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Saturday, October 8, 2005 - 12:16pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for this valuable commentary. Just last week, I heard that the local police had declined to come to the aid of a resident whose parked car was being dismembered for parts by young punks. It turned out the theives were Indians, and the story goes that the police refused to intervene because they feared being hassled by the ACLU.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Tell me if I am incorrect, but it looks like you used a particular scenario as a focal point to reinforce your article; specifically, those where someone has to tell someone else that they are fat, and it's their problem. Forgive my coarsness of description, I'm trying to be direct. Was there any reason you bore focus to that example? I'm just wondering how it came to you, nothing more.

You say:

There used to be a pretty sensible distinction between lashing out at someone for something he or she had no control over—race, sex, height, national origin, etc.—and matters over which the person had or could gain ample control—e. g., how well one speaks a language, how one dresses, one’s hygiene, and so forth.
 
Where is that distinction? Is it clear enough to be enforced? If so, who is to enforce it? This seems presumptive to me. Are their actual "standards"?

Now mind you, I am as big a fan of civility and common manners, courtesy, and so on as the next person. I find it to be a dying art. I swim in the lack of them being applied every day, down to almost a tribal level, given where my office happens to be.

I think that it is more of a problem of people engaged in self-struggle feeding off those that are already in the process of self-struggle. This entire state is very sad. It has always existed in one form or another.

The problem to me is how we speak of it, and still remain respectful to our selves when doing so. All this is very delicate. Delicate, that is, if we are coming from the basic posture of mutual respect, tolerance, forgiveness, and reverence for life. If not, of course the situation is much easier to deal with. Fuck the fatties.

Best,
rde

(Edited by Rich Engle on 10/08, 12:33pm)


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Saturday, October 8, 2005 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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Rich,
This story may be one of the reasons Tibor chose obesity as his example.  If not, it adds to his point.  It was a hot news item a few weeks ago.
Glenn


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Post 3

Saturday, October 8, 2005 - 1:09pmSanction this postReply
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It's a crazy situation. I see it at work during staff meetings, when management and supervisors struggle not to use the "n" word ( "no") and trip over themselves to make sure they phrase something in the positive. Everything is so careful and polite.
When dealing with customers and in sales, the idea is to never say no because it is a negative. Don't say...sorry, I should say "as an alternative"...As an alternative to saying "we don't have this book", we should...wait...it would be preferable...if we said that "we can order this book for you." Or, we can recommend another title. "But do you have the book?" Uh, no. I find that "real people" customers (not suburan progressives, that is) get pissed when you don't answer the question. You can say no and then offer to order or suggest alternatives, instead of leaving them guessing. It just seems like used-car salesmanship.
Anyway, just ranting.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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Continuing the rant...
 
Joe, that aggravates me to no end.  I'm one of those "real people" customers who want a simple and straightforward answer... do you have the book or not?  No, I don't want an alternative.  I want the book I wanted!
 
When I get asked the "would you like us to order it for you" question, my response is invariably something on the order of "if I wanted it to be ordered and sent to me, I could have used amazon.  I'm here now and want it now."
 
Yeah, I'm a cranky old fart.
 
To the credit of B&N and Borders, at least they have customer service staff who are attentive and courteous (even if they aren't allowed to say no).  Here in Portland, home to the darned-near-largest independent bookstore in the country, those folks can't be bothered to even look up at you when you ask a question, basically just grunting out an answer, and then they treat you like some disgusting philistine if you ask for anything Libertarian.  (PS: I stopped shopping there when the customer service staff unionized.)


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Saturday, October 8, 2005 - 9:40pmSanction this postReply
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I focused on obesity because Science News, which I get and read each week, focused on it. I thought my story included this information.

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Post 6

Sunday, October 9, 2005 - 2:23amSanction this postReply
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Some on my campus have called me a Nazi and a racist because I openly oppose affirmative action. Who knows what they'll call me when they find that I dislike rap music?

Too many a person bases his or her identity in membership in unchosen groups - that is, groups based on
"...something he or she had no control over—race, sex, ..., national origin, etc."
as Tibor stated in a related context. Is this because many people are devoid of the things (in a social context) that form a rational basis for identity -- one's career, hobbies, philosophy? 

These group members, who have no reason to be proud, get pissed when someone takes notice in their membership. There is often a chip on the shoulder waiting for someone to dare knock it off. One might fear to utter to a black a statement such as, "well, you as a black man suffered less discrimination than I did as a bisexual man scorned by his own family," just as one fears to say to a woman, "on the average, men are better candidates for jobs involving very taxing physical labor" (such as being a firefighter).

I reject adamantly slogans such as "black pride," "gay pride," etc. How about pride in own's accomplishments and character, for starters. Then we can discuss being proud of others.


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Sunday, October 9, 2005 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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"Is this because many people are devoid of the things (in a social context) that form a rational basis for identity -- one's career, hobbies, philosophy?" Yes, this is one strong possibility--the need for pseudo-self-esteem. Also, because others place a good deal of importance on such things. When I first came to the US, many wanted to introduce me to their friends who also hailed from Hungary. I kept asking, and what else would make them attractive to me and me attractive to them; the question puzzled them.  


Post 8

Sunday, October 9, 2005 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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Interesting. I know some Cubans who have been in the USA for over twenty years but still can't speak English. They live in a ghetto in Miami and only socialize with other Cubans. They watch Spanish TV stations and shop in stores where most of the products have Spanish labels. They are not racist and they do not look down on non-Hispanic people. They are simply more comfortable among 'their own kind.' (Oh how I dislike that phrase!) 

Who knows how many opportunities are eliminated by this self-imposed segregation?


Post 9

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 4:17amSanction this postReply
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When I first arrived stateside I was taken to Cleveland, OH, by my father and there, in what then was the second largest Hungarian city in the world, I discovered the Buckeye district, a Hungarian ghetto. Stores had signs: "We speak English." Black bus drivers spoke Hungarian. Men and women sat about waiting for when the old country would reopen and they could return to it. I fled the place ASAP because I feared becoming trapped in it for good. When years later I visited some were upset because I spoke near fluent English--I was a traitor! What a world.

Post 10

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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I understand Hungarian is one of the most difficult languages for a non-native speaker to learn.

--Brant


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