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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 1:45amSanction this postReply
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Magnificent mini-manifesto, Marty. Real KASS! I was on sabbatical when you came on board, so let me take this opportunity now to offer a rationally exuberant SOLO welcome. :-) And keep those articles coming!!

Linz

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Post 1

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 2:56amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Lindsay. It's an honor to be a member of Solo!

-Marty  


Post 2

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 4:04amSanction this postReply
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Multiculturalism is a trap with which anti-American, leftist professors can downplay Western achievements.

Not just that, it is also a way that other cultures can evade their shortcomings and try to feel superior.

They can say, "actually we are a superior culture - because we discovered mathematics, gunpowder, computers, irrigation - while you westerners were still living in caves."

All one can reply to that is:

Get a grip! You did not invent these things, your ancestors did. Your culture may have developed into something as great as western culture, but instead your present culture burnt all it's inventors and men of genius at the stake and enslaved men's minds with religion and superstition. Your culture is now tribalistic, backwards and fucked! Don't pretend all of a sudden to be better than the west.

Your culture and ideology still has real flaws. Learn something from the present superiority of the west! Deal with it!


Post 3

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 4:40amSanction this postReply
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Great article Marty!

Also, western pride does not deny the benefits of older cultures such as the wonderful oral tradition and music of the Celtic culture, practical use of meditation and yoga without the mystical trappings, and others. However, it is possible to recognize those things for what they are worth relative to Western achievements and they pale in comparison.

Jim


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Post 4

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 6:38amSanction this postReply
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As somebody who actually grew up in a different culture (Chinese and Communism), I must say that common American people (or perhaps common Westerners) in general are very ignorant about non-western people and cultures. If you don’t know much about a particular culture, in particular about the context of that culture, then of course it won’t make sense to either respect it or condemn it. For example, for those Westerners who have a soft spot for Communism to this day, I wonder are they simply evading reality?

 

And I even sensed some ignorance in this article. For example,

 

Western religion made peace with the modern world (as few other faiths did—consider Islam)....


 

The Eastern religions such as Buddhism have always made peace with the earthly world. Unlike the Western history that’s littered with many bloody religious wars, there has never been major wars in Eastern Asia throughout the history that’s fought in the name of religion. And there has never been government persecution of religion either, except in the time of Communism.

 

And,

I am a proud American who loves math and science, technology, prosperity, freedom, Western medicine, skyscrapers, and jets, while acknowledging that most cultures emphasize none of these things.

 

Not exactly true. Again, context matters. Ever since middle school, virtually everything that we learnt in science from algebra to quantum mechanics is developed by the Westerners. And we are suckers of them. Just look around and see those science wizard Asian American kids in school, and all those foreign scientists and engineers working in American academia and industry. Of course we love those things probably even more than common Americans. Are Asian kids actually smarter than American kids, hell, no. It is in part because of the culture and tradition that we brought here in this Land of Free that fostered our kids to excel in school, and in science.

 

So, blanket Multiculturalism or blanket Western Pride, neither is valid.

 

Hong

 

 
PS. Marcus, your post reads really funny. I can say the same thing to you: You didn't invent Newton's laws, Newton did. So why are you so proud? Be proud of something that you actually did.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 8/20, 9:47am)


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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 7:05amSanction this postReply
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Marcus, your post reads really funny. I can say the same thing to you: You didn't invent Newton's laws, Newton did. So why are you so proud? Be proud of something that you actually did.

Hong,

That is why I emphasised what the situation is "now"!

Did China or Africa or the Middle East invent the internet?

Look to what those cultures are producing now. Not what they have done in the past.

Of course there is still room for criticism of western culture as well.

However, Asian cultures has thrived recently only because they copied the western culture and allowed more personal freedom and freedom in the economy. These were not their values previously.


Post 6

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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Marty: Don't let Hong Zhang's pinpricking get to you. For what it's worth, *I* loved your article. (And Hong: Before you start assuming I'm another ignorant Westerner, I'm well versed in various Asian cultures - especially that of Korea, where I've been living for nearly five years.)

I especially liked this sentence: "I will be ethnocentric until the other world cultures abandon ignorance, superstition, tribalism, collectivism, totalitarianism, massive corruption, and ethnic cleansing."

Three cheers, Marty!

(Edited by Derek McGovern on 8/20, 7:44am)


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Post 7

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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What is "western culture"? There are Judism, Christianity, philosophies of ancient Greeks, Renaissance, modern sciences, ideas of Democracy, Capitalism, Objectivism, etc., there are also Imperialism, Marxism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, Nazism, and now post-modernism, etc., etc. Shall we cherry-pick?

Prosperity and freedom are certainly not loved only by the westerners or western cultures. Prosperity in particular is at the very core of traditional Chinese values. Skyscrapers? Look at Shanghai! 

This is such a broad topic that a blanket treatment just won't do. 

Marcus, if we emphasize "now", I'd take individualism vs. everything else.

And I trust that Dr. Lewinter is able to see that an honest and respectful exchange of ideas is just that. Nothing personal.




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Post 8

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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I strongly disagree with Marty's attempt to pin the label Western on what is rightly the Human civilization. From the seventeenth to the nineteenth centuries Western Europe was indeed the center of the Human civilization, but the action was elsewhere before that, and now has moved again. Most of today's new technology comes from Asia, especially Israel, Japan, South Korea, India and China. Relative to Asia, the countries of the traditional center of "Western Civilization" - Germany, Italy and France - are a stagnant swamp. And in the centuries before Thomas Aquinas revived Europe by importing the ideas of Maimonides from North Africa (every last Classical book on the European continent having been burnt by Christianists some centuries earlier) Europe was rightly considered "The Dark Continent" by the Asians and Africans who kept the Human civilization alive.

In time, Asians and Americans will bring the Human Civilization back to the center of Europe. But today, talk of "Western Civilization" is more than slightly anachronistic.

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Post 9

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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I like the article and the spirit behind it. Bravo! One, of course, should stress that one glorifies what is distinctive in Western culture: reason, science, individualism, and capitalism. Obviously Western culture shares with every other culture the same failings: war, irrationality, etc. But on a sustained, explicit, large-scale and lasting basis, Western culture got the solution right – exemplified by the liberal societies of the Anglo-sphere.

 

What was once Hellenic became Western and is on its way to becoming the world-culture. It’s ours if we live up to it – not by birth. Let’s enjoy it.

 

PS. I must correct one mistake of cultural ignorance that I continually see repeated:

“Aquinas revived Europe by importing the ideas of Maimonides from North Africa (every last Classical book on the European continent having been burnt by Christianists some centuries earlier)”

Adam, I am a champion of Aquinas and by implication (and explication) Maimonides and Averroes. However, the works of Aristotle were never lost to Europe or Christendom. Its true Aquinas received translations from the Arab versions. But Muslims didn’t have Greek copies. Would you like to know where we got the original Greek copies of Aristotle? From the Greeks! In 1453, as Constantinople fell, Greek scholars brought to Italy, Greek copies of Aristotle and Plato – including works never before seen. By the way, what continent is Constantinople on? Even in Arab lands, philosophy and science was translated into Arab by mostly Christians and some Jews. It was the non-Muslims who kept those works in existence. But let's give credit to the Muslim scholars (Arab, Persian, Turk, Greek, etc.) who appreciated them (many of them converts, sons of converts, heterodox, or freethinkers.)

 

The great indebtedness to the scholars in Islamic countries (both Islamic, Christian, Jews, Hindu, Zoroastrians, Pagan, etc) is indeed warranted because of the two century jump-start and the help of a genius like Aquinas during a period when the church was open and liberal (as it can be.) You only need to add “Latin” to many of your statements to correct the problem. “Latin” Europe lost Aristotle or “Latin” Christians rejected philosophy.

 


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Post 10

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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Marty,

I loved the spirit of your article, but like Hong and Adam, I take exception to the term "Western."

It is good to write about essential values and the derogatory premise behind much of the use of the word "multiculturalism," but a blanket "Western culture is greater than others" is not precise.

I have spent over 30 years in a culture that is slowly embracing rational ideas (Brazil) and pulling out of a banana republic mentality - with the mysticism and thug mentality which that was built on. But there is a wealth of human values and habits in that country that I would not sacrifice. They are simply too charming (starting with Carnaval).

Rational culture, including passionate rational culture, is the key. You can find it all over the world, not just the west. You can even find it flourishing in New Zealand.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 8/20, 12:21pm)


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Post 11

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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Marty wrote:
American Indians made beautiful blankets—and didn't waste any part of the buffalo, as the cliché goes.
Ah, lordy, what ignorance.  You know where the separation of powers in our government came from?  You won't find it in Europe; European governance is uniformly pyramidal in conception.  The tripartite government was grafted by Ben Franklin from the Iroquois Confederacy.  Our guarantees of personal freedom--of speech, religion, assembly--all indigenous concepts adopted by the founding fathers, again, from the Iroquois Confederacy.  If the PM of England wants to suspend free speech, as Maggie Thatcher did during the Falklands war, he can; there's nothing in their constitution to say he can't.  You know where the English government gets its power?  It's granted by God to the Queen.  You know where our government gets its power?  We, the people.  Also, a Native American tradition.  And that leads to separation of church and state, doesn't it?  And the kicker:  you know why Europeans have never been much into bathing?  Because they didn't have Native American neighbors to set the trend.

America from its infancy was fundamentally multicultural.  But then the tribes were exterminated and there was a huge influx of immigrants from Europe in the 19th century, new Americans who had no knowledge or connection to Native culture.  Interestingly, this influx of Europeanism coincided with the tremendous expansion of Federal power and American government has been getting steadily more and more Europeanized, more and more centralized and pyramidal ever since. 



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Post 12

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

All Classical books in Constantinople were burned when the city was looted by the Crusaders. The Byzantines subsequently acquired replacement copies of manuscripts that were preserved in Asia. By the time the Byzantine copies arrived in Europe the Renaissance was already under way. Whether their late arrival had a significant effect is still questionable.

Post 13

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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Marty said: "Only the West insisted on separation of church and state, guarantees of freedom, an end to slavery (sure, it took a while) and the eradication of imperialism."

Odd you'd say that, considering America was founded in an imperialistic manner. Sure, there was no American government, at the time, but we are talking about culture, right? Unless you would say that those people were Europeans, who transmogrified into Americans? When did "Western Culture" start? When our present culture came and eradicated the existing Western Culture?

I'm no apologist for savages, but I'm certainly no advocate of the taking of land from the native-americans, which Rand seemed to be.


Post 14

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 6:01pmSanction this postReply
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Nice article, Marty. Passionate.

The first inhabitants of my New Zealand, the Maori, were an illiterate, misogynistic, sometimes cannibalistic people who found a land of plenty and thru subsistive hunter-gatherer methods nearly starved themselves to death.

Now, that said, there's nothing I like better than a good Haka, which is a Maori war dance. Our glorious All Black rugby team performs one before every major game. I like it because it evokes passion. I've done a few myself and it's quite a thrill.

I also have a native American rug on my sofa. I like it's geometric and colourful patterns. It makes me feel good to sit on it. I also like some of the architecture of the Middle East and North Africa. The symmetry and simplicity of it is very pleasing to my eye.

As a young objectivist and classical-liberal devotee I often used to reject non-western things out of hand. If it wasn't made of glass and steel & a thousand feet tall or if didn't travel at the speed of sound, I wouldn't contemplate it much at all.

America and her western satellites are vital to the proper philosophical survival of humanity for they are the societies in which classical-liberal values are most developed and respected. They protect, and by example, spread the good word. That said, if you have a healthy mind (ie, you don't suffer from a collectivist-mystical psychosis) then it pays to trust your *sense of life*. If you find an aspect of a non-western culture pleasing or satisfying, then just enjoy it--your SOL will guide you. It's a fantastic bullshit detector. It's true.

Ross


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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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Brandon, how could settlers to America have stolen native lands? This land was held collectively, wasn't it? And by collectively, I don't mean like you and I sitting down, forming a partnership and agreeing to co-sign a real estate purchase. Incorporation in primitive cultures is a very loose concept to the point of not being much of a concept of all.

In my New Zealand we had exactly the same situation with the Maori. The fundamental conflict, and an irreconcilable one, was that a property-owning capitalist culture came up against a collectivist one. The two can't co-exist.

Now, some agreements *were* signed between the state and the original inhabitants, and if those agreements were broken, fair cop, wrong was done. But the general western movement of settlers onto "traditional" lands and the homesteading thereof, can't, as far as I can see, be considered theft.

Ross

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 7:13pmSanction this postReply
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To Marty's critics-  I think you are missing the point or do not understand the point.  The term 'multiculturalism' as used in western(I can at least attest for American) universities is a celebration of the mystical and ignorant.  "Western" is a term used by westerners(at least here in America) as a derogatory term to try and denounce all that each and every one of us at SOLO would find admirable, the things that Marty mentions:

 It criticizes European culture, ignoring its glorious and unparalleled achievements in art, theater, music, mathematics, science, industry, and politics, while extolling cultures which still have not gone past the pre-scientific mentality of a mystic approach to the universe—a naïve belief that events are magical and cannot be understood or predicted.
I don't believe that Marty's argument was against other nationalities, but was instead against those in our own backyard who would denounce the achievements of the west.  Was Marty saying that all Asians for instance are irrational mystics? No.  But that's what the western intelligentsia would have you believe, and not only that but that mysticism should be embraced.  Critics of "western" society would have us believe that instead of modern "western" medicine, Asian cultures, use acupuncture instead of by-pass surgery to cure a clogged artery.  What they are trying to do is denigrate reason and reality, as they've been doing for years, and present mysticism and an anti-mind philosophy as being equally efficacious.  I say to Hong and others that Marty's battle is equally your battle.  As long as you celebrate reason and the ability of man and his mind, you are on the same side of the battlefield.


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Post 17

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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Hong,

Wasn't Japanese imperialism leading up to WW2 militant Shintoism? In fact, many of the principals in Japanese Nichiren Buddhism were imprisoned by the Japanese authorities for their beliefs. Josei Toda, the leader of Nichiren Buddhism was imprisoned for his beliefs. East Asia has had its own share of religious persecution. 

Also, you feel Americans in general are ignorant of other cultures. Which Americans? I have heard Europeans make this claim too, but my opinion is that most people American, European or Asian are ignorant of most cultures. My father was a Latin American historian and he used to joke about the Argentines who talked about "Jorge Washington". He told them: if you insist on calling him that I'll call your liberator "Joe Saint Martin".

Yes, Buddhism has made peace with the Earthly world, but I doubt that it has resulted in much development in those countries in which it has been practiced.

Jim 


Post 18

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

We talk the same language but with different words.

The need to examine the rhetorical problem actually arises not from friends, but from enemies. That is why I (and I imagine Hong and Adam and others) are so picky about the precision of presentation.

Any half-intelligent enemy of reason could make the same objections we made and make them logically stick, but with an entirely different agenda and with a highly destructive effect.

I am a strong advocate of the passion Marty displayed, but when things get so general and across-the-board like his use of the word "Western," the rhetoric is more for preaching to the choir than for convincing anybody of anything they might disagree with.

I happen to use a similar word, "Arabian," for people of Middle-East Islamic culture (and those in other places with roots there), but I usually qualify it by stating that I am using the term in a general manner (and I have paid my dues to do so by being married into that culture for 5 years). So I am not completely against this form of rhetoric. I use it myself.

Maybe something like the following presentation will make what I am talking about a bit clearer:

The concept of [multiculturalism, Western, whatever] should be xxxxxxxxxxxxx and technically it means that. However, the way it is bantered about, it means yyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Give examples to taste, then follow with arguments. That would eliminate a great deal of misunderstanding.

Michael


Edit - James, we crossed posts. In Brazil I personally know a Valdisnei and an Aristone and a few other gems. (The names were given by the parents to pay homage to Walt Disney and Harry Stone)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 8/20, 8:26pm)


Post 19

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

I can only read what’s written in the article and not what’s not there. Perhaps I might have agreed with the gist of what Marty meant to say.  I do agree that, as Jason emphasized, that reason, science, individualism, and capitalism in Western culture is superior to all other world cultures at the moment.

 

However, the last three paragraphs of the article contain some gross generalization and imprecise statements that seriously undermined the intention of the article. Like what Michael SK just said.

 

And I was also rubbed the wrong way by Marcus’ such comment “your present culture burnt all it's inventors and men of genius at the stake and enslaved men's minds with religion and superstition. Your culture is now tribalistic, backwards and fucked!”

 

I certainly do not share such sentiment.

 

Hong



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