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Monday, August 13, 2007 - 7:03amSanction this postReply
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As usual, Joe, the clarity of your writing is exemplary.

Sam


Post 1

Monday, August 13, 2007 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Is this woman a biologist or does she work in some other field?

Ted

Post 2

Monday, August 13, 2007 - 5:51pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you Sam. I appreciate the compliment.

Ted, you're the second person to ask me that after I told the story. What's the thinking? Is it that biologists are prone to this error? Or that irrational women are prone to biology? I'm curious.

And yes, she was a biologist.

Post 3

Monday, August 13, 2007 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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Positivism and Compartmentalization

No, actually, a recent "study" showed that Biologists tend more than any other type of scientist to be outright atheists. Perhaps because physicists deal with phenomena that are unknowable on some scale, they may tend to seek a prime mover. In that study, actually a survey published in American Scientist, there were a few theists, no deists, and mostly atheists among biologists. Most physicists also described themselves as atheists, but there were some deists and about an equal number of theists.

Biology from a third person perspective doesn't really have any of the cosmological mysteriousness left in it. The spontaneous origin of life from unguided chemical processes is seen as hardly controversial. Evolution is well established as a fact and as a developed theoretical structure. People who don't know any biology might find life mysterious and seek a creator, but their is no need to posit anything like a prime mover for biologists.

It seems like your acquaintance has been well trained in Popper's positivism, and self-trained in compartmentalization. But positivism is long out of fashion in philosophy. The you can't know anything for certain statement is self-refuting, and you'd think a Biologist would know that. Unfortunately, the best way to cure a skeptic is to drive on the wrong side of the road with him as a passenger. The attempted cure may not be worth the results.

As I told you in our last chat session (Plug for the Feature!) there is a lot that Objectivists should learn from science and even more that scientists need from Objectivism.

Ted Keer

Post 4

Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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Was the following a slip: "Through a process of reasoning, you're trying to determine the validity of the premise"? The reason I ask is that a premise is either true or false (or not known as either), but it is arguments that are valid. Now Rand uses the term "validate" to mean "determine the truth of," but this is, I think, an infelicity on her part. As to the substance, your friend seems to be influenced by the Popperian idea of fallabilism as far as knowledge is concerned. This is a long story, somewhat akin to the pragmatists' road to their idea of practical belief. None have had the benefit of Objectivism's--and J. L. Austin's--idea of contextual knowledge.


Post 5

Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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Extreme skepticism is itself a form of dogmatism. It radically claims that knowledge is unknowable or fundamentally unreal. It wildly and blindly says that truth isn't true or doesn't even exist. It's a form of nihilism -- and very inappropriate for a scientist.   

Post 6

Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 10:15pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Tibor, I wasn't trying to use it in the valid-argument/true-premise way.  By the way, what do you think about an explanation.  Is that something that is true, or something that is valid?

As for the fallibilism, I hesitate a little.  I can agree that there's clearly an influence and the argument does sound like she's taking that position, I just don't think it's primary.  It seemed that it was all just an excuse.  She was just as willing to latch onto subjective reality, or any other premise, to support her desire never to be sure of a conviction.

Kyrel, I agree that it is inappropriate for a scientist (or anyone, for that matter!).  This article was an explanation of why.


Post 7

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 2:45amSanction this postReply
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I tend to give benefit of doubt about what motivates folks and in my discipline this cautionary stance often has as its origin the dislike of the Platonic-Cartesian idealist view of what knowledge must be. History shows that the truths produced by some had to be revised, modified, reconceived in time; so many refuse to make any commitments. They aren't epistemologists, anyway, let alone contextualists.As to explanations, I would credit the one's that succeed as, well, successful or good or sound, while those that fail as the opposite. (BTW, in Hungarian, "to explain" is literally "to render into Hungarian"--"elmagyarazni.")

Post 8

Tuesday, May 7, 2013 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

This is another article from the past - an excellent article - that deserves a fresh viewing.

Joe, you have a real talent clearly explaining epistemological theories.
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I took this as an opportunity to approach the epistemological issues of certainty, fallibility, and the degrees of skepticism from the context of purpose. In the broadest of terms, there is purpose to knowing things - surviving and flourishing. And there is a process of knowing things. The process will involve using premises as building blocks while understanding that those premises were once conclusions themselves. And regardless of what any particular philosopher might say, we all know that each conclusion is accorded some degree of certainty. It can be denied, but the denial itself can be taken apart to reveal it's building blocks. And we know that the two extremes of "We can never know anything with any certainty" and the other extreme of omniscience are both too silly or self-contradictory to entertain. They both fail from acting as if there were no context.

I'm reminded of how one navigates a boat. It presupposes a destination and arriving there becomes your goal. That sets the purpose and the context for your navigation. You might use the nautical chart to conceptualize the planning and progress of the voyage. That chart has your destination on it. We don't automatically know how to get from where we are to where we want to go. We might not even know with adequate accuracy where we are as time goes by, given the vagaries of currents and the boat's drift. We need to find our location on the chart to calculate the best course to set. Every instrument we use will have some degree of error. We don't know exactly how many degrees off our compass sightings will be - 3%, 6%? Is there a predictable error in the compass itself that we need to add or subtract? We might note how much water the depth sounder says is under the boat, to compare that to depth contours on the chart, but do we need to adjust that for the state of tide? For the height of the average swell?

We need to mark an estimate of where we are on the chart so as to determine any needed course corrections. The course we choose is our conclusion and our premises all have some error built in (compass errors, compass sighting errors, depth sounder reading errors, etc.) Our job was to estimate the margins for those errors and adjust our estimated position accordingly. If we find our location to be X, give or take 1/4 mile as the sum of the individual margins for error, then we might mark the position 1/4 mile out from the nearest danger point our course would take us near. The process of sailing, and the understanding of the dangers, and the processes employed to reach that far harbor determine the amount of accuracy needed. That is opposite the approach of those who will say that no certainty is possible, which is really like trying to think thoughts but without any context. The goal and its context determine the amount of certainty that is called for. Then one can work to get the premises to meet that standard... before pulling a conclusion from them.

Leaving the area of sailing... Theism, atheism, or agnosticism? If we agree that there is no evidence that has been presented for the existence of a God that could be called valid, then the context given us by logic makes us an atheist. We accept the rules of logic as our context and it sets our margin of error. What is my certainty that there is no God? 100%. It comes from having no doubts that my understanding of the different arguments for God are adequate to rule each one out. And I have no doubts that believing in the conclusion that there is a God (as defined in various ways, to this date), would require that one or more of those arguments be true. Might some one come up with a different definition? Yes, but no one is obligated to examine that claim to existence and its arguments until then.

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