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Post 0

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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This graphically demonstrates Rand’s dictum, “If you discern contradictions, examine your premises.” There is no such thing as a grey area with respect to truth and falsehood — you just haven’t examined the logic at a deep enough level. Grey areas are called grey areas because contradictions exist.
She surely objected to grey areas with underlying contradictions, but did allow for grey areas in another sense. She called them "borderline cases".




Post 1

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 2:38pmSanction this postReply
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Paul,

You make an interesting analogy between black and white pixels and true and false statements. You write,
Suppose we dispense with the Mandelbrot set for the time being. Imagine that we can represent a true statement, for instance, “existence exists,” by a black pixel and a false statement as a white pixel. Knowledge is inexhaustible — we will never be able to know everything about everything, thus there are an infinite number of true statements.
I would say "a potentially infinite number of true statements"; there is always at any time a finite number of true statements, because nothing, including propositional knowledge, is infinite.
As well, the world is infinitely complex, as was succinctly expressed by a programming guru: “Everything is deeply intertwingled.”
The world is highly complex, but not infinitely so.
Thus, all true statements can be linked to one another and they must be mutually supportive.
Could you give an example of what you mean by "mutually supportive"? How, for example, would the true statement, "Ayn Rand was a novelist" be supported by the true statement, "The grass outside my window is green."?
All true statements can be derived from “existence exists.”
You're saying that the proposition "existence exists" implies all true statements. To be sure, the proposition "existence exists" is consistent with all true statements, but I don't think you can derive all true statements from existence exists. Don't you have to verify that a statement is true empirically -- by direct observation?

You wrote,
This graphically demonstrates Rand’s dictum, “If you discern contradictions, examine your premises.” There is no such thing as a grey area with respect to truth and falsehood — you just haven’t examined the logic at a deep enough level. Grey areas are called grey areas because contradictions exist.
Merlin replied, "She surely objected to grey areas with underlying contradictions, but did allow for grey areas in another sense. She called them 'borderline cases'."

But there are no borderline cases between truth and falsehood. By the law of excluded middle, a meaningful proposition is either true false. Truth is "the correspondence of a proposition to the facts of reality." Either the proposition corresponds or it doesn't correspond; there is no third alternative. A person may not know whether or not it corresponds, but lack of knowledge about its correspondence has no bearing on the fact of its correspondence or lack thereof, which exists independently of one's knowledge.

In Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand (pp. 163-171), Peikoff talks about so-called "arbitrary" statements, which he says are neither true nor false, because they lack sufficient content enabling them to be cognitively processed -- to be related to the facts of reality. He gives the example of the following statement: "Your fate will be determined by your birth on the cusp of Capricorn and Aquarius." This statement, he says, is neither true nor false, because since there is no evidence to support it, there is no way of verifying or falsifying it. Accordingly, Peikoff states, "An arbitrary idea must be given the exact treatment its nature demands. One must treat it as though nothing had been said. The reason is that, cognitively speaking, nothing has been said."

In his refutation of agnosticism in the April 1963 issue of The Objectivist Newsletter, Nathaniel Branden makes a similar point about the arbitrary assertion of God's existence. He writes, "When a person makes an assertion for which no rational grounds are given, his statement is -- epistemologically -- without cognitive content. It is as though nothing had been said." So, the Objectivist position on statements such as God exists for which no evidence is provided is to treat them as arbitrary and therefore as neither true nor false.

I think this view is, well, false, because a statement for which no evidence is provided can still be a meaningful statement, and as such is either true or false, even if we don't know which it is and perhaps can never know. Take the statement, "There is life on Mars." If such a statement were asserted arbitrarily with no supporting evidence, would it follow that it is, therefore, neither true nor false? No, for either there is life on Mars or there isn't. If there is life on Mars, then the statement is true (even if we don't know it), and if there isn't life on Mars, then the statement is false (even if we don't know it). The presence or absence of Martian life exhausts the possibilities. A meaningful statement -- and the statement "There is life on Mars" is certainly meaningful -- is either true or false. There is no third alternative.

Of course, neither Peikoff nor Branden is saying that arbitrary statements are "grey" in Paul's sense of the term; they're saying that such statements lack meaning and cannot, therefore, be assessed as either true or false. But to say that, because a statement is arbitrary it lacks meaning is incorrect. Arbitrary statements can still be meaningful. In fact, to call something a "statement" implies that it's meaningful; otherwise, it wouldn't state anything. If it states something, then despite its arbitrariness, it is meaningful and is therefore either true or false. Moreover, to say that, because a statement lacks supporting evidence it cannot be assessed as true or false is not to say that it cannot be true or false. Even if one cannot determined whether or not a meaningful statement corresponds to reality, it either does or it doesn't. There is no third alternative.

- Bill



Post 2

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 3:49pmSanction this postReply
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William Dwyer wrote:
But there are no borderline cases between truth and falsehood. By the law of excluded middle, a meaningful proposition is either true false. Truth is "the correspondence of a proposition to the facts of reality." Either the proposition corresponds or it doesn't correspond; there is no third alternative. A person may not know whether or not it corresponds, but lack of knowledge about its correspondence has no bearing on the fact of its correspondence or lack thereof, which exists independently of one's knowledge.
I don't regard borderline cases to be outside the issue of true/false. In that context a statement can be neither true nor false, but indeterminate. Take the case that Ayn Rand addresses: "a certain primitive organism that biologists are unable to classify as either animals or plants"  (ITOE, 72). Is it an animal or not, true or false? It's a toss up. You may find some biologists that don't think it's a toss up, but what about those who do? I wouldn't call it "meaningless." True/false is a formal distinction. It can't always be applied so cleanly. At least that's my view.




Post 3

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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Bill:

I would say "a potentially infinite number of true statements."

Yes, That's a better wording.

The world is highly complex, but not infinitely so.

If there are potentially an infinite number of true statements then there are an infinite number of relationships connecting them. "True statements" is only one set of things that exist ion the world.

Could you give an example of what you mean by "mutually supportive"? How, for example, would the true statement, "Ayn Rand was a novelist" be supported by the true statement, "The grass outside my window is green."?

Firstly, to the extent that true statements cannot contradict each other — by definition, they are supportive. If you want to change the word "supportive" to "related" or "linked" I have no objection. My proposition, although I can't prove it, is that all truths are ultimately related by some sequence of reasoning. Ayn Rand was a novelist. Novelists write books. Books are printed on paper. Paper can be made from vegetation. Grass is vegetation. Grass is green. If it is grass outside your window, it is green.

... but I don't think you can derive all true statements from existence exists.
 
I'm not able to "prove" anything that I've speculated about but if you can concede that a means might be discovered to relate all true statements then there can  be a hierarchy and, as I don't know any statement that is more elementary than "existence exists", that would be the target. If they are related in a hierarchical fashion then the lower ones can presumably be derived. I just showed how to relate disparate statements, above, but I can't prove that it can be done for every pair of true statements.

Don't you have to verify that a statement is true empirically -- by direct observation?

Well, I suppose the statement would confirm the direct observation.

The article's scope is to provide what, to me, is a useful tool in looking at the the complexities of "truth" and of arguments. We've had plenty of discussions recently where a statement is made, then a refutation challenging part of the allegation and bringing in another complexity, then a further, detailed refutation of the former, and on and on. I liken this to pixels at the border of the "truth" set where more and more magnification is performed. At each level there are some true statements, and some false. The process could continue indefinitely, particularly if new knowledge is discovered.

Sam (Paul)

(Edited by Sam Erica on 10/26, 6:57pm)




Post 4

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 6:45pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "... but I don't think you can derive all true statements from existence exists."

Paul, you replied,
I'm not able to "prove" anything that I've speculated about but if you can concede that a means might be discovered to relate all true statements then there can be a hierarchy and, as I don't know any statement that is more elementary than "existence exists", that would be the target. If they are related in a hierarchical fashion then the lower ones can presumably be derived.
See, I don't think they can. I'd have to say that deriving everything from "existence exists" is a form of rationalism. Accordingly, I wrote, "Don't you have to verify that a statement is true empirically -- by direct observation?"

You replied,
Well, I suppose the statement would confirm the direct observation.
I would say it's just the opposite: The direct observation confirms the statement, which is why I say that you can't derive all knowledge from the proposition that "existence exists," but must arrive at your knowledge by applying reason to the evidence of the senses.

- Bill



Post 5

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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See my edited comments

 ...   but must arrive at your knowledge by applying reason to the evidence of the senses.

Knowledge is gained directly from the senses without the intervention of reason. If my butt hurts, I know it.

If you don't want to accept my proposition that all knowledge can be derived from "Existence exists" then prove it. I'm not going to get involved in a long, time consuming discussion on what I thought was just an article on my ruminations.

Sam


(Edited by Sam Erica on 10/26, 7:11pm)




Post 6

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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Sam (or Paul),

I thought we were talking about propositional knowledge. Only propositions can be true or false.

- Bill



Post 7

Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 2:31amSanction this postReply
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Bill:

My comment about my knowledge about my butt hurting wasn't meant to be serious. My butt hurting isn't knowledge, per se.

But my point about all true statements being linked to "Existence exists" can't be dismissed out of hand.  Here are a series of linked, true statements:

Existence exists.
"Existence exists" can only be known to be true by a conscious entity.
A conscious entity can process its senses.
The source of all knowledge is by means of the senses.
Man can make the connection between the cause of his sensations and the effect by his faculty of reason. (Such as concluding that the reason for the pain is sitting on the pin.)
The process of reasoning can be inductive or deductive.
Inductive reasoning can result in inventions.
(and so on ... so that all inventions can be linked here. "A is A" can surely accommodated somewhere, but don't ask me where.)

I'm not going to quibble about details but I think I've made my point.

Sam




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Post 8

Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 3:26pmSanction this postReply
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This looks a lot like what Spinoza and Leibniz were saying some 300 years ago - that all truths are necessary and logically deducible if we only knew enough to see how.  This is what "rationalist" originally meant before it became Objectivist jargon for Objectivists one disagrees with.
(Edited by Peter Reidy on 10/28, 11:23am)




Post 9

Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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In Post 5, Sam wrote,
If you don't want to accept my proposition that all knowledge can be derived from "Existence exists" then prove it. I'm not going to get involved in a long, time consuming discussion on what I thought was just an article on my ruminations.
Well, if you knew existence exists, could you then deduce the laws of physics, the number of people on earth or the color of my hair? Or would you have to go out and actually acquire that knowledge by observing the relevant facts? You see, I think you're going about this the wrong way. You can't deduce or derive all knowledge simply from your understanding that existence exists. You have to acquire your knowledge empirically by identifying and integrating the evidence of your senses, which is the view that Objectivism espouses.

- Bill



Post 10

Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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Bill:

I said:

"My proposition, although I can't prove it, is that all truths are ultimately related by some sequence of reasoning. Ayn Rand was a novelist. Novelists write books. Books are printed on paper. Paper can be made from vegetation. Grass is vegetation. Grass is green. If it is grass outside your window, it is green."

You said:

You can't deduce or derive all knowledge simply from your understanding that existence exists.

Of course not, and it's ridiculous to suggest that I even implied it.

True statements are existing knowledge.

If you want to make something big out of this and parse every phrase, then go ahead. The point of my article was, purely and simply, that it might be possible to relate all true statements. I gave an example of of it that you gave me. It's a pure speculation. Come on, you're trying too hard ... and preaching to the converted. You're above this.

Sam


 





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