About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2


Post 40

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There are many flavors of anarchism. One could say the open source people are anarchists.





Post 41

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rick,

So, Why don't you explain what you mean by anarchism. That way we can better judge your position. You seem to be telling everyone here that they've got it wrong, but not telling us how. Explanation rather than finger wagging is always appreciated.

Ethan


Post 42

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hate to sound like a sycophant here, but are you seriously saying that Ayn Rand got it wrong and she needs some education on anarchism from you? From where I sit, she knew what the hell she was talking about, and understood anarchism.

Someone, PLEASE explain to me how having "competing governing systems" and having no rule of law does not lead to perpetual war...I am trying really, really hard and I see no way to prevent it.

Sarah, I think it's funny that my arguments are considered fallacious by you, but you seemed to get a big kick out of M. Dwyer's mix of attacks on men (yeah, we all sit around, scratch ourselves and grunt), appeal to authority ("haven't you read my book? I'm a genius!") and unfunny sarcasm. Recognizing fallaciousness needs to start at home.

Post 43

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 12:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Exactly Ethan. Neither side has gotten past, "No, I'm right!"

And I did find Bill's comments funny, given my recent discussions. I never said I considered them an argument.

Sarah

Post 44

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ethan,

Anarchy simply means no ruler.

Do you want to be ruled by someone else? Do you think that Objectivism advocates that some be ruled by others?

Post 45

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steven wrote: "Someone, PLEASE explain to me how having "competing governing systems" and having no rule of law does not lead to perpetual war...I am trying really, really hard and I see no way to prevent it."


The Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman has interesting ideas on how disputes, personal protection etc might be handled in a completely privatized manner. His is the most practical outline I have seen. But I am not well read on anarchist thought.

John

Post 46

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 1:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rick,

Rand said that No ruler would mean that the first criminal with enough force behind him would then take over. Do you think that this outcome, as she proposed it, is unlikely?


Post 47

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rick,

I did not address any specific derogatory remarks to you, yet you said the kneejerk "ad hominem" bromide (and I still don't know which person I personally insulted). I included minarchists and Objectivists in my original observation. Yet you did the kneejerk omissions of them in your complaint. I mentioned "checks and balances" as an organizing principle for government and you did the kneejerk sidestep and made a sarcastic joke about check books. I could go on, but the gist is that all you are doing is kneejerks and not discussing the very effective principle of checks and balances.

Frankly, I think you are not arguing this issue by using principles and evidence simply because you can't. That's why you go for the smoke-screen and sarcasm approach.

btw - Checks and balances is an extremely appropriate thing to talk about with anarch-capitalists - precisely because they won't talk about it. It's a classic example of the blank-out in action. That is why you think it is "inappropriate." It takes the covers off.

John,

I have not read the book you mentioned, but I do want to make a comment. The whole reason that Communism failed was that it ultimately was a system designed for anything but man. It's concept of man was wrong at the root. As a system for ants, for example, it sort of works, but there are aspects of man's character like greed and competition, and the self-interest involved in producing, that were completely left out.

The anarcho-capitalists postulate a similarly flawed view of man. They think that the "power over others" urge will simply be bred out of man if it is not dealt with. Just close your eyes and it all will go away. Won't happen. People are capable of making wrong choices and far too many people channel a biological propensity to competitiveness (a species thing) in the direction of power wedded to force. That's just one good reason why Rand said that this must be contained by a monopoly on force based on principles.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 1/13, 2:13pm)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 1/13, 3:29pm)


Post 48

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, Steven, Ayn Rand got anarchism wrong but it's a little late to attempt educating her now. Roy Childs tried but I've never seen any evidence that Ayn Rand actually read his Open Letter but she was certainly aware of it. In any event, she never addressed any of his points.

I have no idea what "competing governing systems" are, unless you are talking about what we have now with all the various countries in the world competing against each other. Certainly these "competing governments" frequently war against each other -- that is to be expected of governments.

Every anarcho-capitalist I've ever read or talked to has advocated the rule of law so clearly you are very much unaware of what anarcho-capitalists actually advocate. I suggest you do some reading rather than arguing against your imaginary boogey men.

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 49

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rick,

regarding your post #48, it reminds me of something I heard recently......oh yes here it is.

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/Dissent/0049_1.shtml#24


Post 50

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 5:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steven Druckenmiller wrote,
If anarchists do not recognize the massive philosophical error that they are making after ever well-reasoned argument reveals that error, then yes, they are evading the truth and are overtly rooting for serial gang warfare and an eventual oppressive state.
If Steven Druckenmiller doesn't recognize the fallacy in his poorly reasoned argument, then he is evading the truth and overtly rooting for irrationalism.

Here, ladies and gents, are two examples of what is known as a "non-sequitur". Please make a note of it, as there will be a question on it in the next exam.

- Bill

Post 51

Friday, January 13, 2006 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rick,

I agree that the letter you linked to is a very coherent and persuasive case for free market anarchism.  I am not a proponent of anarchism, but I am having a hard time thinking of an effective refutation for the bit about how government is inescapably prone to initiating force.  I too would be interested in reading Rand's response to that, or that of any other Objectivist who could pick that apart.   


Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 52

Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 1:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Pete wrote (to Rick),
I agree that the letter you linked to is a very coherent and persuasive case for free market anarchism. I am not a proponent of anarchism, but I am having a hard time thinking of an effective refutation for the bit about how government is inescapably prone to initiating force. I too would be interested in reading Rand's response to that, or that of any other Objectivist who could pick that apart.
Okay, I'll pick it apart. The government does not have to initiate force to keep out competition from a rival legal system, for if the government's laws are based on individual rights, an alternative legal system would necessarily be in violation of those rights and therefore tantamount to an outlaw gang that should be prohibited from operating. By prohibiting its operation, the government would not be initiating force; it would be employing retaliatory or defensive force.

Nor does anarchism constitute a coherent political system. What, according to anarchists, would involve a violation of their theory? The existence of a government? I don't think so, for an anarchist defense agency would have a right to do exactly what an Objectivist government does, if it happened to acquire the same degree of power and could get away with exercising it. There is nothing in libertarianism that would forbid an anarchist defense agency from attempting to monopolize the administration of justice, if doing so were at all feasible. Why should such an agency allow a competing government to operate if the latter has a legal system at odds with its own? Clearly, it should not. On the contrary, it should make every effort to prohibit its operation.

After all, the purpose of a defense agency is to defend its clients against a violation of their rights. If another agency had laws whose enforcement the first agency viewed as violating people's rights, then why should the first agency permit it to operate? Of course, it should not. But by prohibiting its operation, the first agency would be attempting to "monopolize" the enforcement of justice; it would be acting like the very government to which anarchists say they are opposed.

Alternatively, for a government to "permit" an anarchist society to exist, the government would have to abstain from enforcing its own laws against a competing government that was committed to enforcing a different set of laws. But to do that would be to abdicate its function as an agency that is devoted to the defense of people's rights. And if it should not defend its own laws against other agencies - against any scofflaw agency that would violate them - then why should an anarchist defense agency do so? It too should abstain from enforcing its own laws, in which case, what you would have is a society in which no legal agency should enforce its own laws. But then why have a defense, or law-enforcement, agency in the first place?

Nor is it clear how one could ever get from here to the kind of society that anarchists envision, for to do so, the government would have to allow other agencies with a different set of laws the right to compete with it, which means that it would have to abstain from enforcing its own laws. It is naive to think that defense agencies with conflicting laws would invariably compromise on their differences in order to avoid a violent conflict. If violence were the bete noir of a law-enforcement agency, it would never attempt to enforce its own laws to begin with, because to do so, it would have to engage in violence.

Besides, if we assume that these competing agencies would be willing to compromise on their differences, as anarchists typically claim they would, then to that extent the agencies would be in agreement on a uniform set of laws, and insofar as they were willing to enforce those laws against dissenters, would be acting as a de facto government.

Finally, insofar as anarchism sanctions the enforcement of competing and therefore mutually incompatible views of justice, it necessarily sanctions the initiation of force, because if two legal systems are in competition with each other, then at least one of them must be unjust and therefore coercive. To require that both of them be allowed to operate within a civilized society is to sanction a violation of rights and to betray the very principle of liberty on which libertarianism depends.

As far as I can see, anarchism is a hopelessly muddled, self-contradictory theory that cannot withstand critical examination. Yet, surprisingly, it continues to garner support among certain "libertarians." I put the term "libertarians" in quotes, because I do not regard anarchists as bona fide libertarians, since they don't actually believe in liberty. They may claim they do, but the theory they advocate is incompatible with it.

- Bill

Post 53

Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 10:08amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

The Contradiction in Anarchism
by Robert J. Bidinotto (Bidinotto@compuserve.com)
Copyright (C) 1994, Robert J. Bidinotto, All Rights Reserved

Excerpts:

What anarchists omit from their basic premises is a simple fact: conflicting philosophies will lead to conflicting interpretations of the meaning of such basic terms as "aggression," "self- defense," "property," "rights," "justice," and "liberty." Deducing away, syllogism after syllogism, from these mere words does not mean that the people employing them agree on their meaning, justification or implementation.
After all, would you hire an agency that couldn't adequately protect your own interpretation of your rights? Consider the justly-maligned profession of defense attorneys. They'll defend any client for a buck, using any argument, any tactic to boost their chances of winning, truth be damned. (When people today say, "I need a good lawyer," do they mean "I need a pillar of integrity" -- or do they mean instead: "I need a guy who can win for me"?) Would anyone argue that it is merely the fact of "government courts" that make these shysters possible? Don't you suppose that they would find similar employment in a totally privatized system, in which the "sovereign consumer" reigns?
Then why limit such amoral, anything-to-win behavior only to attorneys? Isn't it reasonable to assume the same motives would govern at least a significant portion of "protective agents"?
Today, a "legal monopoly" exists to put shady private detectives and private extortionists behind bars. It serves as a final arbiter on the use of force in society. We all agree it does a less-than-exemplary job much of the time; but it's there. What happens when it isn't? Or worse: when the shady detective or extortionist has replaced it, in a marketplace where profits depend on satisfying the subjective desires of emotional clients?
Anarchists say this scenario is unrealistically pessimistic: it assumes people are going to want to do the wrong thing. In fact, people "naturally" seek their rational self-interest, they declare, once government is out of the way. They would try to cooperate, work things out.
Well, if they did, why would they need any agency -- governmental or private? Why wouldn't five billion people naturally cooperate on this planet without any legal or institutional framework to resolve disputes?
Under anarcho-capitalism, "the public" is called "the market," and "votes with its dollars" to have its way about the use of force in society. In a political system (i.e., under a "monopolistic government"), "the public" is called a "political constituency," and votes with ballots in order to have its way about the use of force in society.
But in the latter case, if the government has been constitutionally limited, the masses are typically thwarted in having their way at the expense of others. They can't use force to do anything they want. As private criminals, their acts are limited by the government. And government agents themselves are limited by the Constitution. Our Founders were geniuses at limiting power. It's taken lovers of coercion over 200 years to subvert our Founder's system to its current state; and still, our system is far from being totalitarian.
In the market, by contrast, what's to stop thugs, and by what standard? Surely no private company would deliberately handcuff itself, with separations and divisions of powers, and checks and balances. Such silly, inefficient "gridlock" and "red tape" would only make it less competitive. No, a competitive company must be flexible to respond to shifting "market demand." That means the demand for whatever consumers may want, anything at all. It can't tie its own hands by limiting itself. After all, some other company or industry would always be willing to operate without such moral self-limitation. What firm would restrain itself, when the sleazy, unscrupulous Acme Protective Service across town is just itching for the same customer contracts, and willing to promise clients "no limits?"
Anarchists proclaim faith that in the marketplace, all the "protection" companies would rationally work everything out. All companies in the private sector, they assert, have a vested interest in peace. Their reputations and profits, you see, rest on the need for mutual cooperation, not violence.
Oh? What about a reputation for customer satisfaction -- and the profits that go with getting results? I guess anarchists have no experience in the private sector with shyster lawyers, protection rackets, software pirates and the like. Aren't they, too, responding to market demand?
If the "demand" for peace is paramount, please explain the bloody history of the world.
Anarcho-capitalists forget their own Austrian economics. It was Von Mises who described the marketplace as the ultimate democracy, where "sovereign consumers voted with their dollars" to fulfill their desires. Not necessarily good desires, mind you: just "desires." Whatever they happened to be. The market was itself amoral: it simply satisfied the desires of the greatest number. (That's why Howard Stern sells better than Isaac Stern.)
In other words, the market, like water, can't rise higher than its source. And its source is the people -- the same people who vote in a representative political system. The marketplace is no more moral than the people who are "voting with their dollars." If there's a demand, some supplier will always come along to fill it -- a demand for anything from chocolates to child prostitutes. What "market mechanism" would arise to distinguish between the two -- and by what right and standard would it enforce such distinctions?
Even if 99 percent of "protection agents" behave rationally, all you'd need is one "secessionist" outlaw agency, with it's own novel interpretation of "rights" and "justice," tailored to appeal to some "customer base" of bigots, religious fanatics, disgruntled blue collar workers or amoral tycoons with money to burn. Do anarchists care to argue that outlaw agencies -- given our current intellectual and philosophical "marketplace" -- would have no such constituencies? Dream on.
Oops -- did I say "outlaw?" Under anarchy, there is no final determiner of the law." There would be no final standard for settling disputes, e. g., a Constitution. That would be a "monopoly legal system," you see. That's because anarchists support the unilateral right of any individual or group to secede from a governing framework. (After all -- wrote anarchist Lysander Spooner a century ago -- I didn't sign the Constitution, did I?)
So whose laws, rules, definitions and interpretations are going to be final?
The answer to unlimited government is not the "unlimited democracy" of the Misesian marketplace. Mises knew better (read his Bureaucracy). But anarchist rationalists, like Rothbard, haven't yet figured out that "force" is not just like any other good or service on the marketplace.
Put another way: the anarcho-capitalist position amounts to the demand that one's own use of force be immune from the moral evaluation and response of others. It is a demand for the right to secede from the judgments of other people concerning the validity of one's own use of force. It is a denial that there is a basic need to subject any use of force to objective -- that is, socially demonstrable -- standards.
No, force isn't like any other "good": by its nature, it poses unique hazards to the lives, rights and well-being of the innocent. When someone uses force against another, it's rarely self-evident who is the victim, and who the victimizer -- who is attacking, and who is defending. Yet maintaining a functioning society requires that the rest of us determine who is at fault, so that our rights will be protected and justice maintained. Thus, force always must be subject to outside constraint -- and its use must be subjected to an impartial, objective, ex post facto process of social judgment. That's the purpose of laws, courts and public trials, i.e., of government.
The basic premise of anarcho-capitalism is false. There is no such thing as the "right" to employ force unilaterally -- then to remain immune from the requirement to publicly, objectively justify that use of force. No such right exists. So it is no "violation of rights" to require individuals to submit to an objective process to justify, publicly, their uses of force -- i.e., to submit to governmental authority.
3. Finally, the Constitution is not any sort of "contract" requiring anyone's signature -- because it's binding, not on the people, but on the government itself. It wasn't established to limit the people; it was established to limit government. It is a document setting up a system by which individual rights will be protected, even from government itself.
The whole point of a single, constitutionally limited government is to limit force and coercion -- by private parties, and by the government itself. Ayn Rand argued that government was a means of subjecting might to morality. That's not a mere social luxury; it's a basic requirement of human survival.
In any society, human life and well-being mandates that there be a set of objective procedures to distinguish aggression from self-defense, and some way of imposing the final verdicts upon both victimizers and victims. It would be impossible for individuals to pursue self- interest within a social context if such determinations were never made -- or made arbitrarily -- or never enforced.
Hence the problem with the rationalistic argument for anarcho- capitalism begins with its opening premises: with the definitions of terms such as "force," "coercion," "rights," "liberty," "aggressor," "protection," "retaliation," "defense," etc. Anarchists simply deduce away from these concepts, which remain as floating abstractions in everyone's minds. We all think we mean the same things by them. But the contextual consideration omitted by the anarchists is that each of these terms acquires different meanings depending on the philosophy of the interpreter. And at last count, there are about 5.5 billion interpreters on our planet.
Summary:
The fundamental moral rationale for anarchism is that government inherently entails aggression (the initiation of force), while anarchism does not. On this contention, the anarchists’ entire theoretical case against government hinges.
Specifically, their moral claims are that (1) government must compel involuntary taxation to sustain its activities, (2) government initiates force and coercion to outlaw "competing" protection agencies and legal systems, and (3) anarcho-capitalism avoids both moral problems.
Here, very briefly, are my summary replies:
(1) There is no inherent reason why a government that’s limited only to bare-bones justice functions will require taxation to exist. The necessary services of a proper government – police, laws, courts, even defense – could be funded voluntarily, generally on a fee-for-service basis, along with (but not limited to) such supplemental non-coercive mechanisms as lotteries, special fund-raisers, and employment of volunteers.
(2) Governments do not need to outlaw "private protection agencies" – and in actuality, they don’t. We already have an abundance of private detectives, bounty hunters, security police, mediators, arbitrators, bodyguards, private prisons, etc., all operating legally and in parallel to the governmental system.
However, government does require that all such individuals and agencies conform to, and operate within, a single, overarching framework of law. Why? Because you can’t allow "market competition" over the very definitions and meanings of such basic legal principles as "justice," "rights," "aggression," "self-defense," etc.
You can’t have a viable, peaceful society with each competing individual, demographic group, street gang, religious faction, et al., deciding, unilaterally and subjectively, who is a "victim" and who a "criminal" – then claiming the "sovereign right" to ignore the contrary legal claims, rules, definitions, principles, and verdicts of everyone else.
And that brings us to...
(3) Contrary to its supporters, anarcho-capitalism embodies an inherent moral and logical contradiction.
Most of the saner anarchist theorists contend that a "just" agency (or even an innocent victim) has the right to forcibly respond to an "aggressor." But in the marketplace, which is governed solely by profit incentives, who will define who is the "aggressor" and who the "victim"? Which "private defense agency" has the final authority to enforce its definitions against those used by other competing agencies – or against individual "hold outs" who disagree – or against all those who proclaim a "sovereign right" to "secede" from that agency’s determination?
When push comes to shove – as it often will, anarcho-fantasies to the contrary notwithstanding – the "private defense agency" faces a basic choice. Either (a) it uses coercion to enforce its verdict upon the "hold out" (or upon "competing agencies"), or (b) it fails to enforce its verdicts.
If (a), then the "private defense agency" is coercively "eliminating the competition" – that is, it's behaving as a "legal monopoly on force," in exactly the same way that anarchists find morally intolerable when a government is doing it. In that case, the argument for the moral superiority (let alone moral purity) of anarchism’s "private defense agency" collapses.
If (b), however, then the agency’s pronouncements are toothless and impotent. In that case, all that anyone need do to evade the private agency’s criminal laws, verdicts, and sentences, is simply to ignore them.
Since many anarchists have tried gamely to ignore this key point, let me make it harder for them by repeating it.
Folks, it’s really either/or. Either "private defense agencies" enforce their laws, or they don’t.
If they do enforce their laws, then (by anarcho-definitions) they're "coercively" imposing their private legal systems on their competitors. And there goes their claim to morality.
But if they don't enforce their laws, then criminals will remain free to prey with impunity upon innocent individuals. And there goes the neighborhood.
Anarchists simply cannot tap dance around this dilemma by such subterfuges and dodges as claiming, "Oh, but governments would be far worse than private agencies" – or "Historically, limited governments never remain ‘limited’."
Again, the moral case for anarchism is not that it is less bad than government, or that governments historically have not acted properly. The core anarchist claim is that anarchism is inherently non-aggressive, while government is inherently aggressive.
But both aspects of this claim are utterly and completely false.
There is nothing "immoral" or "aggressive" about an institution having the final authority to render and enforce just verdicts, according to objective procedures and rules of evidence. The fact that verdicts – by their very nature as final legal decisions – must be enforced against "outlaws," is not aggression, but defense: the organized social defense of the rights of innocent individuals against their victimizers. And the fact that final enforcement of legally rendered verdicts necessarily precludes further "competition," or "secession" by dissenters, is not aggression, either: it’s simply recognition of reality.
After all, an unenforced rule is not a law, but merely a suggestion.
Experience tells us that criminals do not respond to mere suggestions.
And experience also tells us (at least those of us not mired in rationalistic theorizing) that to protect individual rights, society needs a single agency that retains the ultimate, final power to enforce justice for all.
Bob’s answers to some internet critics:
>>Yes, retaliatory and defensive force - enforcement of rights against their violation - is legitimate force. So you accept that government is not an agreement, that government is not law, government is a monopoly on legitimate force within a geographic area?
Government is all of these things.
So then a sole manufacturer by virtue of efficiency and price is not a monopoly.
>>That's right.
You can not be correct in this. If a company or individual is the sole provider of something, it must by definition be a monopoly. In this case it is a monopoly by virtue, which is why a distinction between coercive and non-coercive monopolies was required.
:>>To avoid this complaint - if he accepts the definition of government as it is usually used at least in the English language and in discourse on the matter - aynfan would have to show how the government somehow have the right to forbid competition (which is what Nozick tried to do).
I repeat, if a government is not coercive why would there be a need for competition, unless you were a statist who hated the "weakness" of non-coercive government?
>>Because legitimate force can be provided in a variety of different ways, and I might prefer one way to another.
I have never quarreled with that. Hire your own bodyguards, who cares. But if a murder slipped by your bodyguards, and the ‘government’ police just happen by and saved you, I do not think you would complain.
>>The point is that the government has no rational way to make these allocations.
Government as it is presently constituted.
>>The situation would be different if police services were supplied on a free, competitive market. In that case, consumers would pay for whatever degree of protection they wish to purchase.
Government does not have to disappear for this to happen.
>>. A drive for efficiency would be insured, as it always is on the market, by the compulsion to make profits and avoid losses, and thereby to keep costs low and to serve the highest demands of the consumers. Any police firm that suffers from gross inefficiency would soon go bankrupt and disappear.
It is not inefficiencies that one should fear. One should to be concerned about methods, the quality of the laws that these agencies enforce. If they can create their own law codes, it would be at least chaotic and at worse a loss of liberty. Would you allow police firms the freedom to enforce any set of rules that suited them? If you would, you will have, for example, police protection agencies owned or heavily funded by pederasts which can protect them from punishment as they bugger little boys. They are many other examples I could cite.
>>Competition ensures that resources in the industry are allocated to where they are most needed, ensures that resources aren't wasted, ensures that customers wanting legitimate force get value for money, and ensures that customers get the style of protection they prefer.
You have made this point many times, but you advocate for it in a vacuum, without any thought to implementation. First you object to licensing, so anyone with any degree of experience or lack of it can be a protection agency; all they need is the start up capital.
Second, would you not want licensed Doctors? Who would license them? A private agency is your answer. Which private agency, and how could they earn a living doing it? The first person or investigative reporter who purchased the information would disseminate it. It would be available in the public library, no profit there. The only people who could make a living promoting such a licensing agency would be doctors themselves. They would probably form a guild that would put a stamp of approval on physicians, and exclude those doctors who chose not to pay their ‘dues’. The guild would, of course, be coercive, a closed shop, just as labor unions are. Some doctors would resist and you would have unlicensed Doctors practicing, especially among the poor, at a reduced rate, but you would have no measure of their competence. By virtue of their poverty the poor would be disadvantaged, and don’t kid yourself "the poor will always be with us". Under a moral government, voluntarily financed, the poor would be virtually exempt from paying, but would still benefit from the armed forces, the police and civil courts. These benefits would be a gift to men of lesser economic ability from those of greater ability without any sacrifice on the part of the latter.
As to voting "with your dollars", why can’t you see that same people who vote in a representative political system would be the ones voting with their dollars. They would be no better or worse than the idiots who vote now. To paraphrase Bidinotto, if there's a demand for anything from chocolates to child prostitutes some supplier will always come along to fill it. What "market mechanism" would arise to distinguish between the two -- and by what right and standard would it enforce such distinctions? You are opening a door to agencies with their own interpretation of "rights" and "justice," who will tailor their services to appeal to baser instincts. They would seek out and become rich with a customer base of bigots, religious fanatics, disgruntled blue-collar workers or amoral tycoons with money to burn and a yen for sexual murder.
Do anarchists care to argue that agencies like this would have no constituencies?
>>I didn't say "government must be bad or it isn't can't be government," did I? I said that a "natural monopoly" in the provision of legitimate force "would still not be a legitimate government, since it would not command the allegiance of, nor have the right to rule over, anybody that did not buy its protection services."
Why would it not be a government? I know today’s governments are awful examples, but even today people go underground to avoid taxes. They work only for cash, and stay under government’s radar, and yet government is not any less government. Under a moral government that did not collect taxes, the government would have no interest in individuals as long as they did not commit violent acts.
>>If you think this is "the usual crap," then perhaps you can explain why? Perhaps you can explain why somebody who doesn't want anybody to protect him
I do want protection; it is the only legitimate function of government. If you want a different kind of protection from a private agency, so be it. But there has to be one universal set of rules, an even playing field. Private agencies can not be allowed to legislate, i.e., invent their own set of laws for the many reasons cited above.


Post 54

Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I appreciate Robert Davison's excerpts from Bob Bidinotto's article criticizing anarchism, but I think that if the discussion is trending in this direction, a separate thread should be devoted to it. Frequently, these threads veer so far off topic that what is being discussed bears no semblance to the original subject. So, again, I am taking the liberty of redirecting the discussion to a new thread, in which I criticize one of the arguments made in Davison's post. While I agree with the main thrust of that post, I do not think that all of the arguments made there against anarchism are correct. Those interested in my rejoinder should look for it in the Dissent Forum under the title "Anarchism versus Government."

- Bill

Post 55

Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I aided and abetted the hijacking, and I apologize.  I'm usually good about starting another thread when I want to engage a tangential point, but I was lazy this time.  Sorry, Robert D., for veering off the topic of your original article. 

Post 56

Monday, January 16, 2006 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Pete,

No problem.


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2


User ID Password or create a free account.