RoR: Forum

Jason wrote: C’mon, Newberry, are you telling me you still don’t enjoy the Opera, Met Museum, Empire State Building, etc? They still exist and are frequented by many.

When you go to Carnegie Hall you’ll notice photos and memorabilia on the walls of past and present composers and “composers”. I particularly like the one of Milton Babbitt. He mentions how one of his concertos had its premiere at the Hall and he hopes that it will be performed there again someday. I think it’s clear who the audience is voting for as there are 100 repetitions of each Beethoven concertos for every Babbitt/Cage/TenuredProfX piece. Now, Michael, do you think Mohammad Atta saw a Merce ballet to "music" of Cage? Oh, that explains it!

The culture isn’t gone; it’s just not being augmented. And I share your sadness with regard to that fact.

Hi Jason,

Making generalizations about a culture is not one of the easier things to do and I don’t have the last word on it, just a perspective. Yes I have personal and profound joys with Beethoven, going to concerts at Carnegie Hall, opera at the Met and seeing Rembrandt at the Metropolitan. But buddy, that is the past. Open your eyes and see what the hell is going on in American, and English, contemporary fine art culture. I agree with Rand’s view and paraphrased view of Aristotle about art is about what ought to be. I even think that a culture’s contemporary art scene is the window at which we glimpse our future. Taking a look at today’s art magazines, contemporary museum exhibitions, New York Times Art Section, University Fine Art curriculums,—it is not a good sign and it is essentially American home bred and produced. Again coming from my perspective of one who lives in the arts American contemporary art culture is pathetic. And if the contemporary art world is important for a country’s culture/future than it is America’s Achilles’ heel.

Post 21

Monday, January 3, 2005 - 8:27pm

But Michael, it's my understanding that all the contemporary art fashions being entertained in America have been intellectually imported from Europe.

I could be wrong, but could you tell us which countries have a thriving art culture right now? It seems that fine art period is at an all-time low, and it's the few brilliant examples of pop-culture (mainly American) that are carrying the load.

Post 22

Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 6:53am

I think the situation is not unique to America. I suspect also that the situation is not unique to this time. Culture, including the art it produces and is sustained by, seems to shine brightest from far. Populist trash gets attention. The lone child who realizes that the Emperor wears nothing, is in reality a small percentage.

I know next to nothing about art and culture in its larger sense. In fact, Michael, thanks for answering some of my questions a month or so back, on another thread. In the *marketplace* it seems that what is beautiful and great, has been moved to the back aisle. That saddens me. But then I wonder, has it been any different, and is it different anywhere else?

John

Post 23

Friday, January 7, 2005 - 8:53am

Alec wrote: But Michael, it's my understanding that all the contemporary art fashions being entertained in America have been intellectually imported from Europe.

Hi Alec, I will in fact be learning a great deal about the intellectual ideas imported to America this week; Stephen Hicks is visiting me and we will hash out and outline the postmodern ideas and art works. America fully embraced Malivich, Duchamp, and de Kooning and Warhol, Pollock, Kline, Mc Carthy are American. They all broke with an integrated view of painting and cast aside essentials. The 20th Century art coming out of Europe could not quite let go of its heritage, which left art looking like a compromise between renaissance drawing and abstract design--from this point of view a total break with representational art and lead in to Postmodernism exploded off the world map from America. Add to that America is the supreme world power, its leading artists and art movements will by stealth, manipulation, or imposition dominates the world art scene as well.

I could be wrong, but could you tell us which countries have a thriving art culture right now? It seems that fine art period is at an all-time low, and it's the few brilliant examples of pop-culture (mainly American) that are carrying the load.

You bring up "pop-culture" as if it is or can be a substitute for fine/high art. I would be interested to hear your explanation for that. I would also be interested for you to site "brilliant examples of pop-culture".

Off the top of my head, not about brilliant but about leading popular cultural design, I can think of: sleaze and grunge clothes of pop and rap singers, the terrible proportions and sheer aggressiveness of car design of Cadillac and other American car manufactures; senseless architectural designs of Gehry; the generic gray sexless clothes of Gap; look in any international airport at the travelers all the people that look they have rolled out of bed in their pajamas/sweats are American—they sure as hell don’t recall the sleek and stylish look of the passengers in PanAm’s heyday.

My point posting on this thread, apologies to Tibor for not keeping on his track, is that America’s art culture is disturbed and I find that particularly scary because life imitates art. In real life how many people do you know that have aggressive behavior, take Prozac, dress badly, have little attention span, don’t know what they want, drone on about meaningless things, and whine? It’s all there in contemporary art museums.

Its not that there is nothing but hopelessness out there, there are brilliant exceptions And it’s the high/fine art that influences all the rest in the same way that philosophy influences all walks of life. So if you want to see were we heading spiritually look at what is going on the contemporary art museums, leading writers, contemporary music festivals, Hollywood, and major architectural buildings. It’s important because that all translates into your quality of life, if great art is not in the mainstream you’ve got nothing but the shit a culture offers you.

Newberry

Post 24

Friday, January 7, 2005 - 12:56pm

For some reason I am reminded of this quote,

"Art is the indespensible medium for the communication of a moral idea. " - Ayn Rand

George

Post 25

Friday, January 7, 2005 - 1:15pm

Michael,

I did not say that pop-culture art can be a complete substitute for fine art. That's kind of like saying that painting can be a substitute for literature. No. But the high artistic concepts are shared by all the arts: entertainment, satire, emotional depiction, etc. So, for example: if the literature of a period is failing to fill the need of the people for entertainment, they get that entertainment from viewing paintings. Obviously, it's a different type of entertainment (and emotional depiction, etc.), and painting cannot do what literature can, but it is a fulfillment of the same need.

That's what I meant by "carrying the load." We still need fine art and are worse off for the lack of it.

As for brilliant examples of contemporary pop-culture? The Simpsons, in my view, is the most brilliant comedic-satirical achievement of all time. I could give you a more technical explanation as to why (fans of the show already know). Just a few months ago, an episode of Southpark about Walmart was a perfectly-executed, high-minded political satire. It was as if a humorous Ayn Rand had written it.

Other examples include: any (non-indy) great film you can think of from the last 50 years. The Great American Songbook. The beautiful pop-music periods of the 1940s and late 60s to early 70s. Ray Charles.

On a different note, I think you may be attributing too much influence to the fine art of today. One of the consequences of its horridness is its complete lack of significance to most Americans. I know there is an inevitable crossover. But there is also a stark divide between the Humanities department sensibility and the American sensibility, which is still observably ambitious, optimistic, and happy. I see it all around me. It is that sensibility which is ridiculed by Europeans, whose own sensibility is dormant, as they sit at their little coffee tables outside the Brasseries and watch the world go by, leaving them in the dust. It is also that sensibility which is ridiculed and passionately opposed by the contemporary artists in America.

Post 26

Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 8:33am

Actually, I’m sympathetic to Newberry’s analysis and I'll skip any nitpicking over minor differences. Michael, your basic thrust is right on! You raise valid and important concerns about current art and the soul of our civilization. While I was thinking of the great legacy of art and music available to those of us who merely consume art. As a creator of art, I imagine it must be particularly hard at times when you look around and see what is championed as our highest art.

Post 27

Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 1:25pm