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Post 80

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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Major dittos to Andy's Post 78. Scott, you can't just go bringing up Linz's sexual orientation and use it to make some point, and then say, "Okay, let's put that aside for now." I've met plenty of gay and bisexual men who wouldn't give the time of day to the more effete, limp-wristed homosexual types. They were as anti-sissy as any of the straight men I've met. For you to drag Linz's sexuality into this--something completely irrelevant to the subject at hand--is downright stupid and unfair, and something to be ashamed of.

I think that's enough discussion of this topic on this thread.


Post 81

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:28amSanction this postReply
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Andy:

"Oh come on, Scott! There can be no such comparison. Even if you think we're wrongheaded, voicing clear opposition to an idea is in no way analogous to the unprovoked initiation of violence"

Come on, Andy! Give me some dramatic license. I apologize for being a pomo wanker.

You're right--no one is getting killed over intolerance regarding trifles. But that don't make it right, either.

Post 82

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
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"Just went back to MSKs article. The first comment was Adam Reed's.

Brilliant, Michael, just fucking brilliant!

Odd from one who chides others on their faulty Objectivist epistemology.

Sure you don't want to capitulate, Linz?"

It is this sort of wry humor that makes me kind of like Robert, even though he is a pomo wanker.


Post 83

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
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If I thought Linz was "PC" and would be offended by observations that I find to be ironic, I wouldn't have written what I wrote. If I offended Linz, then I regret it. I do not think it was particularly derogatory or nasty. Maybe it was rather stupid and unfair. I DO find it ironic, though, that he has chosen 'limp-dick'... Too late now, though, eh? Stick and stones...and apologies to Linz or any other homosexual person who was offended.

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Post 84

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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Katdaddy, Lindsay's piece was emotionally charged, but you're wrong to say he didn't "discuss ideas." Even if you think he misconstrued what MSK was trying to say, he obviously didn't berate MSK without addressing any content in his article.

By contrast, your response to Lindsay's article was "this article sucks bigtime" without addressing any of the substantive counterpoints he made.

Then you say, "this is from a so-called friend." Does being someone's friend mean that you shouldn't criticize him if you think he's written an article that contradicts a basic Objectivist principle? Is SOLO primarily about loyalty to the philosophy, or about loyalty to other members (tribalism)? 


Post 85

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
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But that don't make it right, either.
Ah, that's another matter entirely, Scott.  One who makes a vicious, reckless, or knowingly false argument degrades himself.  If the target of his attack has any self-respect, he'll recognize that the harm falls upon his attacker, not himself.  That said, he may want to take the time to brush off the dirt his attack threw at him and denounce him accordingly.  But he would be mistaken to make himself a victim in the process.

Andy


Post 86

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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Scott,
Come on, Andy! Give me some dramatic license. 
You got it, my friend, to trample over, as you do so well, all those pomo wanker P.C. sensitivities. ;-)

Andy


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Post 87

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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HOWARD ROARK IS NOT A CHEEK TURNER!

I posted a similar idea on the other thread, but it seems more appropriate here.  So here's my new and improved version.   [The thought of Roark turning the other cheek kept me up most of the night!]

I disagree that Roark was turning the other cheek, in the least.  Roark mounted the only defense his integrity would allow.  
            Roark got up and walked to the bench, the brown envelope in hand.  He took out of the envelope ten photographs of the Stoddard Temple and laid them on the judge’s desk. He said, “The defense rests.” 
It was the same brown envelope he had when the trial began; the only thing on his desk.  Roark mounted the only rational defense he could that was consistent with his morality.  Roark did not turn the other cheek.  In fact the defense was a perfect defense for anyone of principle.  The defense failed because of the immorality of the judge and the witnesses.  However, it was a defense, and the only moral defense he could offer. 

Roark's refusal to cross examine the other architectural  "experts" at trial was not turning the other cheek, it was his adamant refusal to recognize their opinions as valid. 

We, the readers, knew that the photos were the perfect defense.  The photos spoke for themselves and answered every criticism. 
 
Roark's proffered defense lost for the same reason Roark usually was not hired as an architect.  Roark would not compromise on his buildings; he would not compromise on his principles. 

Roark could present no other defense for the same reason he couldn’t design a structure in any manner but his own.  Roark knew he would probably lose for the very same reason he knew he was usually turned down by nearly every committee and most individuals.  His refusal to change was defiance, not the turning of the other cheek.

In the John Gault example you cited, Gault is mocking them.  It was the most effective attack available to a person was tied to a table and nearly unconscious.  
 
*****
At times I've seen people express their contempt for others by "mooning" them; i.e, showing their butt.  ONLY IN THAT SENSE, did Roark ever turn the other cheek, but he had too much class to do it in that manner.  I doubt that's what Christ meant, in any event.   


(Edited by steve carver on 10/26, 11:23am)

(Edited by steve carver on 10/26, 11:33am)


Post 88

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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You all wanted someone who would not turn his cheek?
Well, Scott proved you all, what you will get by not playing nice with real men.
Ciro.

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/26, 11:21am)


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Post 89

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
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It is an injustice to judge a man on the basis of some group you assign him to.  That is because you are impugning the words and deeds of others to him without any basis in fact.  It's called prejudice, and it's irrational.

Bingo.

It's also the mark of the true pussy. It''s weak, and it's afraid.

And it's so dismal and pathetic when you hear hyper-cereberal creampuffs talk tough guy smack . Kicking ass, don't back down, die for you principles, don't turn the cheek. The physicality of what violence really is seems unbelieveably far removed from so many of them. I don't wish anyone an ass-whupping, I only wish they kept a better memory of what it felt like if or when they ever got one put on them.

The people that spend the most time thinking they are roasting marshmallows are usually the people who most resemble marshmallows. It doesn't take one to know one- it takes one to label someone else as one.

Let me share a few secrets about being a hardass. I happen to be one. The reason I am one is mainly because I was always frail and very early on it became abundantly clear that I had to learn how to overcome that or else I was going to spend a lifetime taking beatings, which began to occur almost immediately, mainly based on not "looking right" to assholes. I can fight in virtually any environment and will beat someone's face in with my shoe or something lying around if that's all there is. I work every day in one of the most dangerous armpits in the United States. I have to operate on the street level virtually every day, and I carry a big fucking hand cannon around with me, which I have no reservations about using, save that I prefer fighting with a tactical knife because it is much nastier and much faster. Every day I swim in the sewer, and I see horrible, horrible things of every variety happening around me. I could walk out in front of my office right now, buy a five dollar whore, fuck her, beat her bloody, and she'd be OK with that as long as she got the five dollars. Got the picture? No time for tea and crumpets, no time for pussy bullshit. That part of my job sucks, the rest of it is wonderful. I rarely talk to anyone about all this, but I'm sick of all the breast beating and crowing so today I will make an exception.

Hardass secret #1: We will do anything to avoid a confrontation, if it's at all feasible. I will back out of a bar or an alley like an 80 lb. cupcake. That's because engagements suck. If, on the other hand, it's on, it's on, and the sooner it is over, the better things will be. I will talk an asshole out of trying to shake me down and maybe even give him everything in my wallet if I think that will stop him from trying to kill me. I can make more money but eyeballs are hard to come by, be they mine or someone else's.

#2: If we see women, children, weaker adults or house pets being abused, Rule #1 is no longer in effect. We will take one for the team. A good question to ask yourself is what your position would be on that. No hedging. That answer is a measure of your true principles, and you will find out if you are a blowbag or not.

#3: We will generally ignore it, but it annoys us when people talk tough guy smack, because it causes misconceptions, and generally opens up the door to trouble where there normally wouldn't be any. People who do this get other people in trouble. We try to put off the many contemptuous, insulting thoughts and phrases that bubble up inside of us about these people because we feel it makes us swim in that same pool, which is filled with some mixture of melted marshmallows and pasteurized bullshit.

#4: Tolerance- yes. Acceptance of differences- yes. Partnering- yes. Front end initiation of force- no.

So, to the proud smack-talkers, a suggested exercise:  Open one of your eyes very widely. Take your index finger, and touch your eyeball with it. Give it a little tiny push, note results: this is what human violence is about, and it's just that easy.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 10/26, 12:09pm)


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Post 90

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Steve Carver,

Of all the posts I have read, I wish to address yours before I make a lengthier rebuttal to the hodgepodge that was made of my ideas. That is because I see that something "got" to you. That is good. You need to use your own mind on this issue - and all issues. Dogma is for the birds.

If you look at strict Christian doctrine, I agree with you. Roark was not a cheek turner. If you look at what the term "turn the other cheek" means to most average church goers who are hard-working and valuing individuals, you will see something to the effect of what I described. The definition for turning the other cheek would be "do not retaliate in kind to an aggression" as simply an action tat you can choose as an alternative to a sticky situation. I speculate that most even see it as a good tactic, to be used or not on a case-by-case basis, to win the situation.

That is the way they conciliate the meaning of something like that with their lifestyles based on the work ethic, accumulating material property and essentially being selfish (in the Objecivist sense), since all of that is not very Christian as presented in the Bible.

According to that definition, "do not retaliate in kind to an aggression," which is the one used by a great deal of society, Roark did turn and moved on (especially by simply paying the renovation costs and not appealing the sentence in my example). According to the Altruistic meaning, of course saying that he turned the other cheek is nonsense. Maybe I should have made that clearer in my article.

As the saying goes, context is all...

I will leave Galt and the two so-far non-commented heroes in my article (Rearden and D'Anconia) to the lengthier reply.

Michael

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Post 91

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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Rich: Open one of your eyes very widely. Take your index finger, and touch your eyeball with it. Give it a little tiny push, note results: this is what human violence is about, and it's just that easy.

Dear Rich, that is what I always thought in the past that human violence
was all about. Now, I think that The worst violence is not  inflicted by pressing  on someone's  eye,  but to widen his eye with the fingers and let him watch  suffering,  and injustice.
Injustice to people is not inflicted by cutting their ears off,  but  to clean their ears and  let them ear things  that would brake their heart.
This is what I consider the worst human violence of all.
Ciro "just A cook"

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/26, 12:43pm)


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Post 92

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Ciro, you are definitely, positively not just a cook. :)

And, yes, I agree...


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Post 93

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
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When I first read Michael's article, I thought "Ugh! How'd that get through?". I wanted to comment, but I prefer to really have a solid grasp of what the other person is saying. So I decided to re-read it later.

I've done so, and I've run into the same problem I had with his Addiction article. It's too vague to do a thorough analysis. In the addiction article, he talked about "a disease", but claims to have a unique meaning for it he can't explain. In this one he redefines "turning the other cheek", sort of. He claims it means something else, but doesn't explain it at all.

Here's a basic epistemological problem for you. If someone makes a vague argument that has obvious contradictions, how do you evaluate it? One way is to give the benefit of the doubt, assume the contradictions may not be real and/or necessary, and ask questions. The other way is to not assume there must be some solution, and leave the burden of proof on the person arguing the point by rejecting the argument as is.

There are some people who assume that this second approach is wrong. They think we must give the benefit of the doubt to someone. They argue we haven't read their argument, or we misunderstood it. It's as if the fact that there are internal contradictions in a person's argument means we can't argue against with them. Contradictions mean the argument is "nuanced" and "deep". That's all just wrong. Contradictions mean the argument is flawed, and if they want to show that the contradictions are not real, they have to prove it.

During Michael's addiction thread, I went ahead and gave the benefit of the doubt (not on the original essay, which was clearly a standard "addiction is a disease" piece, but on his later insistence that he didn't mean any of it in that way). I ended up regretting that. On this latest article, Lindsay chose the more direct response. I would have done the same.

The direct response is a simple argument. MSK said the Christian principle of turning the other cheek is compatible with Objectivism. It's not. That's all that really needs to be said on the topic. His main thesis is wrong. And that fact is not changed by whether MSK tried to redefine the Christian principle to mean something entirely different. The fact that he tried is additional proof that the thesis was wrong to start with.

The reason I didn't respond at first, aside from my unpleasant experience on the addiction thread, is that his argument was unclear. Where some people enjoy his "conversation" style of writing, I find that it is incompatible with discussing a serious issue where you need absolute clarity. He rambled on about so many issues, it's hard to see what the logical chain is. And there was no summary. So I needed to go back a second time (painful, since I didn't like it to start with) to try to see the path.

I see the argument as such:
1.) Just because they're religious, doesn't mean we can't find common ground.
2.) Instead of focusing on differences, we should discuss the similarities. This is the "soft sell".
3.) There is a difference between tactics and strategies.
4.) When he was a kid, it didn't work taking it literally.
5.) Hypocrisy is the rule at church.
6.) Redefine "turn the other cheek" to mean something about taking abuse and shaming an opponent.
7.) Therefore the Christian view of turning the other cheek is in fact compatible with Objectivism.

The obvious problem is that at 6, he redefines "turning the other cheek" to be not at all what the Christians believe. If you can do that, why not define altruism to mean something else, and trying to convince people that we're altruists.

Look at the goal. He set out to seek common ground with Christians, and ended up rejecting their belief entirely. But he thinks he can win them over with a soft sell anyway? If the soft sell is trying to show we actually agree on certain principles, when we clearly don't in this case, what does that mean? It sounds like he wants to trick them into believing we accept their principles because in some limited contexts, using a completely different definition, we may not be entirely opposed to it.

There's no common ground to find here. MSK gave the reasons why with his example. Why still try to convince them that there is common ground? I can only see two motivations. One is to trick them into thinking we're the same and not actually challenge their beliefs. What does that accomplish except to obscure our own philosophy so people won't judge us?

The other possible motivation is to tell challenge their beliefs by arguing that their words may be correct, but the usual meanings aren't. It's a way of telling them they're all wrong while pretending to say that you agree with them. You're counting on them to be too stupid to see what's really happening.

So I conclude that the article fails to make its case, or to even accomplish its goals. On top of both of those, it actually is addressed to Objectivists trying to convince them that their beliefs are compatible with Christian principles. If he came out and said "I think we should trick them, and here's how", you could at least argue the merits of tricking them. But when we're the targets, I don't see any value in this.

Some of the responses have taken a very non-integrated view of his article. They find some value in the discussion of soft sell vs. hard sell. They find his story amusing. They find the strategy vs. tactics discussion interesting (I personally think it was way too vague and inapplicable to this topic). Or they liked the idea of trying to find common ground with others. But an article isn't supposed to be a hodgepodge of random ideas. They ideas are integrated for some purpose. The integration of these particular ideas ended in a mess. If you found value in some part, that's great. But Lindsay was right to criticize the whole.




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Post 94

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
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Has anybody seen my Viagra?


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Post 95

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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Joe Rowlands wrote:

The direct response is a simple argument. MSK said the Christian principle of turning the other cheek is compatible with Objectivism. It's not. That's all that really needs to be said on the topic. His main thesis is wrong. ... Some of the responses have taken a very non-integrated view of his article. They find some value in the discussion of soft sell vs. hard sell. They find his story amusing. They find the strategy vs. tactics discussion interesting (I personally think it was way too vague and inapplicable to this topic). Or they liked the idea of trying to find common ground with others. But an article isn't supposed to be a hodgepodge of random ideas. They ideas are integrated for some purpose. The integration of these particular ideas ended in a mess. If you found value in some part, that's great. But Lindsay was right to criticize the whole.

Amen and bravo!









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Post 96

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Linz, your argument is dead on, but ease up on the insults. You sound like a headbanging caterwauler. (And yes I did just call you that :P )

Mike, I think you're a decent guy, but I read the article and just thought it wasn't one of your best. Send it to the trash and start over.

What I had a problem with is that it was a collection of different points and ideas that never came together to form an integrated theme. I was left more confused after reading it. First of all, can you specifically define your 'objectivist' version of turning the other cheek because I took it to mean acceptance of coercion against oneself without defense in absence of an explicit definition. The examples you mentions I found were problematic.

For example, if Galt were to truly turn the other cheek to his enemies (meaning he accepts their irrational, inhuman, and immoral treatment of him) he clearly would not have had the courage to withdraw his support (not to mention that of all of the other atlases who followed) of an evil world so that it may collapse. He would have stayed in Starnesville and starved with the rest of the plant of  20th Century motors. If he suddenly decided to do that in the torture room, he would just accept the fact that he was a prisoner of theirs and capitulate to their evil and stupid demands rather than mock them and let them face the hell that they created.

If Roark accepted the lower standards of his contemporaries he would have put his talent in the service of designing whatever his clients wanted at the price of his own self-respect. But let's say that he followed his standards up until the Stoddard lawsuit and then decided to turn the other cheek. He'd apologize and gladly pays Stoddard the money needed to rip his artistic masterpiece to shreds.

Keep in mind that if Rand had written those scenes *shudder* the whole plot and theme of both books would be incomprehensible due to inconsistencies in the characters of Roark and Galt.

As for using cheek turning as a tactic vs. a strategy, I was confused by the way these terms were used. As best as I could surmise, you used your own beating as a 14y.o. as demonstration as its failure as a tactic, then to use the principle to find common ground with the Christian religion as a demonstration as a strategy. If that's correct, then why not call both a strategy or a tactic and then define the context in which it fails and the context in which it doesn't? It seems you're setting up a weird dichotomy between tactic and strategy.

As for using the idea of cheek turning as a way to find common ground with Christianity just doesn't make sense. Isn't the whole point of marketing is trying to differentiate your product from your competitors and prove that it's better? There's nothing wrong in trying to spread Objectivism to non-Objectivists by using language that they can understand, but saying Objectivism shares many principles with Christianity is just bad marketing and bad philosophy. If you try to dress Objectivism in Christian rehtoric, you are bound to fail as your audience will be able pick up on the fact that you're faking it. They'll just conclude that you're trying to fashion a secular version of their religion and conclude that the original is better. Objectivism is fundamentaly different. It is better, it is right, and I know it for a fact. One of the ways Christianity wins converts (even in a world with abundant scientific proof against it) is that the evangelists are unflappably certain and maintain it by targeting the uncertain. They give the uncertain the hard sell. It almost worked on me in seventh grade (ooh a good article to write). You can't turn the other cheek, especially not when you are right. If you find a soul in need of guidance, don't be wishy washy and show how it agrees with someone's religious hack. This is the greatest philosophy and it is the only philosophy worth living by. Don't sell it short.

(Edited by Adam Buker on 10/26, 6:57pm)

(Edited by Adam Buker on 10/26, 7:00pm)


Post 97

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 8:06pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I am preparing a lengthier response to Linz (actually it is almost written, but I want to edit it to make sure it is tight). I will deal with his mischaracterization of my ideas there.

Just let me state here for the record that I did not write an article strictly on appeasement, I do not condone appeasement as a moral virtue, I did not state nor do I believe that Rand supported appeasement as a moral virtue (nor did her heroes) and the attempt to pigeonhole me that way was misguided at best. More coming on that.

There are a couple of issues you raised here that I was addressing there, but since you raised them here, let's deal with them.

OUTLINE

First, though, unfortunately I found your outline of my article a bit of a hodgepodge and frankly it came off as done without a real interest in understanding what I was saying. More of discharging an unpleasant duty. Here is another outline.

1. Introduction -
    a. Innocence of child approach.
    b. Unthinking preconception of Objecivists when religious principles are mentioned turning off newcomers before they understand Objectivism.
    c. Mention that similarities to traditional religious principles are present in Rand's works.
    d. Quote from Rand stating that good is to be found in many religious principles - her fundamental issue was with faith versus reason.
    e. Possibility of arriving at a different rhetorical approach with religious people.

2. How I came about the idea of applying strategy and tactics to moral principles:
    a. Prescott parody, which stated that ALL Objectivists ideas are the reverse of traditional ones (obvious exaggeration).
    b. Musing on "turn the other cheek," checking out a Rand quote on pacifism and arriving at a definition of the principle based on popular meaning (not retaliating against aggression).
    c. Watkins quote, stressing the need for overall moral principle before calculations, leading to thinking about strategy and tactics.
    d. Quote from Rand showing that ethical principles are guides to action based on getting/keeping values.
    e. Example from chess, showing which two types of action are available in terms of scope (strategy and tactics).

3. Examination of what "turning the other cheek" means in terms of strategy and tactics.
    a. Original quotes from the Bible on "turning the other cheek," with conclusion that no real use was originally specified.
    b. Personal story from childhood showing how "turning the other cheek" fails miserably as a strategy (thus as an overall moral principle).
    c. Three examples from Rand showing how not retaliating in kind ("turning the other cheek" as understood popularly) was used by her heroes as a tactic to get and/or preserve other moral values - (1) Roark's refusal to appeal the sentence to preserve his integrity, (2) Galt (even going so far as to help his destroyers) to demonstrate his contempt for the unthinking, and (3) D'Anconia not reacting to Rearden's slap because of the tremendous value he held for Rearden.

4. Conclusion.
    a. Showing similarities between Objectivist works and traditional principles is a good way to make a listener new to Objectivist ideas not hostile - it breaks the ice.
    b. "Turning the other cheek" only works as a tactic, and then only some of the time.

There. That certainly looks a lot better.

STYLE OF WRITING

Now about my style of writing, which you find inappropriate. These days I am really studying up on psycho-epistemology for another article. Did you know that Rand wrote quite a bit about this? I hadn't realized how much until I went into it, as it is strung out throughout her essays. (This word is not found in her fiction, although the concept is.)

Linz mentioned that my dramatic manner of anticipating the hostile charge of those who would disagree was a good tactic - and that it fooled the posters, which is why they liked my article. I strongly disagree. (I don't even play that way - gross manipulation - and I wouldn't know how to start.)

I have another theory about why many posters liked my article. It has a lot to do with psycho-epistemology and style. In my studies I was delighted to see it apply to myself.  Here is what Rand said in “Art And Sense Of Life,” The Romantic Manifesto.

 

“’Style’ is a particular, distinctive or characteristic mode of execution. An artist's style is the product of his own psycho-epistemology—and, by implication, a projection of his view of man's consciousness, of its efficacy or impotence, of its proper method or level of functioning.”

 

The style that I have chosen for my posts and for that particular article is a more conversational style. I have held the strong belief that all complex ideas can be expressed simply in simple language. Obviously more technical language is needed as the detailing of the complexities increases, but the core ideas should be able to be understood by the average person, not just an academic specialist. It is really hard to write simply and clearly. Try it sometime.

 

What delighted me was to see that this style completely reflects that little kid in me, the one who always says the emperor has no clothes on. I state simple truths simply and entertainingly. My style of writing reflects all that. This is completely consistent with my own psycho-epistemology. (Look at facts without preconceptions first, then evaluate.)

 

That is why I believe that many people liked my article. They could understand it easily Not because I tricked them and headed them off at the pass.

 

I'm sorry you don't like that style, though. It happens to be my voice - my chosen voice based on my chosen beliefs.

 

Do you want to change the world? Then learn how to talk to people in a manner that they can understand. Rand did it. She wrote fiction. 

LEFTOVER ISSUES FROM THE ADDICTION ARTICLE


Now the last issue is with the addiction stuff. Our whole difficulty in communication was that I wrote an article on psychology and you were evaluating it from the point of view of philosophy. More Rand quotes here, from The Psychology of "Psychologizing," The Objectivist, March 1971:

As a science, psychology is barely making its first steps. It is still in the anteroom of science, in the stage of observing and gathering material from which a future science will come. This stage may be compared to the pre-Socratic period in philosophy; psychology has not yet found a Plato, let alone an Aristotle, to organize its material, systematize its problems and define its fundamental principles.

(...)

The task of evaluating the processes of man's subconscious is the province of psychology. Psychology does not regard its subject morally, but medically—i.e., from the aspect of health or malfunction (with cognitive competence as the proper standard of health).

(...)

An individual's consciousness, as such, is inaccessible to others; it can be perceived only by means of its outward manifestations. It is only when mental processes reach some form of expression in action that they become perceivable (by inference) and can be judged. At this point, there is a line of demarcation, a division of labor, between two different sciences.
 
The task of evaluating the processes of man's subconscious is the province of psychology. Psychology does not regard its subject morally, but medically—i.e., from the aspect of health or malfunction (with cognitive competence as the proper standard of health).
 
The task of judging man's ideas and actions is the province of philosophy.
 
A man who has psychological problems is a conscious being; his cognitive faculty is hampered, burdened, slowed down, but not destroyed...
 
(...)
 
If a man's consciousness is hampered by malfunction, it is the task of a psychologist to help him correct it—just as it is the task of a doctor to help correct the malfunction of a man's body.

Think about these quotes in the context of my article.


Let me state unequivocally that, philosophically speaking, all issues of consciousness involve volition, even addiction. Psychologically speaking, a consciousness can become diseased, including the contamination of his sense of identity and impairment of his faculty of volition. The psychologist's task to help correct that.

Does that make sense to you? It sure does to me.



Michael

 

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 10/26, 8:11pm)


(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 10/26, 8:37pm)


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Post 98

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 11:00pmSanction this postReply
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Michael I enjoyed your article because it envoked within me the hope of a commonality with the Christians pervading my immediate environment (Christian individuals, as opposed to the hypocritical christian doctrines). I thought you were attempting to show Christians how they have been misinformed by their doctrines and there was rational logic to a principle they value. I also thought Linz's article was subsequently warranted as it clarified the policy of SOLO as well as the possible Objectivist principles you may have jeopardized. Still I liked it.

However Joe Rowland's inspection looks accurate and fair. I too tried to distill your paragraphs into main points and came up with a similar list. I would really like to see your revised article, but like Joe said, you would need to change your motive and specific thesis.

I'm sorry, but ""Turning the Other Cheek" as understood popularly" in my experience and from the mouths of the preachers of my youth, was espoused pretty-much verbatim with what Linz and now Joe have denounced (as well as your childhood story). Even after your attempts to explain I can't see your point of view. It is an excellent outline however in the general sense, and as I mentioned before I would love to learn of other possible compatibilities with Christianity.

And Joe: I agree the 'soft sell' is morally compromising and a slippery slope in practicality. But what is the alternative solution? I can't just dismiss them out of hand like I can their religion, I value them as people. I see their spark, I know they are quazi-rational thinkers whom I am convinced I could one day turn to reason with just the rightly worded argument. They've heard Objectivism, they're not interested, but they lack the understanding of Objectivist implications and concrete exponents in reality. This is the realm where Objectivist/Christian commonalities lie, in the results. It is these results I wish to make explicit and help the people I value to trace the path back to Objectivist principles instead of Christian ones. Is this a soft sell? Is this MSK's 'tricking' them to see reason if one is honest? I believe I am lost as to how we are going about changing the world.

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Post 99

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 11:47pmSanction this postReply
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Stephen,

You ask about the "soft sell".  I'm okay with that in general.  I even wrote a little piece called "Finding the Common Ground".  In this particular instance, I don't think MSK did that, and his "soft sell" is really just a way of obfuscating the differences.  I think there can be real common ground.  One of the participants on SOLO is a long-time friend of mine who used to be Catholic.  She's always had a wonderful sense of life, and a real thirst for living.  It was that common ground that I focused on when I discussed Objectivism with her.  I wasn't trying to trick her into believing there's no difference in our beliefs.  I merely found the point that we both agreed was important, and then I tried to show why my other beliefs are compatible with it, while hers weren't. 

Is that a "soft sell"?  I don't think it is anything like MSK's approach.  The problem is that his article is being touted as a "soft sell".  A "hard sell" just sounds bad.  What is it?  Beating people up until they admit you're right?  It sounds like a terrible dichotomy.

So drop the phrases, and think about what works.  You can find real common ground.  Not necessarily with their christian beliefs, but most people have a wider implicit belief system than what they learn in the Bible.  Most people can understand why killing someone is bad without having to say "The bible says so".  But also don't just tell them that they're wrong.  Provide an alternative.  Sometimes people believe something because they didn't realize there was an alternative.  And don't try to sneak one by them.  Clarity and reason are on our side.  We never need to obfuscate. We don't have to trick people into accepting our views, nor would we want to (nor could we actually).   We have a lot to offer, and we can present it that way. 


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