars and stripes are in a world of trouble with Kerry or Bush. My speculation is that the rising tide of the Left (which include both major parties) is of the same nature as what happened in Russia and Germany in the early 20th century. It's a mentality. There's a slimy, parasitic socialist monster over in the corner; we all see it but we aren't saying or doing anything about it.

 
Kerry flip-flops shamelessly, seemingly won't ever tell the truth about his views on Iraq, and uses truly scary socialist rhetoric. But the reality is probably as Clinton stated in 1996: "The era of big government is over." As long as we watch President Kerry like a hawk -- as we and the Republicans did with Clinton -- the socialist danger from him is minimal.
 
On the other hand...the pro-freedom rhetoric of Bush is as empty as anything has ever been in the history of man. He is Big Brother personified. And somehow he's very persuasive -- probably because he truly "believes" (religious style i.e. emptily) in what he calls "freedom." This lets him convince/scam others easily and implement his Orwellian policies with full Republican and partial Democratic support.
 
America just can't survive 4 more years of Bush. Kerry is superior in almost every way, just as Clinton was.
 
That's how I see it, anyway. 



Post 18

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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More on Hospers -- (reprint of William B.J. Wagener's)
from Badnarik for President - Libertarian site
http://badnarik.org/supporters/blog/2004/10/25/in-response-to-benedict-arnold/

REPORT on DISCUSSIONs with Dr. Hospers.

I spoke with John from 9pm to 4:30 a.m. the night Oct. 25th-26th, 2004. He was on the phone speaking to a Libertarian from East Coast as I knocked on his Hollywood Hills Door. Only a young nephew is now living with John Hospers.

He can’t answer all the emails and phone calls. But he said tells all who inquire, that he did indeed author the letter. But he told me: Bush is better than Kerry, because Islamic [murdering] extremists are the greatest threat to Liberty. Hospers was bsolutely “fixated” on “Islamic extremists intent on killing
every non-Islamic person in the world".
This “threat trumps all other concerns".
I attempted to reason with Dr. Hospers from several angles of logic, but logic
seemed not to work. “Only Bush perceives
the great danger” was his reply.

After more than 8 hours of two way discussion, I concluded, that Dr. Hospers, has been isolated too long! He was unaware that David Cobb and Michael Badnarik had been arrested, unaware of several of the Patriot Act provisions, and numberous other factoids that most Libertarians knew for fact. He was not sure that Badnarik had been arrested at St. Louis, but was for the sake of arguement willing to take my word for it, without conceding it as a fact, known to be true.

My Conclusion:

Dr. John Hospers, is not in the same mental level of sharpness, he was even 3 years ago when I did a Tv interview for a documentary on the Libertarian Party with him at the 2001 San Jose Ca. State Convention. Randy Debber is more the author of the “Hospers” “Open Letter", than Dr. John Hospers, even though John
is quick to claim “credit” for it, while acknowledging “it probably won’t change many minds, least of all Libertarians".
Lastly, Dr. Hospers is now of somewhat fragil physical condition. He is certainly in a state of decline, but still wanting to not be forgotten… to have some impact … to save us all from
murdering Islamic extremists. Many elderly become obsessed with “security” as they become less able to care for themselves.

Therefore, even though a very aged Dr. Hospers accepts credit for the “Open Letter", I conclude Randy Debber used his knowledge of Dr. Hospers current condition and proclivities, and worries to put Dr. Hospers name on a document, that Debber coached out of Hospers. Dr. Hospers did indeed write his concerns in the letter, and will acknowledge that Dr. John Hospers considers Cheney the real brains, and Bush a bad debater and “not too bright", but still feels that “Kerry will not stop the Islamic Extremist intend on murder every non-islamic even in America".

He finally stated, that he did NOT think his “open Letter” would do much to bring Bush votes, but felt impelled to do it, when asked by a certain, Randy Debber. Finally, by way of long discussion, Prof Hospers let out that Debber had written the final draft, and Randy Debber had sent the email, because supposedly John is not computer savy [according also to what Mr. Debber emailed].

I indicated that since Kerry will sweep California, his letter will do no go whatsoEver since all CA electorial votes in the Electorial college will go to Kerry, even if Every BADNARIK supporter defected to Bush. Dr. Hospers agreed and acknowedged that, but stated he hoped it would reach Libertarians on “independant” voters in battleground states. Dr. john Hospers in the course of 8 hours stated, that the Libertarian Party was not even a blimp on the political radar screen as far as Presidential things go. then why bother to write a Open letter? John “hoped” it might do some good, while acknowledging, again, he probably did not change any votes.

For a man whose life was centered around rational thought, I felt I was talking only to a shadow of that mental giant. Logic, reason, were absent. The clich’es of logic and reason were there, but not the actual substance.

So I conclude, the Letter IS a FAKE, in that without Randy Debber, it would never have been. John Hospers has his own PC and is still capable of using it, and still answers some email, but DEBBER is the one who SENT the “open Letter".

Randy Debber, whom I have never met, and never heard of until I tracked down the Email author is in my view, the author of the John Hospers “OPEN LETTER”

John will stand there and tell you it is his, but I think what John Hospers wants most, is not to be forgotten, while he is still alive. He talks about Islamic Extremists, yes. But I think if he had met Mr. BADNARIK, and been invited to any discussion, Randy Debber would not have been able to get this aging elder philosopher to put his name on this letter. There is more to say, in detail, but this is my conclusion after more 8 hours of discussion.

What Randy Debbers motive was or is in this, I can only speculate, and that I won’t do."

William “B.J.” Wagener

Post 19

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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I suppose you want us to believe that Dr Hospers' previous article posted on SOLO was also written by Randy Debber?

MH



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