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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 3:40amSanction this postReply
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Prof. Seddon,

Why did this question stun Prof.Gotthelf?  Isn't this how Objectivists believe concepts are formed?


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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 4:30amSanction this postReply
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Neil,

I guess defending a theory amongst informed experts is much harder than browbeating it into (or using verbal legerdemain to sell it to) followers. 


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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 5:04amSanction this postReply
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Next Level,

I've always wondered what evidence there is that the mind forms concepts the way Rand said (measurement ommission).  Maybe that's what Prof. Pasnau was getting at.


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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 7:09amSanction this postReply
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Neil,

I agree, but when I once asked an Objectivist that, he asked me why I cared about how people actually formed concepts when Rand had shown the right way (or something to that effect).

I guess that somewhere in my subconscious, there has always been a desire to learn how things are as opposed to how things are supposed to be.

And there is also the retort:"How do you think concepts are formed?"  

This, of course, will fail to impress philosophers who have taken courses on the nature of perception and the mind at some point in their careers and some people who probably did PhD theses on such subjects.  Some of them will be familiar with the standard objections to theories like Rand's with which laymen will have little acquaintance.

But maybe Gotthelf was stunned because he found Rand's theory self-evident.  I doubt it though.


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Post 4

Friday, December 31, 2004 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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Folks,

Regarding concepts, David Kelley published an article years ago substantiating the Objectivist theory of concept formation.  He referred to numerous studies suggesting that humans do indeed form concepts by measurement omission.  Unfortunately, philosophical journals, unlike scientific ones, do not usually involve a rigorous "peer review" before publishing articles.  I asked Dr. Kelley what sort of response the article got and gathered that it got little to none either positive or negative.

You can order a copy of the article here:

http://www.objectivismstore.com/p-45-theory-of-abstraction.aspx


Luke Setzer


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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 8:12amSanction this postReply
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Next Level,

There are places in ITO where Rand appears to argue that her theory of concept formation simply shows that our concepts can ultimately be traced back to "perceptual reality." 

On the other hand, there are places in ITO where Rand is pretty clearly arguing that she is demonstrating how the mind operates.

If the contention is that Rand has shown that there is a rational basis for our concepts, then perhaps she was on to something, but Objectivists generally claim much more than that.

I believe that David Kelley wrote a scholarly paper on Rand's view of concepts and also Binswanger has a tape series on this issue.  Does anyone know if these objections/questions have ever been adressed by Objectivists in print?


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Post 6

Friday, December 31, 2004 - 8:49amSanction this postReply
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I mentioned in a previous post that I have a list of posters that I don't read. One person I put on this list a while ago is Next Level, right after he came out in favor of involuntary servitude (the draft).

But, today, in a moment of weakness, I couldn't help but read what he had to say about Fred's comments on the Ayn Rand Society meeting. (It's like driving by a terrible accident and not being able to look away.)

In response to the statement that a couple of Objectivist philosophers (Gotthelf and Rasmussen) didn't respond to a question about concept formation, Next said:

I guess defending a theory amongst informed experts is much harder than browbeating it into (or using verbal legerdemain to sell it to) followers. 

It's a new year coming up. One of my New Year's resolutions is not to suffer fools. I hope I don't weaken again.

Thanks,
Glenn

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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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I think anyone who, like Glenn, objects to this or that view of mine and is sure that I am wrong or morally inconsistent or depraved or some other manner of evil should either have the honesty to defend his view, or keep silent.

I was asked a question, which was whether I could conceive of any circumstance under which I believed that a military draft could be morally justified. 

I answered yes, based on the principle that it can be a good thing to require/force a person to do something which is in his personal or social interests which he would not do, usually for the short term.  Like all other principles, this one is situation-specific and can be debated, and some libertarians deny its validity outright, but that I am supporting "involuntary servitude" for applying it to the military draft is nonsense. 

Maybe there are alternative ways of resolving such problems that Glenn would prefer, and which might be objectively better, and if I heard them and his arguments for or against them, surely, nothing stops me from agreeing or disagreeing with him.

However, defending the view that all forms of military draft amount to "involuntary servitude", including those currently in place in Israel and Switzerland, would require some intellectual honesty and actually having read some work on how the individual relates to the society and vice versa in a way that goes beyond naive individualism.

I can understand why a person would not be interested in such a discussion just as much as I am unwilling to argue my preference for Pachelbel's "Canon" to many other musical pieces to my friends, my preference being my own and not subject to serious debate.  But if a person wants to assert that his claims are rational, and mine irrational, and not even make a case for his claims, fine.  Thankfully, I know better than to take such people seriously these days.


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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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Neil,

If the contention is that Rand has shown that there is a rational basis for our concepts, then perhaps she was on to something, but Objectivists generally claim much more than that.
Yes, they do claim more than that. 

I'm not sure in what sense you use the word "rational", but while Rand's practical advice on how to think can be intellectually stimulating and correct, it is not clear from her writings who she was arguing against and why (who thought that concepts had no "rational" basis). It is easy to lump whole groups of philosophers together and excoriate them, but there are subtle differences in every philosopher's thought, so it is always best to quote who you are dealing with and explain what you think is wrong.

Of course, Rand was under no obligation to act like an academic philosopher, but the limitations of her approach are clear.

I believe that David Kelley wrote a scholarly paper on Rand's view of concepts and also Binswanger has a tape series on this issue.  Does anyone know if these objections/questions have ever been adressed by Objectivists in print?
Well, not to my knowledge.  Kelley would be a far more reliable source for serious objections than Binswanger.  However, concept formation is probably being handled more seriously by psychologists and linguists these days, because the "how" and "why" questions are best answered by comparing and contrasting the activities of different minds based on similarities and differences in mental and neurological activity.


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Post 9

Friday, December 31, 2004 - 5:36amSanction this postReply
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The speaker was Douglas B. Rasmussen, with a commentary by Robert Pasnau, who asked one question of Rasmussen that stunned the audience, to wit: “Do any of you gain concepts by measurement omission?” The silence was rather deafening. Even Allan, who usually has an answer for all the tough questions, remained silent.

Well, Fred, I think there is a good explanation for that, which I gave at the TOC Advanced Seminar about 6 months ago. For those interested, the text of the paper is on TOC's website.
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/events/advsem04/seminars-advpart.asp


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Post 10

Friday, December 31, 2004 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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I think the awkward pause merely indicates disorientation at a question that had never been considered because it is based on a false premise about the relation of narrow science to the widest (philosophy), and their respective necessary methods.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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I.N. Rand,

Could you please explain what the false premise behind the question is?


Post 12

Friday, December 31, 2004 - 4:41pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

I like your paper.  Similar objections have been lodged by other critics of Rand's theory of measurement omission before, but since the other objections are not as sympathetically worded as yours, I think yours would be a good one for an Objectivist to read.

I do feel a bit sorry for the psychophysicists though because somewhere in my gut (don't take that too literally), I think that they are right.

I think that material aspects of the brain might be well correlated with some aspects of the ordinal valuations that seem highly subjective at this time.  I lack anything approaching a serious proof. However, the translation of colors to wavelengths in Physics (as Rand mentioned), and the fact that certain aspects of the Brain and Body have been well correlated with psychic phenomena like the Mind make it plausible, even if not possible or valid at this time.  Even the subjective differences might have a material basis.  I guess that I'm partly ideologically motivated by my materialism/physicalism.

So in a sense, I think Rand was right and that it will come down to measurement in the end.  But I think that my position takes similarities and differences as ultimately numerical (and structural) variations of the fundamental constituents of matter.


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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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What's good about Pasnau's question is the doors it opens. To use a term from computer systems, it's a "realtime" (or at least real, everyday, practical world) question. Even if you think the theory of measurement omission is valid (as I do), epistemologists and psychologist need to start to think about the following questions:

1. When was the last time I formed a new concept?
2A. Is every concept formed in the same way?
2B. How many and which concepts are formed afresh by M.O. (as opposed to inferred or spun off from others, deduced, induced, etc.)?
3. Do we get most of our concepts by forming them ourselves, or secondhand from other people (books, parents, teachers)?
4. Is there a developmental stage at which we do most of our original concept formation (early childhood prior to formal schooling, for example)?

Pasnau's question reminds us to tie theory to everyday practice.

--Philip Coates

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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 7:27pmSanction this postReply
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The reason is that academic philosophers for the most part are not programmers. For those who are, the question becomes, "When was the last time you specified an Object Class?" One does that dozens, sometimes hundreds of times a year...

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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 7:40pmSanction this postReply
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I saw a television promotion of the forthcoming movie White Noise starring Michael Keaton.  A Google search yielded this site on recordings of the paranormal:

http://aaevp.com/conferences/aaevp_conference_results.htm

What appears to me as mere mixed blotches of light and dark evidently strike some people as images of faces and bodies of "ghosts."  This pattern recognition aspect of the brain begs questions about when those patterns actually reflect objects "out there" versus when they do not.  Internal volitional processes of logic ruled by the Objectivist metaphysical axioms plainly need to intervene to prevent dangerous self-delusions.


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Friday, December 31, 2004 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

No one denies that the mind classifies entities on the basis of similarities and differences.  Human beings might even be naturally biased to have an essentialist view of concepts.  The question is whether the "measurement omission" part of Rand's view of concept formation is contrived or not.

Luther,

That was hilarious.  However, I guess that a vivid imagination must have some side effects.

MERRY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE!


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Post 17

Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 2:32amSanction this postReply
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Seddon wrote: "Robert Pasnau ... asked one question of Rasmussen that stunned the audience, to wit: “Do any of you gain concepts by measurement omission?” The silence was rather deafening. Even Allan, who usually has an answer for all the tough questions, remained silent." Well, I was in the audience and wasn't stunned, nor did anyone else seem stunned. Gotthelf couldn't have responded since when Pasnau asked the question, it was his turn to continue with his comments and others weren't supposed to just jump in to answer what was clearly a rhetorical -- and mainly humorous -- question from someone who admitted that all he knows of Ayn Rand's views is what he learned from Rasmussen's paper which covered but one issue, namely, the similarities and differences between Rand's and Aquinas's views on universals.  (BTW, Kelley wrote an entire book, based on his Princeton University PhD dissertation, which was completed under the chairmanship of Richard Rorty, The Evidence of the Senses [LSU Press, ????]. By now innumerable students of Ayn Rand have entered the discipline of philosophy and have undergone the drill that this entails, so hardly any of them would find the objections and questions addressed to Rand's position "stunning." Gotthelf's work in these and related areas of philosophy, as that of many other philosophrs in the audience who had sympathies for Rand's position, pretty much prepares someone for the kind of exchanges that go on at these sessions. We are all pretty well prepped, as indeed was Rand, who deliberately surrounded herself with philosophy professors as she prepared her work on concept formation. But maybe we need to give Seddon some literary license -- what's a story without a little embellishment?)
         Also, Rand didn't believe that we "gain concepts by measurement omission" but that when we form concepts (notice the active verb in the last formulation versus passive one in the first)--e. g., that of "apple"--what we retain in mind is not the specifics of some particular apple but what apples are "for the most part" (Aristotle). This is why when I say to someone on the phone 16 thousand miles away that "I am holding an apple in my hand," I can be clearly understood without having to give a full description of my hands, holding, or some apple.

(Edited by Machan on 1/01, 2:43am)

(Edited by Machan on 1/01, 6:19am)

(Edited by Machan on 1/01, 6:26am)


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Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
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Luther wrote:
Regarding concepts, David Kelley published an article years ago substantiating the Objectivist theory of concept formation.  He referred to numerous studies suggesting that humans do indeed form concepts by measurement omission.  Unfortunately, philosophical journals, unlike scientific ones, do not usually involve a rigorous "peer review" before publishing articles.  I asked Dr. Kelley what sort of response the article got and gathered that it got little to none either positive or negative.
I read the paper Dr. Rasmussen's presented at the Ayn Rand Society's meeting (the title is "Rand and Aquinas on the Problem of Universals").  Rasmussen refers to Kelley's article "A Theory of Abstraction" in note 20, following the statement "As Rand observes, 'similarity, when analyzed, amounts to measurement-mission'", as follows 
David Kelley expresses Rand's idea well when he states that cognitively a concept allows us to separate the way in which two objects are the same from the way in which they are different (even though they are the same and different in the same respect). It does so, not because attention has been drawn to any distinction within the thing itself, but because attention is capable of distinguishing two ways of regarding an object in a context of its quantitative relationship to other objects. The difference is perceived as a specific quantitative relation, the identity as the fact of mutual commensurability.  In ignoring the difference between two determinate characteristics, we do not ignore the characteristics themselves (which would leave nothing), or their determinacy, or any "determining note." We ignore their quantitative relations to each other. ("A Theory of Abstraction," p. 24, a reprint originally published in Cognition and Brain Theory 7.3 & 7.4 (Summer/Fall 1984): 329:357
It appears that Kelley's article finally received some attention.  


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Post 19

Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
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The story Fred Seddon told in his article about what happened in Boston with Rasmussen, Gotthelf, etc. is total different from Tibor Machan's facts and context.
But I think it explains were Fred gets his "what Kant really meant and everybody is wrong about him" stories from.


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