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Post 20

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 6:49amSanction this postReply
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It wouldn't bother me that much if when really stupid people come to this site and asked questions or raised arguments, they did it with at least some semblance of civility. . .

Guy - you're a rationalistic idiot. . .

idiots never seem to realize that they're idiots . . .

So much for civility.


Post 21

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 6:56amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Regarding:
So much for civility.

Please tell me what this is:
acile wank-job with a poly-paragraph soporific denouement. Where does one start with such diarrhetic tripe?


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Post 22

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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Kat,

Here are my answers to your questions.
1)  Would you always--without exception--tell the truth, even if telling a lie to criminal would save the life of you or your family?
No. As I said in my post, I would be honest about dealing with reality and lie to the criminal to save my family members as long as I could live, too. One of my problems with Rowlands is that he confuses the definition of honesty, which is about focusing on reality (Rand's definition), not about telling the truth to people.
2)  Would you ever put yourself in harms way (take a bullet) for another person?
I would if that person was very important to me and I felt sure that I would survive the wound. Otherwise, no. I would not do so if there was doubt in my mind about survival. As valuable as my wife, my child and my friends are to me, I have to value my own life over theirs. Since life is the standard of value, doing anything else would be altruism -- because I would be dead. I couldn't enjoy the saved life of the person I was trying to save if I wasn't alive.
3)  Can one ever lie for the purpose of self-preservation and/or protecting loved ones from mortal danger?
Yes, as I said in No. 1 and in my post, you can lie.

But you can only lie  morally in cases of coercion. There are no exceptions for love or anything else because your pride takes a beating every time. It would be an admission to yourself that you cannot handle a situation and surround yourself with people who cannot handle their situation.

The "thou shalt not commandments" you sense from me pertain to situations in which principles apply and to break them would be a violation of morality. And, as I said in my post, there are four virtues that we must always abide by as commandments: honesty, pride, independence and integrity.

Thanks for asking your questions. :-)


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Post 23

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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Kitten,

A personal statement can eloquently illustrate these principles in context and how I practice them according to my own values. So, with respect to you:

I will lie to anyone anytime I judge necessary to protect you without batting an eye and sleep well that night knowing that I had been exceptionally virtuous in preserving what I so dearly love and value.

I will not hesitate to take a bullet for you, even if it kills me.

Michael

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Post 24

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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David Elmore writes:

But you can only lie  morally in cases of coercion.

Supposing you have plans to go to a surprise birthday party for a friend one evening, and you happen to run into that friend earlier in the day at the grocery store.  That friend casually asks what you're up to that evening.  Is the moral thing to do to spill the beans and tell him about his own surprise party, thus ruining the effect?


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Post 25

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Regarding:
So much for civility.

Please tell me what this is:
acile wank-job with a poly-paragraph soporific denouement. Where does one start with such diarrhetic tripe?
The difference is that this man did not begin his post calling for and recommending civility and then proceed to belie his own recommendation.


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Post 26

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 10:28amSanction this postReply
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Robert, my point was that idiots should try to be civil. Clearly this doesn't apply to me. =)

Secondly, civility is a form of benevolence that aims at a specific value. Simplistically, you could say that that value is civil discourse, which seems quite unattainable with certain people, making civility irrelevant.

Thirdly, justice dictates than when a person makes an ass out of himself in a rude way, he not be coddled in return or treated as if he hadn't made the transgression. To treat a rotter as if he were a non-rotter would not be appropriate.

Post 27

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
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 Lance writes: "The perfectionist mindset in ethics is a terrible and impossible burden. The best we can do is to establish guidelines, and then proceed to apply them as best we can to whatever reality comes our way. "

 Reminds me of ANOTHER quote from Dune: "There are no solutions, only choices." (Sorry, I've been on a Dune kick lately...).

It's another one of those quotes that's been sticking in my head in a troublesome way...would you say that is what you are saying, Lance, or not quite?



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Post 28

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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Robert - if I'm against (say) murder (initiated incivility) it doesn't mean that I have to be against self-defense (retaliatory incivility).

Post 29

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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"There are no solutions, only choices."

Joe, that's an interest thought. Solutions are not physical existents...I think of solutions as a process. I'm gonna think about this more. I'm off to work now.


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Post 30

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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Joe M,

I used to know a guy in Brazil who was a descendent of a powerful strong-arm Brazilian President of the military dictatorship days. We worked together on a few cultural projects together (Aldo Parisot Cello Festival, among others).

He always said (at least five times a day) that with him there were never any problems, only solutions.

I spent about 70% of my time cleaning up his screw-ups.

How I dearly wish he had read Dune...

Michael


(btw - off topic. I am enjoying the Trickster essay very much, despite the typos [clean em up, dude, the article is very good and deserves it] - and I have downloaded Hero Cycle to read right afterward.)


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Post 31

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 1:29pmSanction this postReply
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David's caustic language has, I think, clouded the most important issue in this discussion.  Rand redefined honestly.  Much as she did with the terms "selfish" and "egoism," she redefined (or perhaps clarified) honesty to NOT mean "telling the truth."  It means a conscious commitment to seeing reality as it is. 

In the example of the murderer and the man, the man was honest at the moment that he didn't shut down his brain & refuse to deal with the situation; he evaluated the situation with full commitment to seeing it and the possible consequences of any action.  Then he made a decision.  He did not somehow step out of honesty by telling a lie to the murderer.  The honesty happened in the process of looking at the facts of the horrific situation in which he was placed. 

Regarding the act of lying or telling the truth, I reprint this from OPAR (p. 275) - to hopefully add to the clarity of this issue, not as an 'argument from authority':
Lying is absolutely wrong - under certain conditions.  It is wrong when a man does it in the attempt to obtain a value.  But, to take a different kind of case, lying to protect one's values from criminals is not wrong.  If and when a man's honesty becomes a weapon that kidnappers or other wielders of force can use to harm him, then the normal context is reversed; his virtue would then become a means serving the ends of evil.

On a separate note, honesty relates to consciousness or focus also.  From Peikoff's OPAR again: "In regard to consciousness, honesty consists in taking the process of cognition seriously." 

Jason


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Post 32

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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I have nothing further to say to Mr. Elmore

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Post 33

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

I'm not sure just to what extent Rand actually did re-define honesty.

From Galt's speech, we have:
Honesty... [not] a value if obtained by fraud — that an attempt to gain a value by deceiving the mind of others... [emphasis added]
This sounds, to me, that honesty is still involved with deceiving others, and is not exclusively related to avoiding self-deception.

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Post 34

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 2:57pmSanction this postReply
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David Elmore: "Barbara should've told the truth to her dying mother. The higher value in that exchange was Barbara's pride, not her mother's wish to know a lie."

I would have had no pride if I had allowed my mother to die with the pain of worrying about me. Did I not mention that I am deeply proud of having lied to her?

Barbara.


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Post 35

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 3:03pmSanction this postReply
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Right the fuck on, Barbara!

(Er... sorry about the profanity - but that is how your statement hit me.)

Michael


Post 36

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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Rand redefined honesty.  Much as she did with the terms "selfish" and "egoism," she redefined (or perhaps clarified) honesty to NOT mean "telling the truth."  It means a conscious commitment to seeing reality as it is. 

Jason, I like what you said there very much. Identifying reality is the thing. Ethics is, "What should I do with this reality that I have identified?"   


Joe M, I'm struggling with the quote from Dune. It's not that I think it's wrong it's just that I don't understand it. Can you connect the dots for me? 


Post 37

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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Lance, I was actually hoping for insight from others! I don't want to hijack Joe's thread, so we'll let it be for the individual to work at.


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Post 38

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
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*Purr Alert*

Michael said:
Kitten.... I will lie to anyone anytime I judge necessary to protect you without batting an eye and sleep well that night knowing that I had been exceptionally virtuous in preserving what I so dearly love and value.

I will not hesitate to take a bullet for you, even if it kills me.

Wow... I am speechless.   Thank you, my love.  My hero.   purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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Post 39

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 9:11pmSanction this postReply
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Wow.  How exciting!  Let me just reply to some of the posts here.

James, glad you liked the article.  You're certainly right that the focus really needs to be on your own life.

Lindsay, thank you.  Very kinds words.

Luke, I'm glad you liked it, and that it helps you in your own work.  The distinction between rules and principles is not my own, I just bring it up a lot (as you can see, there are people who can't see the difference).  I read it first in an article by David Kelley.  It's a very powerful concept that can change the way you look at virtues entirely.  The Objectivist ethics deals primarily in values, and the virtues (via principles) are just ways of attaining them.

Lance, I agree that the perfectionist mindset is bad.  I think it's bad because it's aim is to avoid immorality, instead of living life.  The goals are all wrong.  And it requires interpreting ethics in a rationalistic light so that you can have clean moral boundaries.  Measuring moral correctness is seen as the defining function of morality, instead of living life.  So it leads to rules.

Jeff!  Fantastic!  I completely agree, and think you said it very well.  And based on the number of sanctions, others agree.  David is an idiot.  It's always shocking to see somebody so wrong on so many issues.  He'd almost have to try!  I'll give him one thing though.  The style of his post and the content fit nicely together.  All crap.

Katdaddy,  you said "I keep sensing a 'Thou shalt not lie'  commandment coming from you irregardless of context."  Funny you should mention that.  In previous articles on the "rule-based morality" topic, I've mentioned that they usually end up in the form "Thou shalt not" whatever.  Very nice call.

Kernon and Jeff, you're both right that rudeness in retaliation is fine.  Civility is not a blank check for taking abuse.

Jason, I agree with some of what you wrote.  Obviously Rand didn't accept that honesty was a rule stating you should always tell the truth under any conditions.  She didn't exactly redefine it, though.  She stated the principle behind it, why the truth was in your self-interest, and by connecting it to values, set the scope for it.  So you can call that redefining if you want, but it's not as if she flipped the meaning on its head like "selfishness" or "egoism".

But look at what your wrote after that?  You're accepting David's bizarre view that honesty is all in your head (mind-body dichotomy).  As Kernon describes later, it's the view that honesty is avoiding self-deception.  By that view, a compulsive liar who pretends to be someone he's not, tries to trick people all the time, and is in every way dishonest by convention standards is fully embodying the virtue of honesty because he's keeping his lies clear in his own head.  Since he doesn't believe it himself, he's a paragon of honesty!  And I thought it was stupid that he suggested a man who's completely dependent on others and has to obey their every whim is practicing the virtue of independence.  I can only imagine what he thinks pride is.

Anyway, this view of honesty as simply focusing on reality doesn't hold up under scrutiny.  Is a liar focusing on reality just because he keeps his lies (fake reality) clear of the truth (reality)?  Is spending time trying to make a convincing lie, worrying about trying to make reality appear different from how it really is, and spending mental effort keeping them apart really the same thing as focusing on reality?

And then, you give the quote by Peikoff, who agrees with me, not David.  He doesn't talk about honesty as avoiding self-delusion.  How can that become "a means of serving the ends of evil"?

Let me just add to what Kernon quoted from Rand herself.  This is her statement about what honesty is.
Honesty is the recognition of the fact that the unreal is unreal and can have no value, that neither love nor fame nor cash is a value if obtained by fraud -- that an attempt to gain a value by deceiving the mind of others is an act of raising your victims to a position higher than reality, where you become a pawn of their blindness, a slave of their non-thinking and their evasions, while their intelligence, their rationality, their perceptiveness becomes the enemies you have to dread and flee -- that you do not care to live as a dependent, lest of all a dependent on the stupidity of others, or as a fool whose source of values is the fools he succeeds in fooling -- that honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others.
Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
Now really, does this sound like a virtue that involves "only mental action"?  It sounds to me that a commitment to reality means more than just keeping your lies clear in your head.

Now contrast David's view of honesty as "only mental action" with my view of honesty.  My view is that instead of keeping lies straight, you can avoid them entirely.  You don't have to spend mental energy constructing elaborate falsehoods and trying to convince others of them.  You can focus on what's real, and work at dealing with reality directly.  You can live without fear of being caught, and with the quiet assurance that you have nothing to hide.  You have the advantage of being able and willing to communicate your thoughts, feelings, and goals to other people, without worrying that they'll see through your web of lies.  Communication, which is so useful for achieving values with other people, is a value instead of a threat.  You seek the best and brightest among men as your friends, instead of the most gullible.  You gain the respect and trust of those around you, enabling more person connections and opportunities that wouldn't be normally available to you.

This whole conversation is interesting in the context of my article.  I claim that morality is a tool for living, and not the other way around.  And that virtues are based on principles and are aimed at values, not arbitrary rules we follow because Saint Ayn told us too.  And such a violent reaction!  I guess the shoe fit!


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