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Post 20

Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
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I often find I agree with Robert when he concretizes and gives an example so I see what he is really talking about, but I disagree with some of his abstract formulations which I find too sweeping such as what he lumps under "evasion" and "moral perfection".

Many of his posts are excellent and quite helpful--including this evening's on this thread.

But -not- the original essay on this thread!

It is in major ways psychologically inaccurate and oversimplified. I will post my critique of it in a few minutes....
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 4/17, 7:39pm)


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Post 21

Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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(A critique of Robert's essay)

This essay is deeply flawed, wrong in very important aspects.

The best part of "nobody's perfect" is that Robert does very forcefully encapsulate some of the syndromes Objectivist psychologists call "defense mechanisms" and "defense values". And also one which Nathaniel Branden called "psuedo self-esteem" in the essay of the same name in The Objectivist: Too harsh judgment and condemnation of others because it makes you feel better about yourself is the major one.

Living inside your head for a self-image of perfection rather than trying to succeed in the world is another mistake he eloquently warns us against.

But alongside this is a longer list of quite mistaken points:

(1) the accusation of deliberate evasion (or neurosis - I'm not clear if he views all neurosis as evasion ) to all? some? of those who would disagree with him on the issues in his essay.

And then he goes further over the top:

"I don't plan to answer them, feeding their neurotic needs, and don't recommend you do, either."

(2) Moreover, the sweeping accusation of evasion includes -every single one- of "the movement's leaders" - presumably everyone from Ayn Rand, Nathaniel Branden, Peikoff, Kelley, Barbara Branden, Lindsay Perigo, Ed Hudgins on down. How does he know this?

(3) He claims to have "gotten to know" all these people or at least know them well enough to see into their mental processes and tell when they are deliberately evading, as opposed to making honest errors.

Really? Did you know Ayn Rand and Peikoff? Did you know Branden very well or only talk to him for a few minutes at a summer conference?

I don't propose to try to analyze from a distance (which is the omniscience mistake Robert makes) every leader of Objectivism. But I'll just sketch an alternative explanation for one:

Ayn Rand has often been condemned for her fits of anger as she blows up at a question. Can anything explain this other than a character flaw or a desire to bully or a neurotic need to see anyone who challenges her as evil to prop up her psuedo self-esteem or neuroses? What about any other Objectivist blowing up at other kinds of error or ignorance?

There is such a thing as a blind spot. Rand (or many of us who have blown up at people or written them off or broken off relations..witness the most recent Newberry flap) could not see how someone could innocently say such a thing (especially if they were in her circle as opposed to someone standing up and getting blasted in an auditiorium) since she saw too clearly what contradictions were involved and what evils would result and didn't fully realize the questioner was not as smart, had not had decades to integrate her philosophy, or was rationalistic in his mental processes. And such an error could persist. Blind spots don't just go away quickly, and even if you later decide they were inappropriate, mental processes such as overdone anger don't simply vanish. Like any habit they are automatized.

Automatized syndromes are not moral errors.

Robert, note that the following are NOT the same: (a) ever having made a moral error & (b) being "morally imperfect".

(I will continue this in another post...)

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 4/17, 7:57pm)

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 4/17, 8:19pm)

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 4/17, 10:19pm)


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Post 22

Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I agree that we have no fundamental disagreement on principles. Unfortunately, in this article you did not express your ideas, which are generally sound, with precision appropriate to an Objectivist forum. We agree that evasion of one's misconduct is counterproductive to moral perfection. But your article may be read, given your "positive" example of characterizing one's own conduct as "inexcusable," as saying something more: that one should not pursue moral perfection, because that pursuit can be, and sometimes has been, perverted into blindness to one's own occasional errors.

As I have argued in post 11 (145 on the old thread,) moral perfection is a worthwhile, achievable human goal. Its achievement requires that one's moral errors be identified rather than evaded - so that the errors and their causes can be corrected. The identification of one's own moral errors requires, in turn, accepting the fact that one is not infallible. Moral perfection, in context, means that one does what is possible to reduce the incidence of wrongs in one's conduct, down to that minimum that is the unavoidable consequence of reality. This means that it is neither rational nor realistic, having done one's best to live a moral life, to characterize the remaining occasional moral error as "inexcusable." Such characterization is most likely to lead to the very evasions that you rightly denounce.

What is missing in your article - and what I am trying to add by posting in this thread - is the understanding that moral ambition, the pursuit of moral perfection, is realistic and good. It is a high, demanding ambition, and one's achievement of real (contextually achievable) moral perfection is a valid source of justified pride.

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Post 23

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 2:35amSanction this postReply
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Robert B, I've just read your article (but not yet the posts it evoked) and I want to say that you continue to breath fresh, cool, invigorating air into my world.

The only puzzle in my mind is how there could be any question in the mind of anyone who has lived in the world more than a year as to whether or not you are correct. If one wants to find errors or morality, I suspect one need look no further than into the psycho-epistemologies of those who would say they've never been guilty of errors of morality. C'mon, fellas, come off it!

Barbara


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Post 24

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 5:34amSanction this postReply
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Barbara, you are a dear. And when seeking a breath of cool, fresh, invigorating air in the Objectivist movement, I need never look beyond your own work, which is always sensible and rooted in the real world.

Yes..."the real world." Duh. What an unusual "concept." (!)

Post 25

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 5:43amSanction this postReply
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Liked it Robert.  Infallibility is not within human potential.  The ARI crowd, in their hysterical purges,  are like Scientologists rooting out engrams.

A lot of this can we laid to Rand's misinterpretation of the meaning of the phrase "Judge not lest ye be judged".  This phrase was not intented as an invitation  to overlook or ignore error (sin).  Christ pointed to sin on virtually every occasion.  It was a warning against comparative sinning, i.e., comparing yourself to others and concluding your sins are not as many or as great as someone elses and the accompanying self satisfaction that your life does not need improvement until your neighbor catches up, that Christ was addressing. 

As you say, in agreement with Christ by the way,  that we are all sinners (make errors), and that error requires the same attention and imperative, whether 1 or 50 in number. 

There hasn't been a Messiah for a while, maybe you should apply.

ps- (I hate the necessity of this) it should not be concluded that I am a Christian.


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Post 26

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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Y'all can speak for yourselves, I am perfect. :)

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Post 27

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 6:49amSanction this postReply
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I've heard it said that ethics is not the prize, the good life is THE prize.

Robert I have come to value highly your posts and articles on SOLO. Thank you.

John

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Post 28

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 7:03amSanction this postReply
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In post #12, Shayne wrote:
Most people are not "intrinsicists" or "subjectivists", but rather have these characteristics as tendencies, and often, having *both* tendencies at the same time.

I'd say that *all* people have made mistakes of both kinds at some point in their life. We've all made some subjective and some intrinsic errors.
Along this line, I think that the following quote from Kelley's Introduction to "Truth and Toleration" is relevant:
When we insist that facts are facts, that right is right, as against the rampant subjectivism of the age, we can easily forget that facts and values must be grasped by people, each acting on his independent judgment.  We run the risk of adopting the attitudes and policies of the intrinsicist.  When we emphasize that the true and the good are contextual, when we oppose the imposition of dogma and duty, we can easily forget that opinions and preferences are not all on a par – that some are right and others aren’t.  We run the risk of subjectivism.  To be objective, we have to hold both sets of considerations in mind, both reality and personal context.  But that’s a delicate balance to maintain in the heat of argument, in the passionate complexity of our engagement with the world and with each other.

Thanks,

Glenn


Post 29

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 7:15amSanction this postReply
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Adam, in your post 22, you say:

"...[M]oral perfection is a worthwhile, achievable human goal. Its achievement requires that one's moral errors be identified rather than evaded -- so that the errors and their causes can be corrected."

This confuses me.

My understanding is that, at least in Rand's usage, "moral errors" are to be distinguished from "errors of knowledge." "Moral errors" constitute acts of immorality -- e. g., irrationality, evasion, deception, rationalization, etc. -- while "errors of knowledge" are innocent factual mistakes, misunderstandings, mistakes in logic, etc.

If you're using "moral errors" in this Randian sense, then I'm baffled by your comment. That's because your definition of "moral perfection" seems implicitly to incorporate or allow for "moral errors." Which, if true, is a pretty generous notion of "perfection." Lowering the bar of "perfection" to include past acts of immorality would, it seems to me, render the concept "perfection" meaningless.

I certainly agree with you that we should (in part) judge ourselves by our diligence in correcting any past immoralities and evasions. But I wouldn't regard this policy of self-correction as evidence of "moral perfection": If one truly were "morally perfect," one would have committed no "moral errors" needing correction.

I'm simply confused by your terminology. If you mean by "moral errors" something different from what I understand to be Rand's meaning, please clarify.

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 4/18, 9:36am)


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Post 30

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 8:44amSanction this postReply
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Hi Robert,

 

Once I switched gears and semantic meanings then I saw the excellence of your thoughts. You see I always thought moral perfectionism as “…moral principles like road maps or compasses to living -- as practical guides to direct our actions toward the achievement of values…” From that perspective I know tons of people who are morally perfect; they are sincerely engaged in the process of living life as fully as they can. From that perspective their idiosyncrasies and lapses in knowledge and context (wink, including my own) don’t really reflect their bigger picture.

 

Michael


Post 31

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 8:49amSanction this postReply
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Well, for the record: I'm perfect, I've always been perfect and I'll always be perpect.

--Brant


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Post 32

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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Robert (RE post #16):
So, in short, I don't think I've been at all silent about subjectivism, and only attacking intrinsicism.
OK. But when you speak to Objectivists, you do seem to focus on one side. Any piece that doesn't take both sides into account is, at best, incomplete.
That being the case, maybe you and I should start anew...perhaps even "cutting each other a little slack"?  :^)
OK. I'll cut *you* a little slack. Which doesn't mean I'm going to cut your articles and posts any ;) Seriously, I wish more people around here would stay focussed on ideas instead of attacking the people expressing them.

Post 33

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Barbara wrote:
The only puzzle in my mind is how there could be any question in the mind of anyone who has lived in the world more than a year as to whether or not you are correct. If one wants to find errors or morality, I suspect one need look no further than into the psycho-epistemologies of those who would say they've never been guilty of errors of morality. C'mon, fellas, come off it!
It is quite interesting how those who, on the surface, are arguing against intrinsicism here, are falling squarely into it. On your view, everyone evades sometimes, and anyone who doesn't admit it is either deluded or a liar -- this is the classic response of the intrinsicist.


Post 34

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Shayne,

You point out something interesting when you note that, when talking to Objectivists, I tend to focus on intrinsicist errors, while when addressing libertarians and anarchists, I tend to focus on subjectivism.

The reason is pretty obvious: I try to address an audience with the message I think it most needs to hear. In my experience intrinsicism is far more prevalent in Objectivist circles than is subjectivism, which tends to be far more prevalent among libertarians. Subjectivists don't tend to hang around Objectivism very long. In his "Understanding Objectivism" course, Peikoff also noted that the rationalism/intrinsicism premises were more common among Objectivists than empiricism/subjectivism. Not that there aren't counter-examples in each case, of course; but in aiming a message, I do try to take the audience's context into account.


Post 35

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Shayne, regarding your comment about Barbara falling into an intrinsicist mindset:

Her generalization (and mine) may or may not be in error. However, since she attributes her belief about people to life experiences (as I do), then if the conclusion is in error it may be a problem of faulty generalization -- an error more on the empiricist side, rather than some conclusion reached by deducing from abstractions.


Post 36

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 10:02amSanction this postReply
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Robert:

Regarding your comment that if you and Barbara are making an error, it'd be empiricist not rationalist: That's just it. Every empiricist must resort to rationalism in order to justify his empiricism, just as every rationalist must resort to empiricism in order to live in the real world. (Leonard Peikoff made a similar if not the same point in "Understanding Objectivism").

Which is part of why I disagree with your method for approaching your Objectivist audience. It is a natural and expected response for a rationalist to swing to empiricism. So a message warning them against rationalism, without providing a means to avoid the empiricism, is doomed to fail.


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Post 37

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison,

In addressing Robert Bidinotto, you wrote:
There hasn't been a Messiah for a while, maybe you should apply.
The last time I mentioned that he was applying for the position of God, he said that he had God under contract as an assistant...

Maybe we're playing with fire...

Michael


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Post 38

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 12:47pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison: I'll take your "Objectivist Messiah" nomination under advisement. God the Son is a decent job, but I worry it would be a step down.

As for you, MSK -- in response to your blasphemy, I have requisitioned from a former assistant a very warm spot in Haydes for you.

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 4/18, 12:48pm)


Post 39

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Brant (post 31)! I remember you from N. Branden's yahoo forum (a couple of years ago). Umm, err, you may want to check your premises regarding your present state of perfection, though ... read carefully:

Well, for the record: I'm perfect, I've always been perfect and I'll always be perpect.

--Brant
I mean you no disrespect Brant (indeed, I have always found you insightful). I believe you that were jesting--and I'm merely returning with jest.

:-O

Ed


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