About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 3:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Lindsay -- this whole series of yours is fascinating.

My own view is that Heraclitus and Parmenides were mostly good guys who advanced philosophy. They were generally rational intellectuals who continued the fine Milesian tradition, and made human thought more profound and more subtle than ever before.

I view Xenophanes amd Pythagoras very differently. These are the bad guys -- the irrationalists who first gave philosophy a bad name. Altho' their advent was likely ineluctable and even healthy, these are the ones that made it a source of mockery and contempt to the hoi polloi. Just as today, the common-sense, non-ivory tower, man-in-the-street rightly condemned and feared the easy, frequent tendency of the over-brainy, over-educated, sneaky, tricky philosophes slipping into empty double-talk and false, insidious mumbo-jumbo. 

I think Pythagoras gave birth to the Sophists and early skeptics, who gave birth to Plato, who gave birth to the Platonists and full skeptics, and who eventually gave birth to Berkeley, Hume, Kant, etc. These early guys also de facto invented "god," and established just about all the metaphysical and epistemological disasters which are still with us.

One point about Dionysus: In my reading of the history of philosophy it was the irrationality and early skepticism of Pythagoras which created the updated/adapted mythology and Eleusinian versions of Dionysus, Orpheus, Demeter/Persephone, etc. It didn't happen the other way around or simultaneously. These Eleusis-based mystery cults eventually became full religion, monotheism, and today's omniscent, omnipotent god.

Pythagoras created the first cult -- not unlike the ARIan group today. He combined real truth with intimidating, meretricious gibberish. And this slick, perverse, intellectual rot was backed with a cult-of-personality, intellectually-seductive, charismatic leader.

...Or at least that's how I see it...


Post 1

Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 5:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Once again, Linz, thanks for the history lesson.  Enjoyable and illuminating reading.  I look forward to the next installment.

Andy


Post 2

Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This is fascinating stuff, Lindsay. I wonder how much of the modern mumbo-jumbo about numbers (numerology, etc.) is directly descended from Pythagoras, & how much was simply dreamed up independently by modern-day witchdoctors?

Post 3

Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
     Really good personal 'overview', Lindsay; don't stop.

LLAP
J:D


Post 4

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 12:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It's really interesting, Linz, how Pythagoras led to Plato. But my question is who led to Pythagoras?

The wheel of birth, reincarnation, detachment from the material world, being a passive spectator stuff all is common to Eastern traditions which would become Hinduism, etc. Did Pythagoras spring from a previous thinker or tradition he was immersed in..or do we know?

Phil

(These are the kinds of nagging questions I used to torment Peikoff with; I bet he is -so- glad to get rid of me.)

Post 5

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Philip,

Those were the common elements of pre-philosophical "mystery cults" - "mystery religions" that may predate the old Indo-European migrations.


Post 6

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
An important point, Adam: Certainly people think of "the East" as being different from the European sphere and, well, -east- of it. Or of the "wheel of birth" idea as being Hindu or Buddhist. But it probably was truly everywhere. On your specific point, though, mystery religions didn't always specifically believed in reincarnation/wheel of birth/ transmigration [ cult of Mithra, Isis, Zoroastrianism, etc. - they had a wide range of mystical / spiritual doctrines. ]

At any rate, in my looking into this question, I discovered that Pythagoras spent a formative period in Egypt and Mesopotamia...which would have been the place where he may have gotten his 'eastern' mysticism...not from the Greeks in Magna Graecia or transplanted from Greece itself. There doesn't seem to have been a single Greek figure who handed these ideas down to Pythagoras.

He seems to have been the progenitor of eastern mysticism in the West, does he not?

Plants the seed. Plato waters it. Christians make it flower and spread it everywhere.

[Skepticism, by contrast, had different roots - the pre-Socratic philosophers as Linz reports in his series...and as Peikoff explained in depth in his superb, essentialized History of Philosophy courses. ]

Phil
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 10/29, 7:24pm)


Post 7

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 3:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam Reed writes:


Those were the common elements of pre-philosophical "mystery cults" - "mystery religions" that may predate the old Indo-European migrations.




In my judgment there's flat-out no such thing as "pre-philosophical mystery cults - mystery religions." In my reading of history and philosophy nothing remotely like these existed in Persia or India or China, or the Germanic and Celtic regions, or Siberia and Mongolia, or Africa, or Oceania and the Americas, or anywhere else. The Eastern Mystery Cults were entirely a response to the invention of reason and philosophy (and science) in 600 BC by the Milesians, and entirely non-existent prior to them.

And religion isn't "a kind of primitive philosophy" as Ayn Rand thought but anti-philosophy and anti-reason. Then and now the forces of evil were very eager to claim that religion in some obscure and general fashion antedated philosophy. But it didn't. Some people even brazenly claim Zarathustra existed 1000 years before Thales, and the same for a monotheistic-teaching Moses. These are all pure lies.

If you want "pre-philosophy" then look to the often-benevolent Joseph Campbell world of mythology between 3300 BC and 600 BC. These early thinkers basically made it all up out of the clear blue sky but...these fantastic stories and legends about heroes had elements of rationality and wisdom in them as well. As for the always-hateful mystery cults...this is unprecedented irrationality (which couldn't exist prior) and the beginnings of religion, monotheism, "the unigod," etc.     


Post 8

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andre,

This is interesting. Have you written anything that would give the full grounding of what you posted above? It seems to hinge on a distinction between mythic and mystical religion. Can this distinction be made specific enough to provide a confirmation/disconfirmation criterion for your thesis?



Post 9

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
(Excessively overreaching commentary deleted by popular demand!)  :-)

(Edited by Andre Zantonavitch on 10/31, 6:40pm)


Post 10

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andre, I'd love to see how this would refute the idea of the Jung/Campbell school of mythology as a product of the collective unconscious, since I found overlapping ideas between Jung and Rand's take on religion. Seeing that you claim Rand to be wrong on religion as a natural phenomenon, I'm highly intrigued.

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andre,

What on earth are you talking about? I simply can't follow your reasoning. Some of the history gets interesting, then off you go into... well... wherever you go...

One thing you made clear. You are the chosen one. You just need a bank account to prove it.

You wrote:
Too bad someone doesn't hire me to write a book on this.
Well nobody hired Ayn Rand to write her first two bestsellers, nor her Broadway smash hit.

Need I continue?

Michael



Post 12

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 5:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
(Excessive commentaries deleted!)  :-) 

(Edited by Andre Zantonavitch on 10/31, 6:43pm)


Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 5:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andre, I agree with you. I don't understand how come someone hasn't hired you to write a book on this.


With documentation like,
"Careful reading of somewhat obscure reference books (most of which refute me),
plus reading between the lines,
plus psychological speculation,
plus introspection"

and enthusiasm like,
(start of the post)"Still -- I bet I'm right."
(end of the post)"But I know I'm right."


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.