RoR: Forum

What a nice article!

Personality and temperment, like height, body type, and eye color, are genetically mediated traits, so you get rotten little SOB's and pretty reasonable little SOB's. Great children are wonderful to behold, but memory of them fades more quickly than Hurricane Rotten Kid, who is more of a breeding deterrent than a prohibition on alcohol would be.

I am pretty sure I'd like some kids eventually, even with the knowledge that there are some rotten SOB traits in my bloodline...

Post 21

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 7:33am

I have recently (in the past year or so) come around a bit on this issue, as well. Last March I left my corporate job and went back to working as a speech pathologist. Every day I am surrounded by three and four year olds at a special preschool for delayed kids in West Philadelphia. I'm sure there are worse family situations than those of the kids I teach, but I haven't seen them. Yet at this young age, there are still many children who come into the classroom every morning with fresh eyes and a gorgeous grin, ready to be thrilled by whatever the day might hold.

They surprise me all the time. I bring fresh fruits and vegetables from the farm where I live and they appreciate them - even more than the Happy Meals they sometimes bring for lunch, if they bring one at all. They sit silently and listen to beautiful music most mornings, and enjoy it more than my own rendition of "Old MacDonald" - actually, some of them cover their ears for that one.

A month or so ago we dropped some seeds onto a wet paper towel stuck in a Zip-Lock bag and taped them to the window. I thought the "wow" factor would be quite low, instead I have found that every day the children notice any development in the growth of our sprouts. Kids who have struggled all year with the concepts of "big" and "bigger", or yesterday vs. today, suddenly are dragging me over to the window and pointing out to me a miniscule tendril that wasn't there before.

And I realise that these kids from sad homes are still happy, so far. Resiliant, and hopeful, and strong. I feel happy when I am with them, when my morning circle time begins with "good morning miss Ashley!"

I feel happy when they cheer for one another's successes - not a "good job" and a handshake - literally jumping up and down, waving arms and cheering. I never got that at my old job and I think that now I don't want to live without it.

Post 22

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 11:07am

What a great article!

I have known Livy since she was born--she really is an awesome kid. Fearless and beautiful. She was just at my house recently and we had a wonderful time.

Jennifer, you discuss in your article one of the main reasons my husband and I decided to have kids in the first place. You see, we were NEVER EVER EVER going to have kids EVER. He and I found children extremely annoying and sticky and loud and completely out of control. One day, after spending some prolonged time with the kids of a close friend of mine, I realized something profound. Brats aren't born; they're made. Parenting technique is a significant factor in how children behave. And now when I see an out of control child screaming through a restaurant, I still feel irritated. Only my irritation is mainly directed at the kid's parents. I mostly feel really sorry for the kid, who isn't receiving the kind of guidance he really needs to navigate life successfully.

This is a topic I could go on and on about. But I won't--yet. However, let me just say--you're in for quite a Fourth of July! You'll get to see two more kids, who are in completely different phases of childhood than Livy. Hope to talk more about this with you in person!

~Jenn

Post 23

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 11:11am

Thanks, Jenn. I look forward to meeting your kids now, too. :) Knowing this about you, I am further intrigued, and want to hear more about the metamorphosis of your thinking.

This is getting scary -- perhaps Mercury is in retrograde? I'm going to check my horoscope...

Post 24

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 11:52am

Very good article, Jennifer. (Sanction time.) Livy sounds like a wonderful child. Hats off to the Elmores.

Linz - that Post 7 was hilarious. I'm still laughing.

Michael

Post 25

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 4:48pm

In my experience, which is somewhat limited, I admit, no amount of good parenting can help a kid who is a bastard to start with. Unfortunately, a lot of bad parenting CAN fuck up a good kid.
Seems unfair.

Post 26

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 4:41pm

Jennifer,

Are you psychic? @#$%^&*() This my main reason for staying alive; to discover what it takes to raise a well-adjusted adult. This little girl seems to be too good to be true. There's an expression I often use when adults have unrealistic expectations of young children. EARLY RIPEN EARLY ROT. My question is this: What sort of training has the home provided? It's obviously worked, in the short term; but will it sustain to the end of adolescence. It would be in the best interests of this and every child to examine the parenting style that leads to a self actualized objectvist person. The goal for a child's volition should not be to appease the sensibilities of adults, no matter how well-intentioned; but to become what her true self is. The goal for adults; is to ensure that all children have this opportunity. If we live long enough we'll become dependent on those who were once dependent on us. Do the sins of the parents visit themselves on their grandchildren? Would Livy's parents come forward and reveal their child's natural conceptual tempo and the parenting skills that have been so successful with her? Better yet, would an anonymous family who enjoys a similar achievement, come forward and share their experiences with those who "don't have a clue"? How about a virtual child raised by committee?

Is there room for a SOLOHQ parenting interest group?

Thank you Jennifer for giving me an opportunity to talk about the subject that is nearest to my heart. Get with the programme you child-haters. The Roman Catholic Church grows because of its views on contraception. The Objectivist Movement needs children to model the manifestation of their parent's message. Parenting rules!

Sharon

Post 27

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 4:58pm

Sharon, there is actually a SOLO Parenting group, which you can access from the home page. There's been quite a bit of discussion there if you're interested.

For the record, I have learned that I am capable of an affinity for children -- it is quite a leap from that to actually wanting ones of my own. I think many Objectivists focus on career, which is why children are not in such abundance in these here parts.

It is of no concern to me whether or not I contribute to the "movement" by leaving children behind to continue my message. In fact, I find that to be a dangerous reason for having children to begin with. If I come to decide that I want to have one, it will need to be for the right reasons. I still don't know what those might be, however. With children like this around, for the moment I'm happy to enjoy their presence.

P.S. Thank you, MSK. Boy, you are lording those sanction points around like a righteous Guv'nah. LOL :)

(Edited by Jennifer Iannolo on 6/11, 5:00pm)

Post 28

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 12:30am

Aw, Ash:

"good morning miss Ashley!"

[pant] if only I could start my morning with that line ;-)

You wouldn't even have to return the salutation by calling me Sir, Master or M'Lord, or anything... (as I usually require)

Ross
(Edited by Ross Elliot
on 6/12, 12:31am)

Post 29

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 12:47am

Further, I hope everyone on this thread has read their Montessori?

"The Discovery of the Child" & "The Secret of Childhood" will not only leave you with the certitude that the child does indeed make the man, but that a rational instruction of the young mind is the progenitor of an ebullient SOL*.

Ross

*that's Sense of Life, people :-)

Post 30

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 6:56am

Sir Ross wrote:

"Further, I hope everyone on this thread has read their Montessori?"

Just last March as I was starting at the school, I did read "The Absorbent Mind" and "The Secret of Childhood." I thought they were wonderful. I also read a book about Waldorf education, which I hadn't heard so much about but also sounded interesting. Does anyone have comment about Waldorf?

Ross, the "Good Morning miss Ashley" bit is only the beginning of my good mornings. These babies are also in the habit of running up for a hug, a kiss, and an "I love you!" at circle time. I felt weird about it at first, but sometimes I feel like it might be the only time they get it.

Every day, the bus comes back to school to bring us children who had noone at home to meet them when they were meant to be dropped off. I wonder what effect on the psyche this has, at four, to come back to your teacher because your family forgets about you sometimes. I want them to feel love in our school.

But alas, the school is closing on June 24, so only a couple more weeks to continue this experiment.

Post 31

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 10:37am

These babies are also in the habit of running up for a hug, a kiss, and an "I love you!" at circle time. I felt weird about it at first...

Ashley, I had to laugh when I read this! When I taught my second cooking class for nursery schoolers (last year), this beautiful little girl ran up to me and said, "Jen, I just have to give you a hug" and wrapped her arms around my knees. At first I was taken aback, but then melted. (Of course, I was also wondering how in hell I managed to evoke that in a small child -- such is the power of food.) :)

I'm starting a 6-week class next month. I've found that in the classroom, cooking, is the only way I've really been able to "bond" with wee ones. Kids are a lot of fun when they're allowed to play with their food. Of course, going into this next project, I asked the director if the kids were well behaved. If one of them gets out of line I'll have to squirt them with ketchup or something. But they'd probably like it. :/

Post 32

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 12:50pm

Squirt them the pickling-strength acetic acid then...

:-)

Post 33

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 12:58pm

...with a dash of habanero peppers...

:-) :-)

Post 34

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 7:15am

A lovely article, Jennifer. And now I'm going to say something that is utterly bromidic, but probably it's a bromide because it's true: there are few things in this world as beautiful as the laughter of a child. Their laughter is totally unrestrained, they seem to laugh with their whole bodies and their whole souls, they give themselves up to it completely. If only we adults could do as well!

Barbara

Post 35

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 8:38am

Barbara,

I agree with you 100%! One of the fringe benefits of being a parent is the opportunity to hear that laughter all the time! Not to mention, the opportunity to participate in it. I laugh frequently throughout the day. I can't say I did that before kids.

~Jenn

Post 36

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 1:40pm

Jennifer,

Forgive me for my vaguery. I didn't mean that you or any Objectivists should actually birth children; only that they should have respect for them and thus be concerned with their care and development. Remember that old commercial about a child's mind being a terrible thing to waste? I liked your interesting point regarding the decision-making process behind what motivates one to want to become a parent at all; quite different from merely allowing a child to be conceived and then deciding to let it live to term. Thank you. Sharon

Post 37

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 3:16pm

> On the other hand, two children (probably young teens to
> be exact) outside my local newsagent Thursday morning
> enquired as to whether I would mind procuring tobacco from
> the newsagent on their behalf, and proceeded to address me
> with a slang term pertaining to female genitalia when I
> politely declined to co-operate. Drowning at birth's a tad
> over the top ;-) But they of course are a whole
> different matter...

Matthew, I hope you were paying attention in your dealings with them, as we were discussing a similar event on the WarriorTalk forum, where events panned out in a much more sinister fashion.

A few weeks ago a woman shopping at a liquor store with her husband was asked by some young teenagers to buy them some drinks, as they were prohibited by doing so by law.

She refused politely; they attacked her.

Her husband came to her defense with a pocket knife (if memory serves correctly, a small, cheap model with a blade ~ 2 inches long).

He killed one of her attackers and drove the rest off, who were arrested not long afterwards. Sadly, his actions were too late to prevent his wife from winding up in hospital, in critical care.

Not all children are raised like Livy :-(
(Edited by Duncan Bayne
on 6/15, 3:19pm)

(Edited by Duncan Bayne
on 6/15, 3:19pm)

Post 38

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 9:09pm