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Friday, October 26, 2007 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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This graphically demonstrates Rand’s dictum, “If you discern contradictions, examine your premises.” There is no such thing as a grey area with respect to truth and falsehood — you just haven’t examined the logic at a deep enough level. Grey areas are called grey areas because contradictions exist.
She surely objected to grey areas with underlying contradictions, but did allow for grey areas in another sense. She called them "borderline cases".


Post 1

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 2:38pmSanction this postReply
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Paul,

You make an interesting analogy between black and white pixels and true and false statements. You write,
Suppose we dispense with the Mandelbrot set for the time being. Imagine that we can represent a true statement, for instance, “existence exists,” by a black pixel and a false statement as a white pixel. Knowledge is inexhaustible — we will never be able to know everything about everything, thus there are an infinite number of true statements.
I would say "a potentially infinite number of true statements"; there is always at any time a finite number of true statements, because nothing, including propositional knowledge, is infinite.
As well, the world is infinitely complex, as was succinctly expressed by a programming guru: “Everything is deeply intertwingled.”
The world is highly complex, but not infinitely so.
Thus, all true statements can be linked to one another and they must be mutually supportive.
Could you give an example of what you mean by "mutually supportive"? How, for example, would the true statement, "Ayn Rand was a novelist" be supported by the true statement, "The grass outside my window is green."?
All true statements can be derived from “existence exists.”
You're saying that the proposition "existence exists" implies all true statements. To be sure, the proposition "existence exists" is consistent with all true statements, but I don't think you can derive all true statements from existence exists. Don't you have to verify that a statement is true empirically -- by direct observation?

You wrote,
This graphically demonstrates Rand’s dictum, “If you discern contradictions, examine your premises.” There is no such thing as a grey area with respect to truth and falsehood — you just haven’t examined the logic at a deep enough level. Grey areas are called grey areas because contradictions exist.
Merlin replied, "She surely objected to grey areas with underlying contradictions, but did allow for grey areas in another sense. She called them 'borderline cases'."

But there are no borderline cases between truth and falsehood. By the law of excluded middle, a meaningful proposition is either true false. Truth is "the correspondence of a proposition to the facts of reality." Either the proposition corresponds or it doesn't correspond; there is no third alternative. A person may not know whether or not it corresponds, but lack of knowledge about its correspondence has no bearing on the fact of its correspondence or lack thereof, which exists independently of one's knowledge.

In Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand (pp. 163-171), Peikoff talks about so-called "arbitrary" statements, which he says are neither true nor false, because they lack sufficient content enabling them to be cognitively processed -- to be related to the facts of reality. He gives the example of the following statement: "Your fate will be determined by your birth on the cusp of Capricorn and Aquarius." This statement, he says, is neither true nor false, because since there is no evidence to support it, there is no way of verifying or falsifying it. Accordingly, Peikoff states, "An arbitrary idea must be given the exact treatment its nature demands. One must treat it as though nothing had been said. The reason is that, cognitively speaking, nothing has been said."

In his refutation of agnosticism in the April 1963 issue of The Objectivist Newsletter, Nathaniel Branden makes a similar point about the arbitrary assertion of God's existence. He writes, "When a person makes an assertion for which no rational grounds are given, his statement is -- epistemologically -- without cognitive content. It is as though nothing had been said." So, the Objectivist position on statements such as God exists for which no evidence is provided is to treat them as arbitrary and therefore as neither true nor false.

I think this view is, well, false, because a statement for which no evidence is provided can still be a meaningful statement, and as such is either true or false, even if we don't know which it is and perhaps can never know. Take the statement, "There is life on Mars." If such a statement were asserted arbitrarily with no supporting evidence, would it follow that it is, therefore, neither true nor false? No, for either there is life on Mars or there isn't. If there is life on Mars, then the statement is true (even if we don't know it), and if there isn't life on Mars, then the statement is false (even if we don't know it). The presence or absence of Martian life exhausts the possibilities. A meaningful statement -- and the statement "There is life on Mars" is certainly meaningful -- is either true or false. There is no third alternative.

Of course, neither Peikoff nor Branden is saying that arbitrary statements are "grey" in Paul's sense of the term; they're saying that such statements lack meaning and cannot, therefore, be assessed as either true or false. But to say that, because a statement is arbitrary it lacks meaning is incorrect. Arbitrary statements can still be meaningful. In fact, to call something a "statement" implies that it's meaningful; otherwise, it wouldn't state anything. If it states something, then despite its arbitrariness, it is meaningful and is therefore either true or false. Moreover, to say that, because a statement lacks supporting evidence it cannot be assessed as true or false is not to say that it cannot be true or false. Even if one cannot determined whether or not a meaningful statement corresponds to reality, it either does or it doesn't. There is no third alternative.

- Bill

Post 2

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 3:49pmSanction this postReply
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William Dwyer wrote:
But there are no borderline cases between truth and falsehood. By the law of excluded middle, a meaningful proposition is either true false. Truth is "the correspondence of a proposition to the facts of reality." Either the proposition corresponds or it doesn't correspond; there is no third alternative. A person may not know whether or not it corresponds, but lack of knowledge about its correspondence has no bearing on the fact of its correspondence or lack thereof, which exists independently of one's knowledge.
I don't regard borderline cases to be outside the issue of true/false. In that context a statement can be neither true nor false, but indeterminate. Take the case that Ayn Rand addresses: "a certain primitive organism that biologists are unable to classify as either animals or plants"  (ITOE, 72). Is it an animal or not, true or false? It's a toss up. You may find some biologists that don't think it's a toss up, but what about those who do? I wouldn't call it "meaningless." True/false is a formal distinction. It can't always be applied so cleanly. At least that's my view.


Post 3

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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Bill:

I would say "a potentially infinite number of true statements."

Yes, That's a better wording.

The world is highly complex, but not infinitely so.

If there are potentially an infinite number of true statements then there are an infinite number of relationships connecting them. "True statements" is only one set of things that exist ion the world.

Could you give an example of what you mean by "mutually supportive"? How, for example, would the true statement, "Ayn Rand was a novelist" be supported by the true statement, "The grass outside my window is green."?

Firstly, to the extent that true statements cannot contradict each other — by definition, they are supportive. If you want to change the word "supportive" to "related" or "linked" I have no objection. My proposition, although I can't prove it, is that all truths are ultimately related by some sequence of reasoning. Ayn Rand was a novelist. Novelists write books. Books are printed on paper. Paper can be made from vegetation. Grass is vegetation. Grass is green. If it is grass outside your window, it is green.

... but I don't think you can derive all true statements from existence exists.
 
I'm not able to "prove" anything that I've speculated about but if you can concede that a means might be discovered to relate all true statements then there can  be a hierarchy and, as I don't know any statement that is more elementary than "existence exists", that would be the target. If they are related in a hierarchical fashion then the lower ones can presumably be derived. I just showed how to relate disparate statements, above, but I can't prove that it can be done for every pair of true statements.

Don't you have to verify that a statement is true empirically -- by direct observation?

Well, I suppose the statement would confirm the direct observation.

The article's scope is to provide what, to me, is a useful tool in looking at the the complexities of "truth" and of arguments. We've had plenty of discussions recently where a statement is made, then a refutation challenging part of the allegation and bringing in another complexity, then a further, detailed refutation of the former, and on and on. I liken this to pixels at the border of the "truth" set where more and more magnification is performed. At each level there are some true statements, and some false. The process could continue indefinitely, particularly if new knowledge is discovered.

Sam (Paul)

(Edited by Sam Erica on 10/26, 6:57pm)


Post 4

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 6:45pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "... but I don't think you can derive all true statements from existence exists."

Paul, you replied,
I'm not able to "prove" anything that I've speculated about but if you can concede that a means might be discovered to relate all true statements then there can be a hierarchy and, as I don't know any statement that is more elementary than "existence exists", that would be the target. If they are related in a hierarchical fashion then the lower ones can presumably be derived.
See, I don't think they can. I'd have to say that deriving everything from "existence exists" is a form of rationalism. Accordingly, I wrote, "Don't you have to verify that a statement is true empirically -- by direct observation?"

You replied,
Well, I suppose the statement would confirm the direct observation.
I would say it's just the opposite: The direct observation confirms the statement, which is why I say that you can't derive all knowledge from the proposition that "existence exists," but must arrive at your knowledge by applying reason to the evidence of the senses.

- Bill

Post 5

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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See my edited comments

 ...   but must arrive at your knowledge by applying reason to the evidence of the senses.

Knowledge is gained directly from the senses without the intervention of reason. If my butt hurts, I know it.

If you don't want to accept my proposition that all knowledge can be derived from "Existence exists" then prove it. I'm not going to get involved in a long, time consuming discussion on what I thought was just an article on my ruminations.

Sam


(Edited by Sam Erica on 10/26, 7:11pm)


Post 6

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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Sam (or Paul),

I thought we were talking about propositional knowledge. Only propositions can be true or false.

- Bill

Post 7

Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 2:31amSanction this postReply
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Bill:

My comment about my knowledge about my butt hurting wasn't meant to be serious. My butt hurting isn't knowledge, per se.

But my point about all true statements being linked to "Existence exists" can't be dismissed out of hand.  Here are a series of linked, true statements:

Existence exists.
"Existence exists" can only be known to be true by a conscious entity.
A conscious entity can process its senses.
The source of all knowledge is by means of the senses.
Man can make the connection between the cause of his sensations and the effect by his faculty of reason. (Such as concluding that the reason for the pain is sitting on the pin.)
The process of reasoning can be inductive or deductive.
Inductive reasoning can result in inventions.
(and so on ... so that all inventions can be linked here. "A is A" can surely accommodated somewhere, but don't ask me where.)

I'm not going to quibble about details but I think I've made my point.

Sam


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Post 8

Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 3:26pmSanction this postReply
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This looks a lot like what Spinoza and Leibniz were saying some 300 years ago - that all truths are necessary and logically deducible if we only knew enough to see how.  This is what "rationalist" originally meant before it became Objectivist jargon for Objectivists one disagrees with.
(Edited by Peter Reidy on 10/28, 11:23am)


Post 9

Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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In Post 5, Sam wrote,
If you don't want to accept my proposition that all knowledge can be derived from "Existence exists" then prove it. I'm not going to get involved in a long, time consuming discussion on what I thought was just an article on my ruminations.
Well, if you knew existence exists, could you then deduce the laws of physics, the number of people on earth or the color of my hair? Or would you have to go out and actually acquire that knowledge by observing the relevant facts? You see, I think you're going about this the wrong way. You can't deduce or derive all knowledge simply from your understanding that existence exists. You have to acquire your knowledge empirically by identifying and integrating the evidence of your senses, which is the view that Objectivism espouses.

- Bill

Post 10

Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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Bill:

I said:

"My proposition, although I can't prove it, is that all truths are ultimately related by some sequence of reasoning. Ayn Rand was a novelist. Novelists write books. Books are printed on paper. Paper can be made from vegetation. Grass is vegetation. Grass is green. If it is grass outside your window, it is green."

You said:

You can't deduce or derive all knowledge simply from your understanding that existence exists.

Of course not, and it's ridiculous to suggest that I even implied it.

True statements are existing knowledge.

If you want to make something big out of this and parse every phrase, then go ahead. The point of my article was, purely and simply, that it might be possible to relate all true statements. I gave an example of of it that you gave me. It's a pure speculation. Come on, you're trying too hard ... and preaching to the converted. You're above this.

Sam


 



Post 11

Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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Here's a review of my article by someone who completely understands what I have been trying to convey. He is able to put it in the context of mathematical philosophy and history, of which, alas, I'm virtually ignorant. As Clint Eastwood says, "A man's gotta know his limitations."

Paul:

I love your essay: it combines recent computer and complexity theory to create a new mental model of how to visualize the long-standing mathematicians' dream of creating a firm logical foundation for the entire edifice of mathematics. The hope was that with the correct set of axioms, all mathematical truths could be demonstrated to stand on a rigorous and entirely logical foundation, thus creating a single magnificent and coherent structure that is a creation of the human mind and that in no way depends upon the physical world for its existence.

This was the motivation behind Russell & Whitehead's 3 volume opus, Principia Mathematica. The trouble is that they had barely got this monster written when Kurt Godel presented his proof that any sufficiently complex (useful & interesting) system of logical statements will contain true statements that cannot be proven from the system's axioms. Or to put it another way: no consistent system of primitive recursive arithmetic can, within itself, determine that every proposition that can be formulated within the system is decidable, i.e. can decide whether every proposition and its negation is provable within the system. This was a devastating blow to any attempt to create the structure that had motivated the Principia. I can't begin to imagine how it must have felt to have worked so hard to try to build such a structure, only to have a third party demonstrate that the entire opus was utterly doomed from the start! Russell maintained that the effort required to write the Principia was to great that his brain never fully recovered its intellectual powers.

My view is that their monumental project just took far too long and he was therefore really looking at the problems of an aging brain. I'm having this problem myself, in my own small way, and feel I'm in a desperate race to complete my work before I lose both the intellectual power and the energy required to do so.

A recent book by the mathematician Gregory Chaitin, "Meta Math: the Search for Omega" makes the interesting observation that (a) mathematics was, until the advent of the computer, treated (of necessity) as an entirely logical and philosophical enterprise concerned, at its foundation, with axioms and their inevitable and logically deduced theorems; but (b) since then, however, an entirely new branch of mathematics has evolved that uses the computer as an experimental tool. This new class of mathematical inquiry has a surprising aspect in common with the sciences, namely experimentation.

My artwork is a very visual example o this new paradigm - as, of course, is the Mandelbrot Set. Mathematica's Stephen Wolfram wrote a book a few years back (a monster) "A New Kind of Science" that is all about experimental computational mathematics. He thinks he invented it all and thus his self-published vanity press book and his egomaniacal attitude (he gives no one else any real credit) have deeply offended the extraordinarily many people who have preceded him in thinking along these lines. Despite his being seen by his colleagues as an offensive prick, the book is interesting. But the 'artwork' he raves on about and with which his book is filled, is pretty deadly dull stuff. This chap should really have left the keyboard a few times and perhaps gone to an art gallery or two! Since he's filthy rich, from his ingenious and much admired software package, Mathematica, he doesn't really need to care what others think of him. Chatin, however, seemed to find much to admire in Wolfram's book.

Your idea, in its delightful new suit of fractal clothing, sounds to me, at first blush, like an ingenious revisiting of Russell & Whitehead's ambitious program to demonstrate that all of mathematics is a coherent and unified structure. Godel has demonstrated that the world of mathematics and logic cannot be structured that way. Godel, if I remember correctly, once tried to use his new methods of theorem proving to demonstrate that there must be a god, or at least higher levels of nested intelligence. I seem to recall that other mathematicians who were conversant with his methods were unable to convince themselves his proof worked. Godel's new ideas about how to use numbers and number theory to reason about entirely different concepts were, I believe, partly inspired by some of Cantor's ingenious proofs in set theory and in particular by the way he demonstrated that infinity was not a single concept. Cantors work also helped inspire Mandelbrot and thus, in turn, it underlies my artwork.

It is possible however, that your approach does not have the Principia's flaw of expecting that at any given level all statements can be deduced from the axioms supporting  the structure at that level. Mathematics, as it now appears to stand, is a recursively layered structure in which the only way to prove the truth or falsehood of all true statements in any given system A is to create a higher or meta system A', using additional axioms, from which to look down on the incomplete system A and thereby acquire the power to prove the truth or falsehood of all statements in system A from A'. Clearly this implies an open ended system of systems. Perhaps, therefore, it can be reconciled with your approach? Your approach would then, to my mind, be a very fitting visual metaphor with which to view the endlessly intertwined, ever expanding, open ended system of systems of axioms and theorems that constitute mathematics.

Perhaps you might contact the math department at a local university - someone with the right mathematical bent might take a serious professional  interest. The problem is finding the right player: math is a such vast domain of specializations in which many players won't have the philosophical interests required to make good use of your idea.

Ken



Post 12

Friday, August 29, 2008 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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Sam,

Have you read ItOE? If so, do you agree with it? If not, where do you disagree?

Bill

Post 13

Friday, August 29, 2008 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
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Yes, I have read it. Perhaps you could identify what you might regard as a conflict so that I might address it.

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Post 14

Friday, August 29, 2008 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
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Sam Erica wrote:
He is able to put it in the context of mathematical philosophy and history, of which, alas, I'm virtually ignorant.
I wrote an article on philosophy of mathematics many years ago, which is here.
 
There is a much shorter Wikipedia article that gives an overview here.



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Friday, August 29, 2008 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
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Merlin:

Thank you. there is much here for me to master.

Sam


Post 16

Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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Paul (Sam), this is a great article. I happen to think that it is essentially wrong, but wrong in a fruitful way. I agree with William (Bill) that it is a mistake to say that one can derive all try statements from existence exists. But I do think that the scope of potential knowledge, if it were possible to graph such a thing, might resemble a complex curve with an infinitely long edge.

Of course, the set of all true statements is something that Goedel liked to think he had a handle on - and he claimed that there were points which we could not determine to be black or white - not as a matter of precision, but as intrinsic to themselves. He was wrong, of course. Arbitrary self-referential statements have no existential import.

You have hit on a great analogy here. A beautiful analogy, but one from which we should be cautious in drawing conclusions.

Also, there were preliminary graphs drawn of the Julia set almost a century ago. The knowledge of such infinitely complex curves was obtained long before the advent of computer graphics. But, of course, their striking beauty would have lain hidden to most were it not for the computer. I wonder if some savants may not have seen these sets in their mind's eyes throughout the ages.

Post 17

Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:
I happen to think that it is essentially wrong, but wrong in a fruitful way. I agree with William (Bill) that it is a mistake to say that one can derive all try (sic) statements from existence exists.
Well, will you agree that existence exists is the basic truth and that there is no truth that exists at a level higher than this? If you will also agree that there is a hierarchy of truths, how is the hierarchy related? A hierarchy assumes a dependence on the more important elements.

I think that you are viewing this analogy in a restrictive sense. While true statements can be connected, albeit by long tendrils, false statements can exist within the body of true statements — witness the following real, concrete, example.

Newton's discoveries can be represented as a single, black (true) pixel in the Mandelbrot analogy. Upon magnification, a number of pixels appear — those associated with his three laws of motion, gravitation, etc. because they are linked, true statements. Other links spread out to statements about equations, methods of observation, and on and on. But let's look at gravitation. In further detail there's his equation relating the universal gravitational constant, the masses of two interacting bodies and the force. There are implicit statements also. If you would have asked Newton if the mass of the falling apple remained constant during its acceleration he would have been forced to say, "Yes" because if he said, "No" he would have been forced to explain which, of course, he couldn't have. Upon further magnification, signifying that more knowledge has been gained, that statement becomes false (white). So, within any current level of knowledge there can exist embedded falsehoods, hidden until we can become wiser.

Btw, I have never stated that I believe that this is literally true, as a complete and sufficient analogy to explain the whole subject — I have said that I prefer to view the subject in this manner. If it adds something to someone else's view then I will be gratified. I was offended that Bill attacked the article as something that was inimical to the very basis of Objectivism.

Sam




Post 18

Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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No, there is a hierarchy of abstraction - but not one of truth. I think you and I might come to an understanding over a few beers. I view the structure of abstraction metaphorically as a fisherman's net. The rim is "contact with reality. The netting is the web of abstractions, with abstractions from perceptions being the ones which connect to the rim. The axiomatic concepts lie in the middle of the net. As one's number of abstractions grows, the volume of the net becomes larger. As one forms more intermediate abstractions, the holes in the net get smaller. But I fear that this forum will be too slow and open to ambiguity to allow us to come to a quick understanding. Let me read the sympathetic review you posted before I comment further.

Inimical to objectivism? I don't see you intentionally trying to upset the apple cart. Again, this forum is too slow for discussing such ideas. I think the principle of rhetorical generosity suggests we try to understand the value in new ideas before we start burning heretics.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/16, 4:09pm)


Post 19

Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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Ted:

I can understand your mesh analogy to some degree and think that it also could be a valid way of visualizing the relationships.

Sam


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