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Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 6:56amSanction this postReply
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Interesting article, Dr Machan. There is a dilemma for me, in explaining choice, initiative, and free will in a materialistic or naturalistic world view.

Mental events dont just happen, or arent just caused, they are *initiated* sometimes. We humans are so much more complicated than can be explained.

I am more aware of these issues today (though I cant explain them yet) as my father begins to fade away with the onset of alzheimers.

John

Post 1

Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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Because common sense tells many people that they have free will and there are moral responsibilities they need to fulfill. They have a well enough grasp that they could well neglect these (which is when they may be said to be acting irresponsibly and can be blamed for this), or fulfill them in exemplary fashion (which is when they deserve praise). When secular thinkers deny this, along with denying some alleged supernatural dimension, they easily alienate ordinary folks from secularism. Few will go along at the price they think they have to pay, namely, to abandon their common sense, that essentially gets them through their lives with a good deal of success. So they remain linked to supernaturalism where they think free will and morality have to be located.

But if they are aware that embracing secular ideas does not need to mean giving up on their common sense beliefs in free will and moral responsibility, they could well give the secular option more attention. And they indeed should.
Mr. Machan, that is a very good point.  It shows that there can be, in some cases, a semi-rational motivation behind the way some people cling to religion. This in turn suggests more effective ways of getting people to re-think their dedication to religion.


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Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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One view of "materialism" is that consciousness cannot exist without a material foundation -- that there can be no such thing as a conscious "substance" independent of matter -- because consciousness requires a brain, sense organs and a central nervous system. Lacking these material preconditions, it would not exist. To say, therefore, that consciousness exists and that it is real is not to say that it is non-material. Consciousness is necessarily material, because it is an attribute of a certain configuration of matter. In other words, it is a property of matter. In that respect, one could say that matter is "the only thing" that exists, in that without matter, nothing else would.


Post 3

Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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Because common sense tells many people that they have free will and there are moral responsibilities they need to fulfill. They have a well enough grasp that they could well neglect these (which is when they may be said to be acting irresponsibly and can be blamed for this), or fulfill them in exemplary fashion (which is when they deserve praise).

Blame from whom? Praise from whom?

From adults to children is one thing. But what of from among adults, as peers?

We can appeal to 'common sense' and often do, without controversy. But often enough, with-- resulting in an endless mostly political struggle.

Without any agreement on the ethical basis for those 'moral responsibilities' this can easily be, simultaneously administered, blame from those we disagree with, and praise from those we agree with, as to the ethical basis involved.


If free association is free association, then ... we have to simply live with that plurality. In order to live in peace, we need to be free to live in tribes with which we agree, as to the ethical basis for those 'moral responsibilities.' That implies, a plurality of tribes.

And, there is the start of endless conflict, between tribes. There is the war between freedom and totalitarianism. It is not sufficient that Tribe A embraces the concept of 'free association' if Tribe B does not, and is endlessly demanding of Tribe A to relinquish its ethics in favor of their own.

There is no equivalency between the two tribes view. Tribe A adheres to relationships between adults as peers based only on free association. Tribe B enforces forced association, and justifies that based on its ethical foundations, even to the point of attacking Tribe A, which it awards itself 'moral obligation' points for carrying out that act of aggression. Tribe B justifies its aggression based on its alternative ethical basis. It's actions, it believes, are justified.

The conflict between these alternative Tribes, they claim, is a simple matter of differing opinions, a disagreement over ethics. In their view, a failure to accede to association by force is a crime, punishable by greater force.

Your life belongs to you: line up for Tribe A.

Your life belongs to the tribe: line up for Tribe B, and get ready to launch a Holy War on Tribe A. Because the Union/Tribe is everything. Because the Herd is All knowing, All deserving, and All powerful... and always spoken for by the few, and what the Hell is this Tribe A running loose in our tidy tucked in world, providing an inconvenient counter-example?

They know it's Tyranny, but it is Tyranny dressed up as a really, really good cause: theirs.

Existential fear is the key. They fear a world based on free association, and are willing to void the human concepts of generosity, benevolence, charity, regard for our fellow -- that is, peer, equal, like in kind, sharer of the commons, sharer of the public roads, no matter where they are going -- man. Their existential fear, loathing, and hatred -- of those they increasingly depend on, and to the extent that they depend upon them -- leads them to pursue a model of forced association, where their role is not to ask if and when and where need arises, but to tell. To command. And having moved ever closer to that world, unwilling to recognize its failure, as every day that passes our economies look more and more like a giant middle finger raised at each other.

What else could they be, under a model of forced association?

Are we there yet?

The totalitarians will not see the argument in those terms. They can't, it is an impossibility for them. They will skate and dance and shuck and jive, twirl and spin, snicker and sigh.

Everything but let go of the existential terror that drives them.



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Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

Because common sense tells many people that they have free will and there are moral responsibilities they need to fulfill. They have a well enough grasp that they could well neglect these (which is when they may be said to be acting irresponsibly and can be blamed for this), or fulfill them in exemplary fashion (which is when they deserve praise).

Blame from whom? Praise from whom?

From adults to children is one thing. But what of from among adults, as peers?



By reference to objective justice. Man cannot escape having to pass judgments, so, we might as well learn to do it correctly.

Ed


Post 5

Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 5:41amSanction this postReply
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Ed:

I think appeals to objective justice often work, without controversy.

But I'm also convinced by Thomas Sowell's arguments in "A Conflict of Visions" that ultimately, there is no reconciliation between fundamentally different views of justice (process based vs. outcome based.)

And I fully agree with you(we could easily join Tribe A)that there is no such thing as outcome based justice. But that is the point; many in Tribe B do believe that there is such a thing as outcome based justice, do not accept common sense/objective analysis to dismiss it, and so, base their morality on that (in their mind convinced) ethical foundation.

It is the charter for their Holy War against Tribe A.

Tribe A calls their model 'free association' and calls Tribe B's model 'forced association.'

Tribe B calls their model 'compassion' and calls Tribe A's model 'greed.'

Tribe A says 'leave us alone to live in freedom to the greatest extent possible. Our lives belong first to us. We are free to voluntarily give that one and only life to whatever purpose we choose -- including mystical devotion to a God above us, "S"ociety, or whatever, but only as a consequence of free association.'

Tribe B says 'no.' Your life belongs to the Tribe first. We can't bear our existential terror at the thought that not enough of you will choose to serve God or "S"ociety or whatever the local tribal theocracy has declared as the tribal 'common good', and so, we will sell out freedom in a pancikef heartbeat and replace it with an obligation -- an obligation to implement our worldview for us -- at yourbirth. The Tribe will decide what the purpose of your life will be. That is, those speaking for the Tribe will decide. You are not even free to form a Tribe A orgainized under a competing model based on free association, that would be inconvenient for the folks we are trying to keep in line over here based on our compassion jive. You Tribe A-ers are all about greed/got mine/screw you, and when you angst about what is yours you are being crude, but when we angst about what is yours we are virtuous.

And so let the wars of endless conflict begin.

Post 6

Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

Tribe A calls their model 'free association' and calls Tribe B's model 'forced association.'

Tribe B calls their model 'compassion' and calls Tribe A's model 'greed.'

Okay, but words mean things. Alasdair MacIntyre did a good job of dealing with the logical or rational reconciliation of opposite views like these. Now, if you get a group who explicitly says "to hell with logic and rationality", then you've got war (and no other option but war). The trick is to get as close to the line as you can (try with all your might to change culture) before you have no other option but to cross the line and shoot the others dead (to die on your feet instead of resigning yourself to live on your knees).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/28, 11:00am)


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