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Post 80

Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,
Why?


Post 81

Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 2:48pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

LOLOL...

Technically you are correct. But even to the well-seasoned, the between-the-lines sort of shouts out atchya. Here is what I mean:

Stated by them: No one should read the Branden books.
Between the lines message to listener: Do not examine all the evidence, only their side.
Conclusion 1 of what message means to listener: Don't use your own mind and don't make your own decision, let them do it for you - of course you may use your own mind with only their version of the events and/or facts.
Conclusion 2 of what message means to listener: They are uncomfortable with people knowing other versions of the events and/or facts than theirs.

Michael

Edit - Extra conclusion of listener from Conclusion 2: Maybe bad things will happen to me if I hang around these people and they find out I read the books they don't want me to.

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/05, 2:54pm)


Post 82

Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 3:50pmSanction this postReply
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None of those obvious implications matter to a dogged literalist.


Post 83

Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 10:03pmSanction this postReply
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"pretty much requested that no one read the Branden books...No one should read the Branden books."

Usually there is a context for everything, but I find it hard to imagine -any- circumstances in which it is appropriate for anyone to -request- someone not to read ANY book which has ever been published.

What is appropriate, if the book is worth the trouble and promises to be widely misleading, is to offer a point-by-point rebuttal or a summary of why the book lacks reading value, is wrong, will lead one into debauchery or lunacy or relativism, or whatever.

The same applies to saying no one -should- read a particular book: Reasons for reading a book vary and are not necessarily because one agrees or will agree or will mindlessly internalize what it says.

Phil

Post 84

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 6:32amSanction this postReply
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Of course we don't know what was included in the request, do we?


Post 85

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 6:59amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

If I remember the quote I responded to correctly, it read that "many of the speakers pretty much requested that we not read the books."  No context (other than the seminar) and no further reason, nor the year or specific speakers or how many exactly or if there were any questions raised that were squashed or ANY FURTHER CONTEXT.

I responded to what was written, not to the story as interpreted by the received wisdom about ARI.

And quite frankly, the received wisdom on this site is wearing rather thin with me.

Phil,

Since when is it illegitimate for one person or group of people to claim that certain books are not worth reading?  Isn't that what this thread is all about?  And if "smear job" etc. constitute reasons, than ARI has equal right to there use. And "worth the trouble" is clearly becoming a moot question, isn't it, since ARI is going to a great deal of trouble in it's attempts to counter the influence of the Brandens. But, of course, the received wisdom continues to be received as such on both sides...

BTW, has it occurred to anyone but me that acceptance of someone else's views says nothing whatsoever about the independence of the mind accepting them.  Neither does non-acceptance.

The double standard here continues to fascinate.

Alec,

I continue to read what people write, not what they claim to mean when I call them on it.

Tom



Post 86

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 9:05amSanction this postReply
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Tom,

Let's do this another way. Don't forget that I really don't have my own dog in this race as it developed over the years. I am merely observing what has transpired after a long absence. But the answer to these questions should provide some context for why a newcomer will be unfavorable impressed with requests to not read certain books from an organization manifestly devoted to being objective.

Do you deny that ARI has severed ties with people and made public moral condemnations due to petty infighting? The stories are quite numerous and some are pretty well documented.

Do you know of anyone whom the Brandens have excommunicated for disagreeing with them? (Please exclude those who have made personal-insult-type attacks.)

Do you consider it proper for Ayn Rand's unpublished work to be used with a personal agenda (to attack/defend) to the extent it was in Valliant's book, and in conjunction with this, do you believe that her own words are fully capable of speaking for themselves and do not need help, say from an attorney, to properly disclose their meaning? (Stand-alone essays at the end or beginning of such a work to advance the compiler's agenda in this question do not need to be considered, since they are the compiler's own work and therefore proper.)

Michael


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Post 87

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Tom,

"to claim that certain books are not worth reading" is not the same as to "request" one not read them. Now if the speakers in question said the former, that would be different.

[ Note: I use words very precisely and don't wish to spend time replying to posts rewording, paraphrasing, slightly shifting or misreading them. I find 'semantics' posts to be a total waste of time. ]

Note further that my post was not on ARI or the Branden books but on requesting that someone not read a book, any book.

Phil

By the way, as far as loaded language is concerned, MSK in the next post [#86] is making a similar mistake...he couches what he wants to debate in terms of imprecise words which are emotionally loaded and presuppose his conclusion: "petty infighting" and "excommunicated".

I wish people would take these forums seriously enough to read carefully, edit their posts, and remove sloppy or straw man arguments. Then we might actually be able to reach conclusions instead of slinging emotive phrases at each other.
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 6/06, 10:24am)

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 6/06, 12:03pm)


Post 88

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 11:33amSanction this postReply
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Philip,

I meant exactly what I said.

From what I have read so far (for one example, Chris Wolf's documentation, albeit one-sided, was a pretty petty scenario for Reisman), "petty" accurately describes several cases of what I have read. Maybe you have a more precise term in mind?

Taking Ayn Rand's unpublished work and turning it into a rant against ANYONE is a completely petty use of her material (there are other stronger adjectives that also apply) and a complete disrespect for her capacity to say what she means. Or do you think she needs Valliant to interpret her correctly on material being unveiled for the first time because she is unable to make herself clear?

Excommunicated is a metaphor for being expelled from contact with an organization - so in Nathaniel's case, it could mean something to the effect of him refusing to see a therapy patient or refusing to schedule a consultation, and in Barbara's case, it would probably mean cutting the excommunicated party off from any public contact. I used this term to be able to make a comparison with ARI's practice of cutting people off for difference of ideas.

I know of no instances where they have done these for disagreements to their ideas - but you have more local history than I and probably know more about whether they did or not. Also, maybe you also have a more precise term for what I wanted to say?

I certainly wish people would try to understand a post correctly before trying to criticize it.

Michael


Post 89

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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"maybe you also have a more precise term for what I wanted to say?"

Michael, I would say this: " made public moral condemnations due to petty infighting" this way: "made public moral condemnations due to personal disputes, financial and policy disagreements, and other disagreements which are not basically philosophical at root." Or some other more specific, more descriptive way.

And I would say this: "have excommunicated for disagreeing with them" this way: "have refused to deal with for disagreeing with them". Again, more precise and concrete and thus something which can be better debated as to its truth or falsity.

Phil

Post 90

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Philip,

A bit wordy and it takes the emotional charge out (which I have seen levied at them without mercy), but I'll buy that.

The high road is a good road to take you to the truth.

Michael

Post 91

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 1:54pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

"I continue to read what people write, not what they claim to mean when I call them on it."

Your response unwittingly proves my point. Minus the distracting self-congratulation, it can be rephrased as: "I continue to read what people write, not what they mean."

Alec
(Edited by Alec Mouhibian
on 6/06, 1:55pm)


Post 92

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 10:51pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

"I don't have a dog in this race" is disingenuous. You clearly are supporting the received view of the facts as your questions indicate. And what is the "this" that you want to do another way?

 Here are brief answers.

1. I don't have the desire go through each and every one of these stories and documents to point to the questions I think you are perfectly able to ask and answer on your own.  But I will say this: "petty" is, as Phil points out, a "loaded" word. It is, in any case YOUR judgment of the case, which, evidently, does not square with the judgment of the parties who made the decision. You are, of course, free not to deal with them, for whatever "petty" reason or "grand" reason you like, just as they are free to deal with whomever they decide to for whatever reason ("petty" or "grand") that they wish.  Besides, I've asked some of the questions and suggested answers in this and other threads. I'm tired of repeating myself.

2. Well, no. But what does that prove? That they are good guys and Ayn Rand and Leonard Peikoff aren't ? That they don't see ideas as important enough to break off a friendship about? That they are "tolerant" of anything and anybody?  That they have nothing to lose? What?

3. Well, if the journals are evidence in the case against the Brandens' received view than yes. It's up to you to decide what you think of the quality of the evidence. I have said that Valliant's book is a brief for the defense of Ayn Rand. If you have biases against the introduction of any of the evidence, don't sit on the Jury. If you object to a lawyer presenting a case by doing his part of the job -- usually considered an important feature of any trial -- then  don't sit on the Jury. As for me, I am very willing to sit on the Jury, consider the evidence, listen to the Lawyers' take on the evidence and make a decision. I don't think that the very fact of presenting evidence and commenting on it constitutes proof against the evidence. And if defending Ayn Rand constitutes a "personal agenda" then count me in.

I am still struck by the double standard here. And even more with the fact that nobody but me seems to want to deal with it.

Phil,

Have it your way.

Since when was it considered illegitimate for any number of people to request, for whatever reason, that  someone not read a book? Isn't that what this thread is about?

As I pointed out, the original post reporting this particular incident was very unclear about context, so the reasons for the request are very unclear. And your posts seem to support my position that this be condemned.  Yet you throw the pie at me? Why?

Make the context of these  requests clear and I'll respond in kind.

Alec,

I see that you consider yourself an expert in telling me what I mean, even if it isn't what I wrote.

More to your point. If you think that I have misconstrued your meaning, say what you mean and stop calling me names ("dogged literalist") and I'll respond in kind.  Continue to assume that it is my job to read your mind and I will shut up. Or is that the goal?

Tom


Post 93

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 11:13pmSanction this postReply
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AAAAAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!

Post 94

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 11:56pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

Here's another shot at it. This is because I keep bringing up an issue that is always simply ignored. I will limit myself to two questions and take out all possible "loaded" insinuations. Maybe that will help to show what I find extremely objectionable.

1. Do you believe that Ayn Rand's own words are fully capable of speaking for themselves, or do they need help from some commentator to properly disclose their meaning?

2. Do you consider it proper for any of Ayn Rand's unpublished work to be presented for the first time to the world interspersed with another author's running commentary that displays a clear bias on an issue covered in her newly presented work?

I have my own answers to those questions. What are yours? I am only interested in this one issue for the time being.

Michael


Edit - On rereading your post, you said basically to the second question, "Well, if the journals are evidence in the case against the Brandens' received view than yes."

That didn't really answer my question, it merely brought up another (the trial versus biography/compilation slant). My interest is more general than this "trial." But still, this brings up even a third question:

3. Do you consider it proper to publish a book of Ayn Rand's unpublished work without the primary intent being to present her work?

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/07, 12:09am)


Post 95

Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 10:46amSanction this postReply
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Phil,

Good answer. I feel your pain. After all, on the basis of the evidence so far provided about the incident in the post, we can't for sure say whether the "request" met all of your requirements or not.

Michael,

I understand your questions, but what is the point?

The received wisdom on this site is that Barbara Branden has every right to use Ayn Rand's words and tapes and actions to support her claim that "the dogmatic absolutism of her certainty, the blinding conviction of her own rectitude and her special place in the world, the callousness of her intolerance for opinions that were not hers, the unwavering assurance that she was alone to know the truth...was...the fuel for the height of achievement she attained."  (Page 329-330)

Yes, she is making the claim as I have stated it, and the fact that she formulates it in the form of a question ("one must wonder if"), is very clever but doesn't hide the fact that she believes that Ayn Rand was a dogmatic absolutist, intolerant of opinions not hers, and unwavering in her assurance that she was alone to know the truth, and that (the bone she offers to fans) all of these obviously terrible things fueled her great achievement, so it's OK. (If you want a summary of the received view, reading page 327-330 is a good place to start)

And that's just part of the story the Brandens tell, all of it their interpretation of  Rand's words, tapes and actions, that you claim (at least as far as the words are concerned) should be allowed to stand by themselves. Of course, the net cast by the Brandens includes the assumption, due no doubt to proximity and implied consent, that the Brandens' interpretation is not a biased, agenda-driven interpretation at all; it just simply IS the words, tapes and actions speaking for themselves. In effect, Rand was channelling through the Brandens.

Along comes Valliant, saying that these claims are false, that Ayn Rand was not the woman portrayed by the Brandens, and what is the result? Uproar, vilification, accusations of bias and agenda-driven whitewashing by the gang at ARI, inappropriate use of Rand's written words that should speak for themselves, ad hominem, name calling.  My God, man, you'd think someone was attacking Ayn Rand (irony, in case you missed it)

I've had enough. It's clear that in any contest between Branden's interpretation and Valliant's, Branden's wins, no matter what the facts, no matter what access to new information demonstrates, you just aren't going to look.

I call that evasion. What do you call it?

Tom

PS, don't bother to bring up the supposed evasion at ARI of Barbara's book. Some of the ARI gang read it, some didn't, no one was excommunicated for READING anything, If anyone was excommunicated in this connection it was for writing a favorable review, which, in light of the evidence, seems to me to be a perfectly justified reaction. As to denying the affair, I guess Peikoff didn't consider Branden and Branden to be reliable witnesses under the circumstances. When Rand's written words spoke, he listened. I know that all of the negative books have been read and are on the shelves at ARI, including The Cult of Ayn Rand, It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand, et al. Unfortunately, as is often the case with the Brandens, I have to rely on a conversation I had with someone in a position to know, as verification.  But that's OK, isn't it? Of course, the news I bring vindicates ARI, and I'd be more readily accepted if I brought something damning to the table, right?

(Edited by Tom Rowland on 6/07, 10:51am)

(Edited by Tom Rowland on 6/07, 10:57am)


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Post 96

Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,
I understand your questions, but what is the point?
Well one of the points is that you didn't answer them. I could speculate on the reasons for this, but I won't.

What I will do is call to task statements like:
Along comes Valliant, saying that these claims are false...
I wish that was all he did. But it wasn't. He is guilty of the most sloppy scholarship ever printed under the authorization of ARI.

I would even grant him the forum, space, whatever he wants to make his case - except to put himself between the words of Ayn Rand and the reader in the first unveiling of her unpublished material.

That is making a propaganda festival out of her unpublished work. That actually is my point. Merely the fact that it was done that way speaks volumes about those involved in the project. What it particularly shows to me - resoundingly - is that his (and their) interest was not to find the truth at all - but merely to prove a point at all costs. Even at the cost of Ayn Rand's unpublished material.

Since you have decided to not answer my questions, I will answer them:

1. I believe that Ayn Rand's own words are fully capable of speaking for themselves. Not only do they not need any help from any commentator at all to properly disclose their meaning, in life she was openly hostile to those who tried to do so.

2. I do not consider it proper for any of Ayn Rand's unpublished work to be presented for the first time to the world interspersed with another author's running commentary. Period. Even if it does not display any bias at all. The place for these things is in essays at the beginning or end of the compilation - or in footnotes.

3. I do not consider it proper to publish a book of Ayn Rand's unpublished work with the primary intent being something different than to present her work. In life she never permitted this to happen and for her heir to authorize this is a slap in her face and a spit on her memory.

My library is finally being reconstructed and I have a new copy of ITOE in front of me. The whole second half of the book is a section presenting live workshops with Ayn Rand. The love and care Harry Binswanger held in performing his job of editing those tapes for written media comes across in the description of his work (Preface, p. 128) and especially the following quote:
My general policy was to err on the side of over-inclusiveness in regard to Miss Rand's answers, as this may well be the last opportunity for her statements on these topics to be published.
What the hell happened to this attitude? Why was it forgotten? Because of some "trial" that will mean nothing 30 years from now? WHAT ABOUT HER OWN HISTORY IN HER OWN WORDS? WHAT ABOUT HER WORK?

Do you agree with these positions? If not, where do you find fault with them? Or do you prefer to ignore them and go on talking about this metaphorical trial?

Michael


PS- On point one, regarding Ayn Rand being hostile to others using her unpublished work, I would like to include a parentheses:

I haven't read the book against Objectivism, Is Objectivism a Religion? by Albert Ellis in years, but I do remember a hilarious passage where he received copies of the tape of a debate he engaged in with Nathaniel Branden (I think it was with Rand present), but they erased everything but his own words! A complete debate with only one person's words on tape. LOLOL... I am pretty sure that she approved of this and I think that this is pretty indicative of her attitude towards others making use of her unpublished material - and please remember that at that point in time, Nathaniel had her approval for speaking in her name.

There are other cases of this resistance also, Mimi Gladstein's request, and others. I have to hand it to Valliant, though. He succeeded in doing something Rand would never have approved of in life - or at least never did so and vehemently opposed attempts at things like that - and he did it with the sanction and approval of her heir.


EDIT - Not one hour after I posted this, my copy of The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics finally arrived in the mail. On an initial skim, I see that ALL my questions are pertinent. I will read this thing now and then I will be able to better talk about it.

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/07, 1:27pm)


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Post 97

Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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And that's just part of the story the Brandens tell, all of it their interpretation of  Rand's words, tapes and actions, that you claim (at least as far as the words are concerned) should be allowed to stand by themselves.

Tom, can you explain to me why the "Brandens" are so often stitched together as co-conspirators? If Barbara had simply changed her last name after the marriage to Nathaniel I expect perceptions would be quite different.

From what I gather (and please correct me if you can) Nathaniel Branden and Barbara Branden ended what was left of their marriage around the time Ayn Rand and Nathaniel split up. Again, from what I gather (from Barbara's book) Nathaniel and Barbara were a bad match to begin with. Nathaniel Branden is not dressed up to look nice in her book. He looks bad. But Ayn Rand loved him. Whatever her reasons (love does not always take account of reasons) she loved the guy to the core.

No one was squeaky clean in that mess but who cares? Nothing about it affects our lives one way or the other. If they were immoral we are equipped to say, "Look, immorality!" Whatever mistakes Rand, Nathaniel or Barbara might have made it doesn't diminish the value of the philosophy for our lives. And their triumphs don't lift us any higher than we have lifted ourselves. 


Post 98

Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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Tom, you wrote
I've had enough. It's clear that in any contest between Branden's interpretation and Valliant's, Branden's wins, no matter what the facts, no matter what access to new information demonstrates, you just aren't going to look.

I call that evasion. What do you call it?
Why yes, I would call that evasion. Who are you talking about?

Michael


Post 99

Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

I have very clearly described what I accused you of (literalism), you have very clearly proven the accusation correct, by saying all words should be considered devoid of meaning, implication, connotation, and intent. No need to go further there. But now you're getting disingenuous. You've asked, constantly on this thread, about the lies in this book. A few substantial ones have been brought up, and you've ignored them. You've stuck your fingers in your ears and started blabbering that we're just hurling blind accusations. You are obviously impenetrable, and highly disreputable, since you apparently think it's okay to falsely accuse people of launching "book-burning" crusades (as Valliant and his editors did of the Brandens). After all, this is a (400 page??!!!) "brief" in defense of Ayn Rand, so anything flies by you.

I am through discussing this with you. And if you can't tell the difference between invoking interviews -- specifically conducted by Barbara for biographical purposes -- and invoking Ayn Rand's PRIVATE FUCKING PERSONAL JOURNALS for purposes of analysis...then I hardly see the point in anyone continuing here.

Alec

And by the way, I do not think that the use of her journals was the moral crime here -- that's a very iffy question, which I don't feel strongly about. (Although it's undoubtedly true that their publication is horrible for her image.)



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