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Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:47amSanction this postReply
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Outstanding!

I find it ironic that the recipient of the first letter bears a name strikingly similar to that of a pungent herb and a particular breed of attack dog.

    


Post 1

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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Yes, exactly!!! LOL!

- Bill

Post 2

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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Bill:
~Interesting analysis of Catholicism's representation of all the 'mainstream' religions' belief basis: Obey, or Else. The Old Testament (Christ's later'complementing' such, nwst), IS what the western faiths are all about, bottom-line. Indeed, it's the attitude of the traditional patriarchical 'family'...and...its moral justification.
~I also had 12 yrs RC, but, all with nuns, and no traumatic incident re the 'brother' you described to trigger this, as Luke says, 'OUTSTANDING' commentary-cum-letter. Your letter shows the contrastingly hypocritical bear-trap under the velvet-gloved guise of over-hyped PR'd benevolence in 'peaceful' religions of any stripe.

LLAP
J:D


Post 3

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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Bill:

PS: I suspect that most Catholics as well as non-RC's, aren't aware of your insightful perspective. 'Official' religion-advocates (TV-evang, bishops, etc) do a good con job re what they're really all about.

LLAP
J:D


Post 4

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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Fine letter, Bill. Points to you.

I especially liked this: 
It is ironic that when things do not act in a normal fashion -- according to the way one would expect them to act -- theists posit a miracle, claiming the miracle as evidence of supernatural involvement. For they claim that if God were not involved, then things would act in a normal, predictable fashion. Conversely, if things act in an orderly fashion, theists claim this as evidence of supernatural involvement, citing the Argument from Design.
Moreover, when natural events are disastrous to man (e.g. earthquakes), God is exempt from blame.


Post 5

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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What all of the above said.

Sam


Post 6

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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I've often wondered how religion can continue to have such a hold on Americans since America was founded by and still predominately is made up of men and women who would never bow down to any real live king or emperor yet think nothing of prostrating themselves before a figment of their imagination.

Post 7

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 3:35pmSanction this postReply
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Are you still on the mailing list, Bill?

I love it when people grab opportunities like this. Kudos.


Post 8

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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Are you still on the mailing list, Bill?
I was for quite some time thereafter, believe it or not. I no longer receive anything from them, since I moved. Fortunately, I was never assaulted by this guy, but came close a couple of times, once when he caught me talking in the library. And in one of my classes, the kid sitting next to me was being beaten to a bloody pulp by the same teacher for not paying attention. As I was watching from across the aisle, he turned to me and said, "Oh, you want some of this too?" This guy was also the coach of the baseball team and was held in high esteem by the rest of the faculty.

Nor was he the only Christian brother in the school to resort to physical violence against students. I remember an incident, in which another teacher arrived late to class and caught the students milling around and talking. He promptly walked up to one of the bigger students and smacked him hard across the face, evidently to set an example to the other students. We were supposed to be seated, quietly awaiting his arrival. This was routine stuff, but it was done only by the Christian brothers, never by any of the lay teachers. I guess they felt that God was on their side. God is Great!, after all, and anything is permitted as long as you are one of his chosen emissaries and are doing his work. The radical Muslims have simply extended this attitude to its logical conclusion.

I used to work with a black guy from Nigeria, who told me similar stories about his Catholic schooling in that country. The Irish priests would take the young black kids outside the school for various infractions and physically whip them. Again, this was tolerated, because the priests were men of God who had HIS august authority to back them up. We've all heard stories about Catholic nuns rapping students on the knuckles with a ruler if they misspelled a word. But whipping them?? For some reason, the more extreme forms of physical violence are the ones you never hear about.

- Bill


Post 9

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:21pmSanction this postReply
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My Brother-in-Law, who went to Catholic School, said the best way to make your children atheists is to send them to parochial school.

But I think the idea of violence being a problem in school is both dated and applicable to all schools. Catholic schools simply held on to the knuckle-rapping tradition longer. Ever heard of the horrors of an English' schoolboy's education? When I was a teen, children like my younger sister were fleeing the chaos of the public schools. The scandal at the local Catholic school had nothing to do with teacher misconduct - the students were sneaking into the confessionals to have sex.

While children of all and no religion in NYC literally mourn when they can't get into Catholic schools, it seems a bit anachronistic and self-congratulatory to worry about the bugbears of our youths.

Ted



Post 10

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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Hey, let's cut the Catholic Church some slack here.  They're starting to go on record that unbaptized stillborns have a shot at heaven: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/28/AR2007042800831.html 

Post 11

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:45pmSanction this postReply
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Too little, too late, Pete.

Post 12

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:57pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Horrible abuse was rumored, but no one ever openly talked about it. Getting a whack with a ruler was the most anyone would admit to receiving.

I can't believe parents would send their kids back after coming home all bruised and bloodied.  But then again, like my dad would say, Catholics have so many kids, none of them get enough attention!

I heard a comedian make a comment during a stand up routine some time ago,  something like, "How many of you went to Catholic school?  Yeah, you know what they call us now? Atheists!"  Then he went on and on about how horrible the nuns treated the kids in school.

I always thought it was an overblown joke, but now I know better.  



Post 13

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and the Blessed Saints Preserve Us!

It's funny, my parents always warned me how ignorant and prejudiced Southerners and Westerners are about Catholics. And they also told me all about their own public and Catholic School experiences. I had the choice, and went to public school. Calvinists and Evangelicals are ever so much worse in the way they treat children. Catholics have been allowed to dance since the Council of Trent, at least. Ever hear of "Footloose," anyone? Teresa, surely you must have seen at least one of those movies in the 1980's about Catholic School in the 1950's. A tradition of sadistic nuns and monks are apparently a secret only here. Claiming to be "shocked, simply shocked" about what has long been public knowledge is bizarre. If the purpose of this thread is just cheap shots at Catholicism, surely there are better ways to waste one's time.

Ted

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Post 14

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 3:45amSanction this postReply
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 Teresa, surely you must have seen at least one of those movies in the 1980's about Catholic School in the 1950's.
Only ones I can remember are those Father Flannigan movies with Micky Rooney, but those surely didn't give me a clue.

I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood in Detroit, well sheltered from it, too. All I knew about them were the strange dietary traditions, having a big party for First Communion, and Catechism, which my play mates all detested having to attend.

My parents were extremely biased against Catholics, AND bible thumping fundamentalists in general.  My mother was very religious, but grounded to a fault.  She knew she lived on Earth. Dad never cared much for religion at all.

My experience with Catholics, in general, has always been a good one, so I never really understood my parents' extreme dislike for them.  Those with large families weren't any different than Prodestants with large families, but the later always seemed to earn more respect, and better natured jokes.

When I was 13, my mother had my baby brother. During her labor in a Catholic hospital, a nun pinned a metal of a saint to my mother's gown, which she promptly tore off, but amazingly kept.  I asked my mother why she kept it, and mom told me that she'd realized that the act of pinning the metal on to her was the nun's way of offering my mother some comfort. She appreciated it in a cultural way. 

I realized then that my mother didn't really hate Catholics.


Post 15

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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Bill:

     Re the nuns and their rulers and knuckle-rapping: they ain't just 'stories.'

    To be clear and accurate (not to mention fair) though, such occurrences were rare (in my experience), though the knowledge (and later, perception) that they (or a couple noted ones) would act so probably kept down some (much?) behaviour probs. Reputation has its usable worthwhileness. And, there were a few students who deserved at least that. Can't say though that any nuns went 'overboard.'

     I vaguely remember rumors of a 'spanking machine' kept in The-Principal's-Office (!) in 2nd grade.  :)

LLAP
J:D


Post 16

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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"I asked my mother why she kept it, and mom told me that she'd realized that the act of pinning the metal on to her was the nun's way of offering my mother some comfort."

To me, this is more profoundly indicative of an ethical sensibility on your mother's part than any standard Objectivist protestation of narrow material self-interest. Not that there's anything wrong with mere material self interest, but mere material self interest is of value to allow us happiness - a spiritual value. Without happiness, immortality were a curse.

Ted

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Post 17

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
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A tradition of sadistic nuns and monks are apparently a secret only here. Claiming to be "shocked, simply shocked" about what has long been public knowledge is bizarre. If the purpose of this thread is just cheap shots at Catholicism, surely there are better ways to waste one's time.
Let me remind you that I wrote that letter in 1983 in response to a request for donations from that educational hell hole, which I personally experienced and had to deal with on a daily basis. How dare you belittle my outrage! Speaking of cheap shots, your posts are themselves a cheap shot, and unworthy of someone who is sympathetic to Objectivism. If you think responding to my article is a waste of time, then please do me a favor, and don't waste any more of YOUR time responding to it!

- Bill


Post 18

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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Since nothing I said above was aimed at Bill as an individual, or intended to upset him, I have responded to him privately and will not defend my comments now, other than to say I don't at this point see anything wrong with either the literal or intended meaning of my words.

Ted

P.S. And since this post itself is not meant as an attack, nor it it posted in the expectation of a riposte, I request that others pay us the courtesy of letting me try to discuss it with him in private.


(Edited by Ted Keer
on 5/22, 7:25pm)


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Post 19

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 10:08pmSanction this postReply
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Just so there's no misunderstanding, when I said that Ted's posts were themselves a cheap shot, I was referring only to the ones on this thread, not to his other posts. I appreciate his stating that his comments were not directed at me personally, but they were directed against objections to the very same history of abuse within the Catholic Church that I was objecting to in my article.
Teresa, surely you must have seen at least one of those movies in the 1980's about Catholic School in the 1950's.
Surely? Even I didn't see them, so why assume that they're common knowledge?
A tradition of sadistic nuns and monks are apparently a secret only here.
Despite his disclaimer, this remark had to be directed at me, because it was I who said that my letter "exposes a facet of Catholic education that most non-Catholics are probably not aware of, namely, its extreme violence and brutality."

In any case, I don't understand his taking offense at the mere mention of conduct that he regards as common knowledge and to which Objectivism, by its very nature, is radically opposed. I could better understand Ted's reaction if the Catholic Church were his spiritual ally, but it's more than a little strange for an Objectivist to react this way.

- Bill

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