RoR: Forum

There was a favorite movie orgy on SOLO awhile back in which I didn't participate, so I'll take the opportunity here to offer my "not obvious" (ie, not Hitchcock) top 4:

1. Who's Afraid of Virgina Woolf? -- Ingenius
2. Witness for The Prosecution (1957) -- There isn't an Objectivist in the world who won't enjoy this film. Take that as a gaurantee.
3. Sleuth (starring Lawrence Olivia and Michael Cane)
4. Shot In the Dark -- The best of the Pink Panthers, and slap-stick comedy at its best. I say that as someone who does not usually like slap-stick.

(Edited by Alec Mouhibian
on 6/16, 4:11am)

Post 1

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 4:33am

I have to disagree with Peter's list.

But I agree with this point in general.

No movies starring George Clooney, Julia Roberts, Brad Pitt, Nicole Kidman or anyone from the Sheen family. Or pop stars (with the exception of ‘Hard Day’s Night).’

Here are some of my favourites:

1) Planet of tha Apes (1968).
Love how the spooky music score matches the mood of the film.
Great highlight is when Charlton Heston finally gets his voice back when being restrained like an animal and shouts at the Gorilla, "Get your dirty paws off me you god damn dirty ape!"

2) Taxi Driver (1976).
Again the music matches the mood of the film perfectly.
I was blown away by the surprise ending. There is an underlying morality to this film not revealed until the end.

3) Dr. Strangelove (1963).
Hilarious. Great acting by Peter Sellers.
Favourite line is when the President says when a scuffle breaks out between an American General and the Russian Ambassador, "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room".

4) The Sound of Music (1965).
Perfect. What else can one say. Wonderful sense of life.

5) Cast Away (2000).
I only recently saw this film for the first time, but I wouldn't mind seeing it again. It has a wonderful sense of life.

Oh yeah. Also, 12 Angry Men (1957) and Young Frankenstein (1974).

(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 6/16, 4:37am)

Post 2

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 5:58am

I too agree with your general point here Peter, and thanks to Alec and Marcus for their own lists - though I disagree with some of the choices expressed by all of you, but that's partly because I haven't seen some of these movies :-)

One particular query to Peter though: what do you have against Die Hard? Sure it's heavy on the action but the plot is a cut above most contemporary action flicks (not least McClane's repeated exercise of brain power to figure out various situations). Granted it isn't anywhere near the sophistication of Leone's Dollars but still...

MH

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 6/16, 5:59am)

Post 3

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 6:07am

Oh! I don't remember ordering any pizza... :)

what do you have against Die Hard? Sure it's heavy on the action but the plot is a cut above most contemporary action flicks (not least McClane's repeated exercise of brain power to figure out various situations).

McLane can't beat the likes of early-series MacGyver when it comes to brain-powered solutions.

Post 4

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 11:14am

Well, I must confess to liking the recent Spiderman and X-men movies, Tim Burton's Batmans and the first two Supermans with Christopher Reeve. But then, I always was a comic book geek. Does that betray a malevolent sense of life? Didn't think so.
Other than that, I agree with Peter's "Sharp Test", and most of the points he makes.

Among my faves, I'd list Casablanca, Sean Connery's 007 films (except for Thunderball - ugh), Wolfgang Peterson's Das Boot, Mel Brooks' The Producers, National Lampoon's Animal House, Ingmar Bergman's Wild Strawberries, The Princess Bride, Monty Python's Life of Brian, and among recent films, October Sky, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Amelie, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, and The Lord of the Rings (yeah, yeah, I love it. Shut up!).
But I'll give my reasons for these in another post. Because I feel like it.

Post 5

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 1:44pm

What's the obvious Objectivist canon you mentioned in your earlier article? Of my own top several I've never seen Objectivist mention, favorable or not, of "Shanghai Express" or "Some Like it Hot". The first, at least, would seem to fit the formula.

Peter

Post 6

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 4:12pm

Let’s see Peter C’s Ten Rules for movie sharpness:

· The ten-minute test. Check.

· Plot. Check.

· No coming-of-age movies. Check.

· No movies starring George Clooney, Julia Roberts, Brad Pitt, Nicole Kidman

Exceptions:

George Clooney – O Brother, Where Art Thou?

Julia Roberts – Erin Brochovich

Brad Pitt - Thelma & Louise

Nicole Kidman – Dead Calm

· Anything with David Mamet – Who is David Mamet?

· No high-school romances/sports stories/problems in class etc

Exception – Dead poet society

· Black and white. Check.

· No gun fights/sword fights/car chases/explosions.

Exception – The “Alien” movies.

· Goodies and baddies are for cartoons

Just remembered - Exception - Silence of the Lamb

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 6/16, 4:15pm)

Post 7

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 4:24pm

Hong, I see you're invoking Rule Nine. Well done. :-)

As for 'Silence of the Lambs' and other sick shit, I added a slight edit to the Sharp Test on my blog* which would rule it out (and you can see the Rule Numbers there too):

10. GOODIES & BADDIES ARE FOR CARTOONS (and don’t bother with that childish Spider Man/Batman/Hulk/Arnie crap on film either, unless you’ve either just got to the head of the lobotomy waiting list and you want to show off, or you watch coming-of-age movies to pick up tips for the future). The best, most intelligent drama sets good against good, the worst sets good against psycho, sicko with a grudge or serial killer.

Psychos and sickos makes for cartoon viewing and poor drama; good-against-good makes for really good plot conflict, out of which real, memorable drama develops. Unfortunately, while there's a slew of good novels like this I can’t remember the last time I saw a film which adopts this technique. Perhaps I should eschew film-watching and just read a good book.

*[UPDATE: HTML not working, so here's the link to the revised blog posting: http://pc.blogspot.com/2005/06/sharp-test-for-films.html ]

(Edited by Peter Cresswell on 6/16, 6:47pm)

Post 8

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 5:01pm

MH, you said, "One particular query to Peter though: what do you have against Die Hard? Sure it's heavy on the action but the plot is a cut above most contemporary action flicks."

There's a plot?

Post 9

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 6:37pm

Peter,
"Alien" scared the crap out of me, but I couldn't help and had to watch "Aliens" and "Alien 3". Though not my usual cup of tea, I think they are all excellent. They are Sci-fi/horror/action. I thought they should marginally fit your rule #8. :-)

So I take that you don't like Silence of the Lambs?

btw, your link above doesn't seem to work.

Hong

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 6/16, 7:57pm)

Post 10

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 6:49pm

Hong, you asked, "So I take that you don't like Silence of the Lambs?"

Um, no.

"Btw, your link above doesn't seem to work."

Thanks. Amended to work now. Ta. :-)

Post 11

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 9:37pm

David Mamet is a very successful playwright who became a very successful screenwriter. He also directs and has an unusual set of ideas about how to act. Of films he wrote, I recommend "The Edge" and "Spartan" for starters if you like action movies.

John

Post 12

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 10:07pm

I must say that I also liked Sleepers and Twilight. They both fall in one or two of the categories, but are still worth watching.

Post 13

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 10:45pm

The list changes all the time, but:

1) 'The Third Man' - Carol Reed mind-melds with Orson Welles for the greatest film of all time. Special effects by Graham Greene.
2) 'Lawrence of Arabia' - Lean rules. Could also have been 'Brief Encounter'.
3) 'Blowout' - Brian DePalma. Hard choice between this and 'Casualties of War' or 'Carlito's Way'. Cinema wound up all the way to 11.
4) 'The Birds' - Hitchcock puts a formal frame around a primal nightmare. Scary in every sense.
5) 'A.I.' - Spielberg's insanely maligned classic about the rarest thing in the universe. The ending *is the best part*.
6) 'Aguirre, Wrath of God' - Herzog, going where no filmmaker goes before or since. Check that soundtrack.
7) 'Mean Streets' - Easily Scorsese's most imitated movie. Which is saying something.
8) 'Unfaithfully Yours' - Preston Sturges.They just *do not* make them like this. Not even the Coens.
9)'Breathless' - I guess this must have been what it felt like to be hip in the '60s
10) 'His Girl Friday' - Grant, Russell, Hawks and Hecht. What else could you want?

Other than the odd gem, like Bob Zemeckis's beautiful "What Lies Beneath', Mr Cresswell is right:most contemporary Hollywood filmmaking is insanely bad, full of Michael Bays and Brett Ratners not Scorseses or Altmans. The odd new kid with an angle comes through, like with 'Lost In Translation' or 'Napoleon Dynamite'. But it doesn't seem all that sustainable. When Tarantino tried to make a serious movie it just didn't work. Maybe cinema is a really a 20th century thing, like the novel was really a 19th century thing. We'll see.

- Daniel

Post 14

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 4:39am

Peter,

There's a plot?

Very very rough outline: McClane goes to his estranged wife's office building in the hope of fixing their problems, there's a big get together of the company's guys going on so McClane waits alone for his wife, bunch of terrorists hijack the place (not knowing that McClane is there) and purport to be holding people hostage, McClane decides to go rescue everyone.

;-)

MH

Post 15

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 2:00pm

No coming of age films/high school flicks? Is this objective truth ;): Rushmore, Y tu mama tambien, City of God, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Dazed and Confused, If..., Harold and Maude to name just a few great movies.

No movies starring George Clooney, Julia Roberts, Brad Pitt, Nicole Kidman or anyone from the Sheen family. Or pop stars (with the exception of ‘Hard Day’s Night.’

Clooney check, Roberts, check, Sheens, yes except the older one in Apocalpse Now. Pop Stars, generally true, though David Bowie has had some good roles (Basquiat) and Marky Mark has done some good stuff, some decent rap star performances.

Pitt and Kidman -- I don't like everything they've done by any means, but they are pretty solid actors -- 12 monkeys, To Die For, etc.

No gun fights/sword fights/car chases/explosions. Now, I don’t mean films like ‘The Longest Day’ or ‘A Fistful of Dollars’ here.

or apparently like 100 other films that mix an intelligent film with violence -- Clockwork Orange, Hard Boiled, Unforgiven, every Steve McQueen film ever made, ever, Kill Bill, Straw Dogs, Apocalpyse Now, Braveheart. And the Longest Day sucks. Bruce Willis has done some great work before as well and DieHard numero uno wasn't bad.

Favorite Films:

O'luckyMan (1973) Malcolm McDowell, unavailable on DVD in the US except through priated films from a rare laser disc version -- directed by Lindsay Anderson (Sporting Life) -- the adventures of a coffee salesman -- too bad its disappeared largely, easily the best british film I've ever seen.

American Beauty
Brazil
The Big Lebowski
Waking Life
Raging Bull
Cyrano de B -- the Gerrard depardieu version
Blazing Saddles
The Apostle
Anything by Almodovar

There are a lot of great films being made of late, but I don't add them to the list until I've seen them a good 5 or 6 times

Can I get an article about why I don't like olives on here? And does anyone still go to the videostore?

Post 16

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 3:22pm

Daniel-

"'A.I.' - Spielberg's insanely maligned classic about the rarest thing in the universe. The ending *is the best part*."

You have got to explain this to me then! I place AI among the worst films I've seen in recent years, maybe one step above the 'My god! How could I have wasted that two hours of my life?!' category containing atrocities like 'Independence Day', 'Armegeddon' and 'Eyes Wide Shut'.

Through the bulk of the film, I thought the sci-fi world unconvincing and the plot uninteresting and slow. I got up to walk out of the theater when he was slowly dying underwater while chanting hopefully, as I thought the movie was over. If it had, it would not be on my favorite movie list, but I'd have at least respected it for effectively delivering such a bleak fatalistic theme.

Then ... surprise! You get another 15 minutes of drug-trip/2001-deja-vu with a gangly Teletubby!! I hoped I just missed something that tied it all together and made it make sense in some profound way, but couldn't come up with anything. If you know the secret and how the ending belongs, please share.

Post 17

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 5:36pm

Mathew, you've confused a plot with a story.

A plot is an artistic arrangment of events which taken in sum presents a point of view, or a stylised version of existence.

A story by contrast is simply a sequence of events in chronological order. Unless you're Tarantino. Or post-modern. But I repeat myself.

A spectacle is different again. Aristotle himself observed derisively, “the production of spectacular effects depends more on the art of the stage machinist than on that of the poet.” I think you'll find that 'Die Hard' et al is more spectacle than story -- the story is just a connected series of events that get you to the explosions: Soap opera with semtex.

;^)

Post 18

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 5:56pm

There's lots of good suggestions here, for which I thank you all. Maybe things aren't as bad as I say, eh? ;^)

However ... some general comments ...

'Taxi Driver' - sick psycho falls in love, goes mad. Uugh. Rule Twelve. Out.

Luke, comic book geeks are of course quite welcome to make up their own lists, as long as the constituents of said list are not confused with adult art. :-) That said, I like all your adult choices (apart that is from 'Dragon' and 'Rings').

Peter R., "the obvious Objectivist canon" is -- or ~was~ when I wrote that list -- films like 'We the Living' and 'Fountainhead,'and also newbies like Dead Poets,' 'Braveheart,' etc. Robert Bidinotto has a list of them somewhere or other. Ask him nicely and I'm sure he can give you the list. 'Shanghai Express' looks the part, but I ain't seen it. Yet. Thanks for the recommendation.

Daniel, did I mention my 'No Spielberg' rule? p^) And 'Mean Streets' on its own almost inspired a 'No Scorcese' rule. Such a dross-filled plot-free meander through the lives of a bunch of losers I've never seen. Except perhaps for Clooney's 'Brother, Where the Hell Are You.' 'Lawrence' we've beaten around the head before for its boredom. Other than that, the list looks good.

Mick, I'm afraid most of the movies you list as objections only prove my point. :-)

So, who the hell am I to tell you what to like anyway? I'm very glad you asked. ;^P

Post 19

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 6:55pm