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Post 0

Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 1:16amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for posting this article Luther.

I don't deny that the era of the sexual revolution has had some bad social consequences, but I think that those consequences are largely the result of an attitude of irresponsibility rather than sexual "liberation" in and of itself. As I see it, society broke away from the in a sense repressive culture that expected abstinence followed by lifelong marriage but people moved too far in the other direction, separating sex from any kind of value judgement.

The article contrasts lifelong monogamy on the one hand with total promiscuity on the other, but this strikes me as a false alternative. Surely one can have a number of romantic and  sexual relationships in a lifetime while still maintaining a responsible attitude and seeking out worthy partners rather than irresponsibly sleeping around. In short I would agree that "as long as two people [love] each other, a sexual relationship [is] morally justified." Provided that there is mutual trust and acceptance of the situation, I would even suggest that so-called "friends with benefits" arrangements might be appropriate in certain contexts (I assume this is basically what Mr Hart meant by "sex with affection"?).

Ideally of course everyone will eventually meet someone with whom they wish to spend the rest of their lives, and at that point some form of civil marriage or other long term arrangement is certainly appropriate. But I don't belive that deliberate abstinence (as opposed to not having a worthy/willing partner at a specific period of time) is desirable. It might even be argued that many people will only really be sure they have met the right person if they have experience of other relationship prior to this(that said though, I have heard of a number of instances where an individual's first serious relationship has led to lifelong happy marriage, and that's certainly not something I would scoff at).

MH


Post 1

Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 1:44amSanction this postReply
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I had a chuckle when I posted this one. Shades of a certain phunny phellow who used to intrinsicise on this board. I'm sure Luke by now knows that it's bad procedure to contrive one's reasoning to lead to a pre-determined conclusion, as he admitted doing in this old article. I wonder if he's totally shaken off the ethic he was brought up in, though? As you say, MH, the alternatives offered—life-long monogamy or wanton promiscuity—add up to yet another phony dichotomy. I'll be interested in Luke's own retrospective comments. :-)

Linz

Post 2

Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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Linz and Matthew,

Thank you for your replies.  The windy discussion in the General Forum about sexual responsibility regarding paternity prompted me to snap my archives disk into my computer and retrieve this old jewel for posting and discussion.

Regarding the false dichotomy, I agree in hindsight with your assessment.  I have an article in work called "The Hedonists, the Puritan and Me" in which I will discuss my second co-op term with NASA and the three other young men with whom I shared a two bedroom condominium.  I shared a room with a very straight laced Mormon who spent 30 minutes each morning engaged in intensive study of the Bible and the Book of Mormon.  The other two parties who shared the other room literally spent every single night at local bars drinking and womanizing.  I spent the entire semester wondering where I fit on this scale and never really saw "third alternatives" until I discovered Ayn Rand two years later.

Linz, your comment regarding "rigging the conclusion" also stands correct.  "Inductive reasoning?  What is that?" would have been my response at the time.  I will tell you that I frequently got headaches trying to reason my way through either the Christian dogma or the hedonistic dogma.  I still cannot believe I completed a university Bachelor of Science degree with no formal training in reasoning as an art.  I took a logic course from the philosophy department my freshman year in college as an elective and found it seriously wanting.  I had expected the earthly equivalent of Mr. Spock as an instructor, but it turned out mainly to aim at teaching computer engineers how to construct truth tables.  Argh!

To get myself up to speed on the latest developments regarding sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), I located this Planned Parenthood site which offers some eye-opening statistics:

http://www.ppnyc.org/facts/facts/stds.html
 
I also glanced through the latest issue of Seventeen magazine while in the checkout line of a local retailer.  A cover story suggested an article inside explaining to girls how to avoid the STD that most sexually active women contract.  The article stated that 80% of sexually active women eventually contract the human papilloma virus (HPV) and included a rather shocking photograph of a woman's genitals riddled with HPV warts -- ouch!  Some of these STDs can also transmit by heavy kissing.

I think I will stay married and monogamous!

My article implicitly holds physical and financial health as the highest values while completely disregarding other values and needs such as pleasure, intimacy, variety and so forth.  These profound psychological needs that give many people their motives for living in the first place need satisfaction in ways that minimize risk to their long term well being.

I hope this article will provoke thoughtful discussion regarding how one can maximize one's values over one's lifetime while minimizing their commensurate risks.

Given the rampant proliferation of STDs, their contraction appears to have become a "norm."  I challenge the right mindedness of that expectation.  We need an Objectivist treatise on this crucial aspect of human life that accounts for all the facts.

Finally, in defense of those who choose the lifelong monogamy path described against those who claim that people need prior training from experienced lovers, I will say that this educational video can prove useful to the former:

http://www.asseenontv.com/prod-pages/sexual_positions_for_lovers.html

(Edited by Luther Setzer on 3/05, 11:57am)


Post 3

Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
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The last time I expressed my views of sex in public, a woman at the next dinner table fainted and the waiter followed me for three days.

Post 4

Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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James, please, let's hear it!

Post 5

Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 11:41pmSanction this postReply
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Oh yes, James, do tell!  I'd be interested to know if that waiter ever caught you, too!

Jason


Post 6

Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 2:21amSanction this postReply
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>>The last time I expressed my views of sex in public, a woman at the next dinner table fainted and the waiter followed me for three days.

Not surprising, James - many people find the idea of sex in public disturbing. 

:) :)



Post 7

Monday, March 7, 2005 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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God, I love this place!
Hong - I refer you to my authorized biography, "It Only Hurt The First Twelve Times", still searching for a publisher.
Jason- the waiter wrote the biography.
Jonathan- with your narrow view on the potential for possible places to gather, I suggest that you skip the biography when it is published.

Post 8

Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 8:00amSanction this postReply
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Thank you Luke for posting this article. I thank also the people who have responded to it.

I would surely have some serious things to say on this topic due to my personal experience. I am not yet well enough, however, to compose such a participation in this discussion. I have been in the hospital from March 4 to last evening which was March 9.

Luke, I have enjoyed gradually getting to know your ideas through your posts on SOLO. I saw in some biographical notes on you that you had been a CO-OP student before joining NASA as a full-time employe. I too was a CO-OP student. I did that at the Electromotive Division of GM, which was in a suburb of Chicago. We made diesel-electric locomotives from scratch. It was so marvelous.

I'm sorry to digress as I did just now, but my energy to communicate is so limited these days that I decided on the spot to hitch, right on this message, this information I've been wanting to share with with you such a long time. I hope that I will be able to meet you in person soon. Perhaps that will be at the TOC summer seminar this coming July. I have high hopes.

Warm Regards,

Stephen


Post 9

Saturday, March 8, 2008 - 6:38amSanction this postReply
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I feel obligated to any current readers of this article and thread to say that my learnings since writing this article in 1988, especially my viewing of Cathouse, have led me to retract its general "thrust" -- pun partially intended.  While the risks involved with multiple partners remain as real as I described, living the best life possible requires taking risks beyond the confining tradition of "first and only sexual partner for life no matter what" approach the article suggests.  I am not suggesting promiscuity or recklessness, but clearly to know oneself sexually may require many or perhaps most people to experiment sexually with more than one lover over time.  Everything I have read and learned since the advent of the Internet as well as the aforementioned television show suggests that one can do this with very little risk of disease or unwanted pregnancy when exercising due caution.

Once one locates a genuinely suitable soul mate based on this wide range of experience, then lifelong monogamy makes much more sense -- assuming, of course, that one discovers himself actually suitable for monogamous bonding, a questionable statement for some souls such as Dennis Hof, proprietor of the title subject of Cathouse.


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