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Post 20

Friday, November 25, 2005 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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Dr. Seddon,

I was referring to Valliant and various others in both places. Thanks for your reply to my reply.

Mike E.

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Post 21

Friday, November 25, 2005 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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I am still under the impact of the examination of "To Whom it May Concern." (And I don't necessarily like this impact, either, regardless of what anybody may think.)

How on earth did Ayn Rand get the amount of her own writings all wrong and then put that in a document and publish it?

And how on earth did James Valliant, who verified and speculated on the minutest of details in the Branden books, devote pp. 90-126 of PARC to this document and not check something as basic as this?

Two things are apparent.

1. Ayn Rand was capable of publishing a huge error about her own previous performance.

2. Valliant was capable of overlooking some very basic research on the Rand side.

Michael


Post 22

Friday, November 25, 2005 - 2:18pmSanction this postReply
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Fred have you read the fable of Jumbo the flying elephant?
He would have never found the courage to fly if the crow had not lied to him.
Lies have their importance in human's life. They are indispensable!
And as everything have their pros and cons!

We become what we are because we believed in Santa!



Post 23

Friday, November 25, 2005 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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Ciro, that's the same story as St. George and the Dragon. But the full story goes something like this: George is given a "mystical" charm that allows him to kill dragons. After slaying several dragons, he learns that it was a placebo to give him confidence. "The courage was within him" all along. But he believed it was the charm, and without the lie, was killed by the next dragon.

(It may not have been St. George and the dragon, but another "knight."


(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 11/25, 2:24pm)


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Post 24

Friday, November 25, 2005 - 2:41pmSanction this postReply
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I have been misunderstood!
I detest liers!
But in the context of the Brandens-Rand brake lies were used on both side with the intent to cause as less pain as possible to each other
and not as Mr Valliant wants us to believe!
I hope my point is a little clearer now!

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 11/25, 4:20pm)


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Post 25

Friday, November 25, 2005 - 3:35pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

I have to disagree. You are stretching the concept of consent way too far.

Rape is imposing sex by physical nonconsensual force. Period.

Getting into someones pants or panties by ruse is not rape. It's a dirty rotten trick, but consent is given and physical force is not used.

Anyway, the whole mating game is based on pretending you aren't interested, then you are, then you aren't, then you are, and so on.

Michael


Edit - LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL... I have been corrected offline. (Speak up if you want to be identified.) Er... of course rape has a little something to do with sex, too. A small detail escapes...

I have added "imposing sex" in my phrase above. Thanks.

//;-)
 

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 11/25, 4:18pm)


Post 26

Friday, November 25, 2005 - 5:01pmSanction this postReply
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(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 11/25, 7:42pm)


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Post 27

Friday, November 25, 2005 - 9:18pmSanction this postReply
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"Getting into someones pants or panties by ruse is not rape..."
Exactly right. But not exactly for the reason you state.
"It's a dirty rotten trick, but consent is given and physical force is not used."
A "dirty rotten trick" could be classed as fraud & fraud is a form of force. And then there's Newton's first law of motion which states that you can't initiate motion (or change an object's motion) without applying physical force.

The problem here is that Glenn perverted the definition of rape. Rape is defined in my dictionary as "a sexual action causing results harmful or very unpleasant to a person or thing."
 
If what NB did to AR sexually was harmful or unpleasant, I doubt very much that AR would have allowed it to go on for 1 second let alone 1 year (or whatever the period was.)

Now let me say again, I really don't give a shit about the entire silly episode! The only reason I entered this thread is because you guys were making a hash of refuting Glenn's rape suggestion.

The only thing more ludicrous than four intelligent people indulging in partner-swopping, deluding themselves that it wouldn't all end in tears, is the number of trees and electrons wasted in apportioning blame for the fall out. They all acted deceptively. NB was a cad & BB lied by omission. But AR also deluded herself and thus had a hand in her own demise. 

Personally I don't think enough blame has been apportioned to California! There must be something in the water over there because I have yet to meet a Californian (or anyone who's spent time there) who hasn't been at least 30% crazy.

(Edited by Robert Winefield on 11/25, 9:21pm)


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Post 28

Friday, November 25, 2005 - 9:40pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

My dictionary (American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition) gives rape as:
n. 1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sexual intercourse.

v. 1. To force (another person) to submit to sexual intercourse.
Only Objectivists or Libertarians consider concepts like fraud to be force (doing the NIOF stretch). The rest of the world considers force as physical.

Michael


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Post 29

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 2:16amSanction this postReply
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I didn't want to get into a hair splitting debate - and yes that was a funny way to do it. I was dissatisfied with the way people dealt with Glenn's query, and I think that I still fell short of the mark. 

When one considers what some consenting adults call sex adding riders about using physical force to the definition is fraught with danger. The crux of the matter is whether the victim was made to do the act against their will (something that by definition is unpleasant and thus was covered in my definition.)

But what about when consent is gained via deceit? For instance, let's say you were able to dress up like someone else and contrive to trick somebody into believing you were their lover. Is this rape? You gained consent by fraud.

The rest of the world does consider fraud to be a crime - An intentional deception or perversion of truth for the purpose of obtaining some valuable thing or resulting in injury of another.

In other words, harm comes to the victim - harm that they did not consent to. NB may have lied is arse off, but unless I miss my guess, AR wasn't harmed or had anything unpleasant done to her by NB during their romps and so any suggestion of rape is ludicrous.

And BTW, the rest of the world does not consider force (in the NIOF sense) to be just physical. It is a crime to threaten to kill someone - even if you don't mean it.

(Edited by Robert Winefield on 11/26, 2:18am)


Post 30

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 7:45amSanction this postReply
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Brant,

My original title was "Valliant and Honesty." Maybe I should have stuck with that. What do you think?

Fred

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Post 31

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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Mark,

On your statement,

"Regarding the line in AS that said Dagny had only lied once, she had only lied once UP TO THAT POINT IN TIME. Unless I'm not remembering an earlier lie she made, the statement had to be put in its proper context, which it wasn't."

Here is the quotation.

"When she came home, she told her mother that she had cut her lip by
falling against a rock. It was the only lie she ever told. She did not do it
to protect Francisco; she did it because she felt, for some reason which she
could not define, that the incident was a secret too precious to share, Next
summer, when Francisco came, she was sixteen."

So Dagny was only 15 when she lied. Rand does not say "It was the only lie she ever told up till that point in time." I took is as a point of authorial omniscience. Also, since this is a flashback, I assumed that author knows all about Dagny up to the point of the story, where she is in her 30s. If Rand had written the phrase "up to that point in time" one might assume this was the beginning of a trend, which is definitely not what Rand would want to suggest.

I do appreciate your point 2. That's why I mentioned Tibor, who expressed a similar point to me at the West Virginia Philosophical Society meeting in October.

Thanks,

Fred

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Post 32

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:12amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

Hey, you're one the who got me going. I wasn't even going to buy the book until I read your "effing Valliant thread."

Fred, the meek follower of all things Linzie.

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Post 33

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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MSK, SPL,

"And how on earth did James Valliant, who verified and speculated on the minutest of details in the Branden books, devote pp. 90-126 of PARC to this document and not check something as basic as this?"

Perhaps Valliant should reply to this. But remember the book is entitled "The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics" and so the emphasis is on the errors committed by the Brandens, and not those committed by Rand.

Fred

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Post 34

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
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Ciro,

"Lies have their importance in human's life. They are indispensable!"

If you are right, it goes against Valliant's claims about honesty in Objectivism. If lies are indispensable, then honesty (sans qualification) cannot be a fundamental virtue.

Fred

Post 35

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:35amSanction this postReply
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MSK, SPL, (post 28)

"Only Objectivists or Libertarians consider concepts like fraud to be force"


Just two small nits. The word "only." Locke also consider them to be equivalent. See the 2nd Treatise, section 181.
Did you really mean "CONCEPTS like fraud to be force" instead of "fraud to be like force?"

Fred

Post 36

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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Fred, I say; I am honest and not I feel honest.
Thus, honesty is a state of being, in order to be honest we must act, we cannot be honest  by thinking alone.
Honesty is a means and as such every sane person should use it appropriately on different given situations.

Ayn Rand
Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue
man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others.

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 11/26, 9:47am)


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Post 37

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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Fred and Robert W,

I just looked up your (Fred's) passage from Locke:
For whether by force he begins the injury, or else having quietly and by fraud done the injury, he refuses to make reparation, and by force maintains it, which is the same thing as at first to have done it by force; it is the unjust use of force that makes the war.
I believe he is talking about the effects of using fraud when he says "which is the same thing,"  not a redefinition of fraud as force. (Also, his context is war, but I will let that slide.)

I have no problem at all with using force to mean physical compulsion/damage as one concept, threat as a another concept to mean communication of intent, fraud as another concept to mean dishonest behavior in trade, and so on. This is the way the world uses them and I am quite comfortable with that.

I don't want to go off on a NIOF tangent, so to get back to Rand, there is a trend in the thinking of Objectivists and Libertarians that I believe has roots in a sometimes-used aspect of her rhetorical method. (I have been putting together an essay on this.)

This is from a cognitive/normative focus. Rand often used the same word in both the cognitive sense, then the normative sense in the same essay, only letting the context be the qualifier, i.e., not making an explicit qualifying statement. Thus she could talk about the ethics or morality of altruism and then later say that altruism is immoral (leaving out, "under a rational - or Objectivist - philosophy").

I observe the following trend. Great effort is expended by Objectivists and Libertarians to find a universal principle or axiom - to boil everything down to one observation as much as possible ("existence exists," or "reason is man's tool of survival," or even the rights principle, "no man has the right to initiate force against another," etc., just to cite Objectivist ones).

That approach works fine for principles and axioms. It does not work so well with a word - or even a concept.

On fraud and force, for the life of me, I cannot cognitively call fraud and force the same thing. The different words exist to denote different concepts.

Normatively, I can see where similar results occur, so I can see a connection between them. But not a cognitive obliteration of the meaning of one (fraud) and absorption of it by another (the new, all-inclusive "force").

Although I am not aware of anyplace where Rand actually did this, I see her approach as having been used by others as a prompt for such reasoning (stretching and redefining words and concepts to get an all-inclusive term where they don't fit).

Rand's over-emphasis on the normative in the "To Whom It May Concern" article even led her to write and sign the contradictions you (Fred) pointed out. That is one of the dangers of blindly giving yourself over to normative judgments without keeping the facts straight.

(All right, all right. She was hurt and that explains a lot. Still, the words she wrote continue to exist and continue to contradict the facts.)

So my point is, just as an imbalance in the cognitive-normative use of the mind (and the choice to do it is volitional, by the way) can lead to getting the facts all wrong, it can also lead to package-like concepts and words that overemphasize superficial similarities and ignore essential ones.

To illustrate by the force-fraud example. The effect of obtaining property from another by seizure or trickery is emphasized, however, it is a superficial aspect cognitive-wise. What is ignored in the new definition is the physical nature of force, or when the physical nature becomes manifest later, as in the Locke example, time is excluded from the concept; i.e., the idea becomes that something that happens later is the same thing as something happening now. Normatively that might be (and is) a valid consideration, but cognitively, it is simply not identifying reality correctly.

I guess I did go on a tangent after all. Sorry. This issue is vitally important to my own thinking, though, and I see it as a root cause to a great deal of misunderstanding and bickering in Objectivism and Libertarianism. (Even the root of Valliant's "convict at all costs" approach in his book is based on that kind of normative overemphasis.)

Michael



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Post 38

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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MSK, SPL,

"I guess I did go on a tangent after all. Sorry."

No need to be sorry. Yours was a terrific post.

Fred

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Post 39

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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Fred, I think a careful reading of Atlas would also show that there are some cases in which Dagny - in the moment - does not want to know too much about her own feelings, and that these too involve sex.

"She would not acknowledge the things she feared or give them the solid shape of words, she knew them only by the ugly, nagging pull of an unadmitted emotion."

So, here she refuses to acknowledge what she is afraid of.

"I want him back!--she cried defiantly, fight not to drop the one superfluous, protective word in that sentence."

Here she refuses to admit that she simply WANTS Galt, rather than "wants him back."

"She looked from his face to Francisco's approaching figure, not hiding from herself any longer that her sudden, heavy, desolate anxiety was the fear that Galt might throw the three of them into the hopeless waste of self-sacrifice."

Here is it clear that she was hiding her fear from herself.

These examples are all from the Utopia of Greed chapter, of course.

John


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