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Post 40

Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 10:49pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Not in my view.  I'm just saying that Rand, like most people, was unlikely to tell people to read exactly what she had read - probably mostly what she liked.

I read about religion for my intellectual honesty - I've gone way too far into my readings of philosophy, evolutionary biology and modern neuroscience  to ever take Christianity seriously as anything more than a very important, shared cultural heritage.


Post 41

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 12:36amSanction this postReply
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double post deleted
(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/31, 12:37am)


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Post 42

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 12:36amSanction this postReply
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Well, Next, if we take Rand at her best, and least didactic, she wrote that we shouldn't take her arguments as the last word, but go to the source material and judge for ourselves. I think she wrote this specifically in PHILOSOPHY WHO NEEDS IT. Something about not accepting dogma, Objectivist or otherwise...so I don't think it's relevant whether she would or would not advocate reading the bible. Now, back to the thread of introversion/extroversion...

I would love to write more, but it is getting too crowded in here for this introvert, need some alone time to recharge!

Joe R., this is your thread, and thanks for thinking about the matter, but I just want to say that if you are arguing about the terms introvert and extrovert as a false dichotomy the way they are currently used loosely in common parlance, well, thank you for saying so, but it seems redundant after some of the other arguments on the other thread. And the reason I brought attention to THE INTROVERT ADVANTAGE in my review, as well as the work of Jung, is to dispel the same dichotomy. And again, the INTROVERT ADVANTAGE does spend considerable time to the neurological conditions involved, in order to justify the claim that contrary to popular belief, being predominantly introverted is nothing to be ashamed of, and that introverts and extroverts need not live in misunderstanding of each other.

All I wanted to do was to counter some of the negative ideas floating around about introversion as antisocial and or shy, as well as extroversion meaning second hander or mob mentality, as well as offer a book that I believe offers a rational objective view of the subject based on science. After all is said and done, I hope that I offered a book that will give understanding to those who find themselves stigmatized by their preference of being alone, without demonizing those who enjoy social situations in the process.




(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/31, 1:05am)

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/31, 1:08am)


Post 43

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 2:06amSanction this postReply
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Joe R,

You're quite right. Whether it's the introvert or the extrovert that's being portrayed in a negative light, neither concept is adequate because they both bundle together quite different personalities. I think your account is better because it accounts for the phenomenon of the introvert becoming an extrovert in a situation where his values are to the fore. A SOLO conference is one example, as you point out. Get a lot of intellectuals together, and you're likely to find people who'd usually be classified as introverts. I don't think it's controversial to view intellectuals as having a tendency towards what, in the culture, would be called introversion. And yet such people, together in a certain kind of environment that stimulates their values, can become highly charged.

I think your counter to the troll was good. We know what you're talking about. Besides, all sorts of silliness becomes trendy in certain scientific circles, with supposed "empirical" justification (which usually means taking a real phenomenon, giving it some crazy arbitrary explanation and demanding others refute it). This seems to be particularly the case in the field of psychology, for some reason. 


Post 44

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 5:47amSanction this postReply
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"But for a quick response to your question, I quote Sylvia Plath: "Every woman adores a fascist." "

This sounds a bit like:

All women want to be raped.
Or "She was asking for it your honour"


What a sad sad view.



Post 45

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 6:41amSanction this postReply
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Joe M,

In addition to what you said about the fact that at least some psychologists (and Keirsey is in this group) push the enlightened version of the Introvert/Extrovert dimension to enhance understanding, I would like to add and stress to its critics that it is ONE personality dimension.  ONE.  Uno.  No one uses it to deny individuality.  It is just one dimension along which we express it  and is considered of interest in at least one system of psychological classification.

And if systems of psychological classification give rise to infantile rants about the irrationality of determinism (though this is not quite the same determinism as the problem of free-will discusses, though it isn't totally unrelated), just remember that whenever you try to explain human behavior, or whenever you buy your girlfriend those roses that you are fairly sure that she will like, you are using the methods of a determinist!

Post 46

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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Joe M.,

"But for a quick response to your question, I quote Sylvia Plath: "Every woman adores a fascist." "

What is this supposed to mean?  It is a ridiculous statement, to say the least, so I'm wondering what you're trying to illustrate with it.

(Edited by Jennifer Iannolo on 10/31, 2:04pm)


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Post 47

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 1:19pmSanction this postReply
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While no expert at all on this topic, I also think that it isn't entirely the province of the experts since it is about us, after all, and we do observe ourselves, at least a lot of us do, and can learn from that a bit about the matter. So, let me just say that my own observation, including introspection, suggests that this is indeed a bogus dichotomy. At times one may be very outspoken, energetic, dynamic, forthright, blunt, what have you but at other times--maybe with some other people, maybe on various topics--one may well be quiet, reserved, reticent, withdrawn, etc. I know this to be so with myself. (You will forgive me if I do not go into details, I hope, although I appreciate that it would help since the devil's in them.) Just one little personal bit on this: As a newcomer to America I was rather scared and withdrawn for a little while but quickly realized it would impede my efforts to navigate the country competently. So about a week after I enrolled in high school I signed up for the debating club. Scared the hell out of me but how else was I to get into the swing of things? And, of course, the strategy paid off. I stopped being withdrawn and reticent. But I will could have remained such. So, free will rears its glorious head. 

Post 48

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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Come on Jennifer,

It is obvious what he means:

"Bitches like to be slapped around a bit';
"When a bitch says no she really still wants you to rape her"
"If the bitch was wearing that dress she had it coming"

Sorry about my language. But I think if I put it in simple terms like this, and don't hide behing a quote, the meaning and the nastiness shine through.

But to use a quote I am reminded of Neitzche's "thou goest to woman - forget not thy whip"

This was from a sad little man whose only experience with women was a rather twisted relationship with his sister. No wonder he directed his self hatred outwards towards women who he could never have. Perhaps Joe M. Suffers from the same Syndrome?

Whoooops! Was that too personal. Well - he was asking for it!

Post 49

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 6:57pmSanction this postReply
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Martin writes:
"Perhaps Joe M. Suffers from the same Syndrome?"

Well, you can ask me why I posted that, with a chance to explain, since it was a "quick answer," or you can jump to conclusions and question my nature and psychology. You can also project your own conclusions onto what I said, your own little secret fantasies and desires about slapping around women. You choose.

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/31, 6:58pm)


Post 50

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 7:08pmSanction this postReply
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Jen, you write:

"What is this supposed to mean? It is a ridiculous statement, to say the least, so I'm wondering what you're trying to illustrate with it."


You then write on another thread:)(Shortest Books)

Profiles of Rational Women

Women Who Think, and The Men Who Love Them

Feminist Heroes

What is THIS supposed to mean? I am wondering what you are trying to illustrate with it.


Post 51

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Joe.

I listed those titles with tongue firmly planted in cheek.  :)  Actually, as I was doing so, I realized that you may have listed your quote in humor, and was looking forward to reading your explanation.

However, I will say that despite my humorous approach to such titles, there is some truth to them.  Out of the volumes of people I have met in my life, the women who would qualify as rational comprise a very tiny group.  The proportion of men who appreciate those qualities (not just giving lip service to it) is larger, but I have only found such men in Objectivist circles. 

Perhaps your approach with the quote was the same?

As for feminism, my previous postings on the subject illustrate where I stand on the issue.

I hope this clarifies things for you.  Please feel free to continue with questions if not.

Jennifer

(Edited by Jennifer Iannolo on 10/31, 10:33pm)


Post 52

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 8:04pmSanction this postReply
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Now, sarcasm aside...
The following post has been rated 'R'for mature situations.

I will preface my statements with a question: Anyone here familiar with the character of Brunhilde?

First of all, I did not write the quote, Sylvia Plath did. So don't ask about me; instead is it, Martin, obvious what (s)he means:

"Bitches like to be slapped around a bit';
"When a bitch says no she really still wants you to rape her"
"If the bitch was wearing that dress she had it coming"

(That is not language I use.)

Now if you haven't read Sylvia Plath, you may not understand her context or reasoning for writing that. Obviously (or maybe not so obviously) it is a metaphor. But the more astute may recognize why I used that particular quote in regards to Martin's original question (and the readers of JARS may recognize that Slavoj Zizek used this line by Plath in his opening paragraph on Rand.)

Martin:
"I have read some reviews of "The Fountainhead" however and a lot of them refer to this Roark character as a rapist. Is this true? How is a rapist an "embodiment of a perfect man"?"

So, Martin, instead of going to read the FOUNTAINHEAD, or FEMINIST INTERPRETATIONS, you decide to flame, forcing me into subjecting unwitting Solo readers into a crash course of Randian "rape scenes".

Rand wrote of the FOUNTAINHEAD "rape scene" that if it was rape, it was by engraved invitation. (Of course, she abhorred actual rape.) In ATLAS, she writes of Dagny :
"the diamond band on the wrist of her naked arm gave her the most feminine of all aspects: the look of being chained."

Nathaniel Branden wrote that when Rand was asked why she "used such a word as 'surrender,' [she]answered that one should look at human anatomy and the nature of sexual intercourse. She would have agreed that...woman is contoured for invasion..." Branden relates Rand saying man was superior to women, which she qualified by saying "In spiritual or intellectual matters the sexes are equal. But man is bigger, stronger, faster...Don't you understand..." she implored, " that a truly strong woman wants to see man as stronger? Certainly her man." When Branden asked why, she replied, "for the pleasure of surrendering...A woman can't do this with a man she doesn't look up to. Be honest. You understand me perfectly." And she said she would defend her position philosophically." THIS IS THE BRUNHILDE principle.
So I think the point is made that the "fascism" referred to is man's physical domination of woman defended by Rand and exalted by women like Sylvia Plath. Whether or not that makes them 'traitors to their own sex' is explored by other critics in FEMINIST INTERPRETATIONS, which is why I referred to it.
But, Martin, since you feel you don't have to do your homework (and I so generously provided you with Cliff Notes), I will now address your speculations (and for the benefit of anyone else who cares to jump to unobjective conclusions) on my psychology, which you saw fit to compare to Nietzsche's "self hate." I, myself, am not a woman hater, and having grown up watching my mother beat by my stepfather to the verge of death, would throttle any man who dared to lay a finger on a woman. And, as a homosexual, I really have no need to keep women in their place. Now, here's the best part: As a homosexual who prefers the submissive role in a man on man wrestling match, winner take all, I will wrestle with all my might, while hoping that I will be pinned. And like it. Even men adore a fascist, it seems.




(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/31, 9:03pm)



(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/31, 9:56pm)

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/31, 9:57pm)


Post 53

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, Joe, now I understand where you are coming from.  Thank you for taking the time to explain the derivation of the quote.

I completely agree with Rand's concept of female surrender, but I would never describe it in fascist terms, which is why I found the Plath quote somewhat alarming.  I was also not aware of the Brunhilde principle, and look forward to researching more about it.

The "chained" quote is one of my favorites in ATLAS, and I love that Rand had the courage to write such things.

Thanks again, Joe.


Post 54

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 8:59pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Jennifer, and yes, I caught the humour in your post. I thought our cross postings were like an O.Henry moment.

My half-educated guess is that Sylvia Plath used the term "fascist" either to be provacative, or as a reflection of her time period. Don't know much about her myself, so it's only a guess. As long as she didn't say 'Islamo-fascist.';)

Um, I'll stop now.

Post 55

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 11:51pmSanction this postReply
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Forgive me,

                     but this courtesan has just noticed this thread and some subjects very close to her and cannot help speak a bit in some especial (if somewhat troubled) surety.

On intelligence and women.  Sadly, for whatever the cause, this is simply factually true.  In my former life as a heterosexual guy before transitioning, I remember in lancing pains of agony that I saw very few women of intelligence; at the time, my Enlightenment universalism just stared in confusion.  I remember reading of the concept of the courtesan, and by economic the rarity (scarcity) of a combination of intelligence and sexuality in females, and thinking with extreme unease that our society, with all of its relative freedom for talent, is little different than than of ancient Athens or Sidon in this regard... the reason I regard Jennifer's claim as proven, ultimate causes aside, is simply my own empiricism.  When I found myself in an attractive female body, with, at least by American standards, an extremely good education, it did occur to me the existence of a crying demand for intelligent sex partners among men of intelligence; as I learn more as a courtesan, I am more and more convinced I have read the market correctly.  Simply put, economics proves intelligent female companionship is not in great supply.

Why this is complicated.  I'm a feminist and do not believe in 'female values', in politics or in sex.  I do not believe females are less intelligent than men, nor do I accept the positivist principles of our society's science that try to draw narrow bell curves and such.  Nevertheless, the experience of being in a female body had shown vividly how different the experienced sensations are, sexuality being very central to this.  This isn't a question of free will, but one free choice in different situations, different economies of physical and emotional sensation.  This matters, and I am more and more uncomfortably drawn to the conclusions that the typical male/female investments in intelligence, sexuality, achievement, sentiment, empathy make a lot of sense.

I suspect masculinity and feminity could be best be defines as something like, the two most common patterns in ways of living that translate from the two most common patterns of inner and outer sensory biological rewards.  I can't say this is a myth.  What I can say is that this equilibrium is a balance of all known passions of given or found value, and the biologic ones are only part of this; if you discover a passion in philosophy (which BTW, doesn't work ideally with either the common male or female settings), it's worth not using as much the more innate rewards.  And this balance changes with every change in social technology, social and political structure, individual knowledge, experience, and inspiration.  I seriously think that our basic model of sexual 'drives' is a disaster; I think a better metaphor would be that our biology provides an echo chamber; it does not determine what notes we sing, it does not teach us songs, it can be changed, but does determine if all else is constant which notes come back clearly and beautifully.

As for what the particular echo chambers are like and the consequences thereof, I have my suspicions, but I prefer to reserve my intuitions; partially because they approach the wisdom of my religious traditions, and I do not trust claims to truth from such a source... but also because the answers I hesitate to conclude will not be likely be any side of this society.  My views probably end up somewhere between Rand and Camille Paglia, or Camille Paglia's sources....

Which brings to the the Brunnhilde Principle.  Oh dear, oh dear.  Here I am very torn.  On the one hand, I know too many innumerable varieties of exceptions to hold to any strong Principle here intellectually; I know people who are comfortably sexually androgynous, bisexuals who respond the same, top or bottom, to women and men, dominatrixes, receptive men, lesbians who wear strap ons, etc. etc.  I know people who have changed their desires in this regard, and transgenders come out as every possible combination of desires here.  Professionally, the most obvious counter to the Brunnhilde Principle is the large market for pro-domme services; an incredible amount of men are dying, just once in their life, to let go, lose responsibility, and become the object, not subject of intentions.  And here, as someone who has had it both ways, I can say that society generally puts upon women a serious price for taking control in social and sexual affairs, while exacting men a severe price both in demanding the taking of control and setting them up for disaster upon failure; the psyches here I do think are the product of patriarchy, or specifically the synthesis of patriarchy, atomism, a functionalist society such as America's which sidelines art, and a feminism that had both cynically tried and been coopted to control men rather than liberating them along with women.  So I think a large part of male/female dominance/submission (let's call things by their real names, shall we?) lies in cultural constraints.

But beyond that.. again, I hesitate in discomfort on what to say.  I know that personally, in a body kept drenched in female hormones, and an incomplete one at that, my own sexuality has moved from troubled/conflicted to the very stereotype of the sexualized version of femininity.  I hesitate... philosophy and politics dissent from my emotions here, but the truth is I hear a phrase as 'contoured for invasion' and... and I have to throw myself in the bedroom and practise my talents.... oh, Hell, I wish I was up to working!  BRB!

OK, anyway.

Yes.  I can't believe in my mind that there is something essentially female in "the diamond band on the wrist of her naked arm gave her the most feminine of all aspects: the look of being chained."  But such describes my own desires; indeed, Rand's fiction contains captivating erotic symbols that drive me mad in precisely this way... I will simply say here than I understand completely about the fur coat and the platinum gown.  'Contoured for invasion' does seem to be what my incomplete transgendered body falls towards, hard, though it certainly not an expression of powerlessness, even if that is part of the experience.  Well, I will simply say that Jennifer has likened a potential relationship with her with having a woman in a harem; within a year, I probably will have spent time in one.

Nevertheless, this is all very politically disturbing, not in terms of libertarianism, but in terms of the fact that an ideal erotic social context of naturally skewed sexual pluralism is not on the table.  Socially, the alternatives are a tolerant modernity, unisexual by default, and a hypocritical patriarchy which exacts a very steep price for sexual 'immorality'.  If the truth is that there are all kinds of beautiful erotic exceptions, that a conscious person can change their sexuality, but without exceptional effort masculine and feminine sexual psychologies will exist as broad default clusters... well, the result is that the most benevolent forms of patriarchy are very sexually rewarding to those on its good side and who get a good deal, whereas modernity demands as the price of peace and toleration that sexual enthusiasm be kept down below certain level, and marginalizes the rest.  Of course, following Strauss, this was what the Enlightenment consciously did to spiritual and ethical passion, and vs. the locked society of status, modernity wins in my book with no contest.

But as a defender of the Enlightenment, I find it very disturbing that I found a niche where I play mostly by premodern rules, and pay mostly premodern prices... and in a situation where you can choose your ideal premodernity, I am happier living an as anachronistic woman than a liberal, universal person.  i stress I would be undoubtably dead if I had not had the choice (and economics and technology) that modernity makes possible.  It's much like fantasy fiction writers who glamourize premodern cultures... they kind of forget about the slavery and plagues and forced childbirth, drudgery, poverty and war.  But it's easy to say all that; sometimes it is harder to admit when reading Tolkien that such stories do present real good and longings today's world sometimes in fact does lack or undervalue.

As a final note, on Sylvia Plath.  The context of 'every woman adores a fascist' is meant to be extremely troubling; the context is her speaker blurring images her emotional wounds from her father and her husband with scenes from the eastern Nazi concentration camps, creating an image of an emotionally mutilating patriarch against which, helpless and Medea-like, she vents her fury, which hitting a social brick war turns to suicide.  The line is meant to capture her feeling of sexualized dependency along with contempt for herself and revulsion at her father/husband/Nazi for inspiring such feelings; her generalization is her (not unreasonable) equation of her situation with the same psychosexual complex in women generally.  I don't think it matters in the context of the poetry whether these feelings are thought of as essential or not; the point is that they are there and they are the state of revulsed desire she finds inseparable from herself, and by extension a magnified society written ever in the same script.

Oh dear, I confess I am myself attracted to Plath's poetry.  And Shelley and Blake, if that will shut up the malevolent universe activities commitee.

Dying is an art,
like everything else
I do it exceptionally well
I do it so it feels like Hell
I do it so it feels real.

I am Lady Lazarus,
back from the dead
I rise from the ash
in my red hair.
and I eat men like air.
                           ("Lady Lazarus", Sylvia Plath)

my regards,

Jeanine Shiris Ring  ))(*)((

P.S. apologies for not replying to some private email messages from members of this forum; I have been simply horrible with correspondence this week.  Mea culpa.
 

(Edited by Jeanine Ring on 11/01, 12:01am)


Post 56

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 11:52pmSanction this postReply
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(double post deleted)
(Edited by Jeanine Ring on 10/31, 11:53pm)


Post 57

Monday, November 1, 2004 - 4:08amSanction this postReply
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Joe, just wanted to let you know I caught your note and will check out the Jung stuff when time permits. Thanks for the recommendations.

Post 58

Monday, November 1, 2004 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Lance, hope you find it worthwhile!

Post 59

Monday, November 1, 2004 - 6:23amSanction this postReply
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"So, Martin, instead of going to read the FOUNTAINHEAD, or FEMINIST INTERPRETATIONS, you decide to flame, forcing me into subjecting unwitting Solo readers into a crash course of Randian "rape scenes""

EXACTLY... it works doesn't it!

Actually I am just starting to read the FountainHead.. as i noted above i am trudging my way through all of Rands works.

I just finished We Are The Living. The Fountainhead is next.

Sorry to be so offensive Joe - but I hate it when instead of answering a reasonable question people just make some obscure reference. ... and lets face it you made that quote to get a reaction. You got it. So no need to complain!

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