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Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 5:41amSanction this postReply
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Terrific article Luke! I think one aspect not mentioned explicitly in the article is what to do about personal likes or dislikes that fall outside of moral evaluation. Suppose I like someone for personal reasons, but find them to be morally wanting. I could simply have nothing to do with them or I could structure the relationship so that I benefit from what I like without harm to myself or others or compromising my integrity. Similarly, if I dislike someone for personal reasons, I am unlikely to want to interact with them regardless of their moral status.

Jim


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Post 1

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 6:05amSanction this postReply
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At the 1995 IOS Summer Seminar, Carolyn Ray gave an interesting presentation entitled "Friendship and Love". One of the interesting exercises in that presentation was "Graphing your Friends". One axis was breadth and the other axis was depth. She mentioned that she had a running partner for a friend who was a Marxist and that she only wanted to see him with his running shoes on.

Given some of the moralizing issues in the Objectivist movement, I try to increase the breadth of my friendships within Objectivism beyond philosophy. That way if I have a serious disagreement, I simply interact with the person based on my remaining shared values. That also allows the disagreement to incubate and migrate over time so that in my continued experience with the friend I may come to understand the disagreement differently or even come to agree.

Jim


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Post 2

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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Rand spoke quite clearly on this issue in ONL April 1962.  She said that one should not be like a missionary running about saving everyone's soul, nor giving unsolicited moral appraisals of everyone one meets.

. . .one must speak up in situations where silence can objectively be taken to mean agreement with or sanction of evil.  When one deals with irrational persons, where argument is futile, a mere 'I don't agree with you' is sufficient to negate any implication of moral sanction.
emphasis is Rand's.


Post 3

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
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Very nice article, Luke.

This is one more bullet aimed at keeping the moralizing down in Objectivism. Congratulations. You got my sanction.

Jim,
One of the interesting exercises in that presentation was "Graphing your Friends".
Noooooooooooooooooooo...

To borrow an image from a post by Ed Thompson to me...

I hear something... A rumbling...
No, whispers... No, it's voices in the distance...
I think I understand... I can almost make it out...
It's getting closer... What are they saying?

Don't encourage him.

//;-)

Michael


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Post 4

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison quoted Ayn Rand as saying:
When one deals with irrational persons, where argument is futile, a mere 'I don't agree with you' is sufficient to negate any implication of moral sanction.
How does one handle family reunions populated with persons of statist leanings?

Perhaps by not attending them!

Your thoughts?  I can just imagine the argumentation that can ensue:

UNCLE: We need to stop Wal-Mart!  That Sam Walton was a greedy bastard!  There ought to be a law against that!
ME: I don't agree with you.
UNCLE: What?  How could you not agree?  Look at all the Mom and Pop shops he put out of business!  He just sucked all the life blood out of downtown!
ME: Well, it would take me hours to explain all the mistakes in your thinking, but perhaps I can recommend a book or two instead.
UNCLE: Bullshit!  You young whipper snappers, you think you know everything!  You'll get yours ... you'll see ...
MOM: Now, boys, can't we all just get along?

Good grief.  I think purpose matters here.  I do not attend family reunions to argue politics, but just to share the good and loving memories I built when growing into an adult around these people.  I will exorcise the ghost of Ayn Rand from the meeting hall and keep my opinions to myself.  I see my many aunts, uncles, cousins and other relatives too seldom already without turning myself into an aggravation when I do make an appearance.

If the context were a town hall meeting on a referendum about Wal-Mart in which I chose to participate, then of course I would prepare well to present my case.

As a side note, a buddy of mine and I in 2001 stopped at the family reunion on my mother's side as part of a longer road trip.  Afterwards, I found his assessment amusing and it made me appreciate my family even more:

"You have a cool family!  Everyone got along, nobody got drunk and there wasn't a single fist fight!"

Suffice it to say he had the misfortune of growing up in a "dysfunctional" family.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 6/12, 12:51pm)


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Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 12:57pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

LOL :-). Carolyn also talked a lot about Nathaniel Branden's idea of psychological visibility and essential similarities and complementary differences as presented in the Psychology of Romantic Love. So it wasn't a left-brain dominated presentation :-).

Jim


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Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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Awesome article! WHO CARES if someone holds incorrect ideas and your interests are not cross as a result? The greatest gift you can bestow upon someone is correct their thinking, because it is a permanent gift! Why do other O'ists think they must beat others over the head with it?

Setzer's point is also the key to actually spreading O'ism, rather than keeping it a tiny little cult.

Post 7

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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Nice job, Luke. It's akin to the theme of my recorded lecture "The Value-Seeking Personality": Life is about gaining and keeping values, not about "being virtuous" or broadcasting moral judgments as ends in themselves.

Post 8

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent article.  I particularly liked your point about justice as an aspect of relationship-building.  That properly practicing justice is fundamentally inseparable from practicing independence - brava.

Post 9

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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Ironically, these browbeating techniques only work on persons of a dependent mindset.  A person who manifests the Objectivist virtue of independence will quite properly respond to such a scathing ad hominem critique of his well-reasoned judgment with the five words that spell liberation: "I do not need you."

These words particularly rang true for me. There's a fine line to be drawn - feedback from others is an essential part of obtaining an objective view of yourself. In the end though, no one knows you better than you know yourself.  And in that regard, I've had occasion a number of times to tell people to shove it when I could see their"feedback" was nothing short of abuse.


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Post 10

Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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"80% of all human wisdom is minding your own goddamn business."

- Jubal Harshaw, Stranger in a Strange Land


Post 11

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 1:23amSanction this postReply
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Wonderful article Luke, and I agree entirely with your argument.

As I've written elsewhere, I was for many years a Christian before discovering Rand. Several of my friends now are Christians I know from back then. I never saw any need to end the friendships or otherwise reject them just over that.

MH


Post 12

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Robert Davison quoted Ayn Rand as saying:

When one deals with irrational persons, where argument is futile, a mere 'I don't agree with you' is sufficient to negate any implication of moral sanction.
How does one handle family reunions populated with persons of statist leanings?

Perhaps by not attending them!
I think what Rand is saying is, attend if you get some value out of it, but limit angst by simply saying 'I don't agree" rather than trying to change minds. Some minds won't change.

 


Post 13

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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Luther, as I told you in private, I liked this article.  Your warnings against the unproductiveness of moralizing is an important point.  Let me just add another point from my SOLOC4 speech.  When moralizing is seen to be so important to life, there's a tendency to interpret the ethical system in a way that lends itself to moralizing.  It can be interpreted as having very clear and definitive answers about being "moral" or "immoral".  Moral rules (vs. principles) is one such example.  An ethics that makes moral pronouncements easy is not the same as one that makes life easy.  And when interpreting an ethics, the goal of the ethics can't help but change one's understanding of it.  You really have to choose.  Is your goal to live your life productively, or to judge other people?  Your article makes the right choice.

I did mention privately that I had some issues.  Your diagram of core values and virtues in particular catches my attention.  For instance, the placement of the virtues.  Do you think you can achieve the Self-Esteem without independence, justice, honesty, and integrity?  And how about Purpose?  The breakup is a little confusing.  I can't see how you can achieve any value without rationality or productiveness.  I realize this isn't the point of your article, and it doesn't detract the slightest bit from it.  It's just more of a curiosity thing.  I can see why Rand picks three important values to give special mention, since they're so important.  I can see how with those three values, there are three virtues that in particular deal with them. But drawing them like this gives an impression of exclusivity, or that the virtues are aimed solely at those values.  But I know how you love charts!

Excellent article, though.  Of the people I've talked to, I think you've got one of the best practical understandings of Objectivist ethics precisely because you always focus on how to put it into practice to achieve values.  I'd be happy to see more articles like this from you.


Post 14

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 5:38amSanction this postReply
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Joe asked:
Your diagram of core values and virtues in particular catches my attention.  For instance, the placement of the virtues.  Do you think you can achieve the Self-Esteem without independence, justice, honesty, and integrity?  And how about Purpose?  The breakup is a little confusing. 
I basically just attempted to outline how Ayn Rand articulated the values and virtues in her essay "The Objectivist Ethics" in The Virtue of Selfishness.  The outline attempts to show the necessity of all those itemized values and virtues for supporting a flourishing human life.  In a sense, they also rank in order of importance, e.g., earning authentic self-esteem requires the effective pursuit of a productive purpose, which in turn relies on the effective use of reason.  Of course, the desire for gaining self-esteem also motivates one to use reason in the first place.  So a cyclical relationship exists among the three as I explained here.

I like how BB&T states this:
These values are consistent with one another and are integrated. To fully act on one of these values, you must also act consistently with the other values. Our focus on values grows from our belief that ideas matter and that an individual's character is of critical significance.
Joe also stated:
I'd be happy to see more articles like this from you.
Thank you for the compliments.  I intend to do more of these as the ideas strike me.  Some insights come to me much more lucidly than others.  This one drew from much experience and early confusions whose wrong-headedness I learned the hard way.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 6/16, 7:56am)


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Post 15

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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I like your article very much, Luke. I'd like to point out another problem involved in moralizing: that very often, we do not possess the knowledge necessary to pass moral judgments, even in our own minds. Some actions people take make judging easy: if I rob a bank, you are safe in assuming that immorality is involved. If I don't agree with your opinions -- and I am mistaken -- you cannot assume, as unfortunately many Objectivists do, that I am immoral. I may be mistaken, confused, misled, uninformed, etc, and you need to know a great deal about me to decide which of these is the case. It is not always easy to know, even about oneself, if certain of our ideas and actions were the result of honest confusion or if they were colored by a desire not to recognize the truth; how much more difficult it is to know this about others.

There's no point in saying that one MUST always pronounce moral judgments. In fact and in reason, one cannot and should not always do so.

Barbara

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Friday, June 17, 2005 - 3:00pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara noted:
It is not always easy to know, even about oneself, if certain of our ideas and actions were the result of honest confusion or if they were colored by a desire not to recognize the truth; how much more difficult it is to know this about others.
I have my own practical "spin" on this I call "the arsenic test":

Whether a person feeds me arsenic by honest error or malevolent intent, his action still kills me.

In other words, I judge a person and his actions based on their benefit or detriment to me.  An incompetent can kill me just as readily as a malefactor can.  Since my practice of morality serves the function of preserving and advancing my own life, I can judge a given relationship as "good for me" or "bad for me" regardless of the benevolence or malevolence of the other party.  In a sense, I do pass a form of "moral judgment" when I judge a person as unworthy of a particular relationship, though not in the same way many Objectivists mean.

We all probably  know people who mean well enough and might actually have decent characters yet have so little happening "upstairs" that interacting with them detracts from our happiness and possibly even our health.  Judging those people in context as "good for me" or "bad for me" remains a moral paramount if one wants to flourish.

I agree with you that attempting to know a person's character well enough to ascertain his psychological errors or evasions can prove more challenging than many Objectivists will admit.  Fortunately, we do not need to engage in such deep probing most of the time in order to flourish.  Simple discretion with respect to one's own well-being will usually suffice.


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Post 17

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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Luke, nice article. I agree with your main point. I have only one clarification to offer. You wrote:

"Objectivists from a religious background often make the mistake of attempting to apply justice as an out-of-context "all or nothing" virtue and to engage in the same sort of dogmatic moralizing in which their church ministers engaged.  These acts may make their practitioners feel good for the moment, but they seldom serve long-range self-interest.  Such actions distract the focus of the practitioner away from improving himself and towards attempting to change others through highly ineffective means.  In effect, this misapplication of justice leads to an others-centered world view rather than a self-centered one.  It places the locus of control on "them" instead of on "me.""

If I recall correctly, Rand advocated not a "self-centered" world view, but a ~reality-centered~ world view. (I think this was stated in "Causality vs. Duty.") It is true that one's real control in life is with oneself, not over others; and it is also true that in one's efforts to control others, one runs the risk of losing control over one's self (perhaps even losing one's self per se).  So, in that respect, you are correct. But we should avoid the false dichotomy of thinking that either our world revolves around others, or it revolves around ourselves. Our world ~just is~. It is our job to decide whether we want to accurately know the world and act accordingly, including our actions toward others. By focusing or centering on reality, we come to realize that there are things we can change and things we cannot change, and that we should focus on the former and let go of the latter. If we do that, ~then~ we arrive at the realization that the fundamental opportunity for change is within ourselves. So, self-focused efforts for change presuppose a reality-focus, rather than either a self- or other-focus.

Roger Bissell



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Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 4:33amSanction this postReply
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Roger, I appreciate your clarification and I agree with it.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 4:59amSanction this postReply
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For some reason this article popped into my head as I was thinking about its topic of arguing about "best" decisions. I am not sure if I conveyed this insight so I wanted to share it now. One problem with arguing with others about "best" decisions such as which college to attend or which career to choose involves the presumptuousness of knowing the soul of another. There is an ethical component to these since one's life is one's own ultimate value.

For instance, as an "outlier" example, suppose you have an adult daughter who decides to pursue a career as a courtesan at a legal brothel. You might have a very low opinion of this career, argue until you are blue in the face, and perhaps even attempt steps to block her transition to Nevada to commence this career. In the end, you presume to know your daughter's soul better than she knows it. Perhaps you should just let her make her own decisions to acquire intimate knowledge rather than presume to know her as well as you pretend to know her.

On a much more conventional level, at least in general American society, women still face barriers to entering male-dominated fields from the people closest to them. A young Mormon acquaintance of mine whom I have informally mentored over the Internet on occasion through some challenging "Early College" courses nearly had her dreams dashed by her own family. They condemned her as "prideful" for wanting to pursue a career in engineering and eventually kicked her from the house, leaving her stranded except for a caring friend who let her spend ten months at her house until she could escape to a Mormon university in another state on a full scholarship. The women in her own family presumed to know her soul well enough to wish her to abandon college, get married, and have multiple children as they did. Naturally, I encouraged her to stand as an individual against the collective and shared plenty of counterexamples of female Mormon engineers found via Google. She is now doing well in her first term in engineering at the university as one of only two women in the entire class.

My point is that sometimes people make decisions that make no sense to us only because we are not they. We do not share their backgrounds, their genetics, or their natural preferences. Without sliding into subjectivist ethics, I want to caution all to respect the nature of the individual as unique and that uniqueness as sacred even if we cannot immediately make sense of their motives and actions.

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