About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 60

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Our foreign policy has elicited the violent nature of some muslims"

He needs to clarify in full what he means by that.


I doubt any kind of clarification would make that premise correct. The violent nature of some Muslims existed far before the existence of the United States. Their xenophobic irrationality doesn't require US foreign policy for it to be realized into action. One small example of this is the Danish cartoon incident that lead to mass rioting among Muslim populations. In effect, just exercising one's right to free speech elicited a violent response from many Muslims. I doubt US foreign policy made one damn bit of difference in that. They are offended by our culture, our values have seeped into theirs, values such as plurality, equal rights for women, tolerance for other religions, this is unbearable to many Muslims. Combine that with their awful governments that try to deflect blame from their own failed institutions by blaming any convenient scapegoat they can find, be it the Jews, the United States, or just the West in general. To place the blame on US foreign policy sorely fails to understand Middle Eastern geopolitics and Islamo-fascism. In effect, it may be a lack of foreign policy action, not inaction as Ron Paul would try to lead us to believe, that is responsible for this higher degree of violent response from them.

The solutions by many supporters of Ron Paul is to go after "al-Qaeda". This is akin to saying, well the problem with mafia crime is the Gambino family, we must declare war not on mafiosos in general, just on the Gambino family. It is concrete bound, failing to understand our existential foes have many allies with common interests. It also fails to come up with a real strategy to end Islamo-fascism for good, which a good start is eradicating the totalitarian shit-hole governments in the Middle East that breed Islamo-fascism. Objectivists talk a lot about declaring war on Islam, well now that's too abstract and not specific enough. That would be like saying we need to declare war on Italians to get rid of mafiosos. The war is on Islamo-fascism, and how about a concrete action that tries to win such a war? Which would be eradicating the governments that prevent pluralism in the Middle East, the governments that offer no hope for a cultural change in the Middle East, that is the governments that keep the Middle East a breeding ground for terrorists and thugs.

Post 61

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 12:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
If Paul is nominated I will vote for him, if not, I'll vote Libertarian or just stay home. Honestly, the war on terror is at the very bottom of my list as far as issues.

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 62

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Gigi and Eric,

I appreciate how both have you have been willing to reconsider your views of Ron Paul's position.  Even if that just means taking a closer look at what he says, that shows a lot of character.  And I fully understand the idea of reading your own positions or hopes into his words.  I was just having an email exchange a couple weeks ago about people reading the best interpretation into a vague or contradictory post.  When you're looking for good ideas, and someone says something that may be interpreted in a positive light, it's attractive to do so.

Eric, instead of:
 "Muslims are innocent in all this.  It was all our fault, you see?  They had every right to come over and attack us.  911 was okay.  I'm actually happy about it!"

How about?

"Muslims have been victims of our meddling for so long, it shouldn't surprise us that they would react to our policies this way.  While the attack may not be justified, it was only natural and should have been expected.  I'm sad that it happened, but at least it can act as a wake-up call to our misdeeds.  Hopefully now we can see the folly of our interventionist policies, as I have been warning about for years."


Post 63

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Muslims have been victims of our meddling for so long, it shouldn't surprise us that they would react to our policies this way.  While the attack may not be justified, it was only natural and should have been expected.  I'm sad that it happened, but at least it can act as a wake-up call to our misdeeds.  Hopefully now we can see the folly of our interventionist policies, as I have been warning about for years."

Your proposed translation is certainly closer to Ron Paul's meaning than the one that has him sanctioning the attack and declaring it "okay."  This translation may be accurate.  If so, it gives me a chill much the way I felt when I read post #39 of this thread.  Both assume that we must accept brutality as a given in human nature and be sure to always either tip-toe around it, or build up our muscles so we can retaliate in kind. Both see barbarism as something to be expected and a condition that should dictate our actions.  If it turned out that your proposed translation were actually Ron Paul's words, that would be the clincher for me.  Giuliani would start looking real good!


Post 64

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 9:45pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It wasn't Ron Paul's words.  I was just wondering if I could say pretty much the same thing you did, but with enough confusion to make it sound acceptable.  For instance, I didn't say the muslims were innocent, but I did call them victims.  I didn't say it was our fault, but I did say the were reacting to our policies.   And while saying it wasn't justified, I went ahead and said it was "natural" and "expected", which is close enough.  And while I said "I'm sad that it happened", I went on to talk about how it was really a good thing.  While your example sounded like a straw-man, I think mine sounded a little too familiar.


Post 65

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 10:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe,

You're right that my mis-translation was a straw-man.  What can I say? Sometimes I get carried away.

It might be helpful to find some of Ron Paul's own words to determine his meaning.  This piece has enough content and substance to it that there are probably some statements in it that could be revealing:

The Blame Game


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 66

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Then there was the communist Khmer Rouge takeover of Cambodia in April 1975 after the United States stopped all aid to its defending Lon Nol regime. Result: about 2,000,000 murdered (for one Cambodian’s story, see ”The Karma of the Killing Fields,”, and for another, see ”A Birthday wrapped in Cambodian History”).

R. J. Rummel - The Blood of Millions on Their Hands
http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2005/04/blood-of-millions-on-their-hands.html

We are all familiar with the number of US casualties in the Vietnam war but lost in the annals of revisionist history is the fact that more people of South Vietnam were killed by the communist North Vietnamese in the six months following the US withdrawal then in the entire ten year conflict.

Mike Dickey - The Cost of Bias
http://www.matus1976.com/politics/costofbias.htm

After the Communist Party finished imparting their brutal oppression on the people of Vietnam, and with the west willfully silent, they moved onto Cambodia and Laos, killing 1.5 million people.  They then focused their weapons and chains solely on Cambodia, bringing to power the perpetrators of the worst democide the world has ever seen, where 2-3 million Cambodians were murdered.  A democide the world had cried "never again" at yet completely ignored, ignored again in Rwanda, and is ignoring again today in the Sudan.  

Mike Dickey - 30 Years After the Fall of Saigon
http://www.thienlybuutoa.org/Misc/30YearsAfterFallOfSaigon.htm

Mr. Speaker, I rise in strong opposition to this ill-conceived, counter-productive legislation. This represents exactly the kind of unconstitutional interventionism the Founding Fathers warned us about. It is arrogant and dangerous for us to believe that we can go around the world inserting ourselves into civil wars that have nothing to do with us without having to face the unintended consequences that always arise.

Ron Paul - Stay Out of Sudan's Civil War
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul219.html


Everyone is talking about the downside of us leaving, and the civil war that might erupt.  Possibly so, but no one knows with certainty what will happen.  There was no downside when we left Vietnam.  But one thing for sure, after a painful decade of killing in the 1960s, the killing stopped and no more Americans died once we left.  We now trade with Vietnam and enjoy friendly relations with them.  This was achieved through peaceful means, not military force.

Ron Paul - The Blame Game

 
_________________________________________________________________________


I suppose there are people who can sleep like babies while dealing with murderers.  Paul appears to be one of them.   

I'm through with this guy.



Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 67

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa,

Do you believe that the U.S. military has a moral obligation to defend the innocent victims of brutal oppression in other parts of the world?

- Bill

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 68

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill if I could rephrase your question:

Considering that the source of all the world's problems come from totalitarian governments, including ever more cheaper and technologically easier to acquire weapons of mass destruction combined with fewer individuals needed to carry out a massive attack, and the ever more increasing global economy of international mass transit coupled with the potential for dangerous contagions, and the potential for alliances of evil regimes with common interests to combat the West in order to deflect attention away from their own failed institutions, do we have a moral obligation to defend our own interests by eradicating these regimes, to which an ancillary effect is the defense of innocent victims of brutal oppression around the world?

I would answer, yes.

But more importantly, if an assault on human freedom to one individual is not worthy of defense, why defend anyone's rights? If one doesn't aid his neighbor to defend his rights, why should that person ever expect his neighbor to come to aid in his defense should the time arise? Why is it worthwhile for the police to arrest your neighbor who assaulted you, when that neighbor posed no immediate short term threat to the police? If we value rights, then we must value trading self-defense with one another. An alliance is far more effective in protecting rights than a single entity left to fend for himself.

"We must all hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately" -Benjamin Franklin

Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Post 69

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
One place where Ron Paul goes astray is thinking that 9/11 and similar terrorist acts are responses to US meddling in the Middle East.  They are not.  Radical Islamists have had the religiously supported goal to punish the West for its infidelities, for its materialism, its refusal to accept the Muslem faith, etc.  The best book on this is Islamic Imperialism, by Efraim Karsh (Yale, 2006). No doubt, for some in the Middle East U. S. presence in Soudi Arabia and elsewhere has served to fuel the hostilities toward the West. But it was never the decisive reason behind those hostilities. The same with Israel. It is but a symptom of the larger affront against Islam and the hoped for Arab empire. Of course, a full account of all this would involved innumerable contributory factors, a great deal of complex history, etc.  No doubt, the foreign policy makers in the US Department of State, including their supporters among the citizens of the United States, have their share of responsibility.  As with most human affairs, while there can be clean enough principles, the actual conduct of the people involved tends to be various levels of right and wrong conduct, sometimes involving the same people, the same political leaders, even the very same citizens at the very same time. The problem I see with Dr. Paul is that he is willing to attempt to render the complexities into sound bites and bad ones at that. I am for a general, default position of defensive foreign policy--I oppose the US running about the world rectifying all wrongs, even when they really are wrongs (the government of a free country is supposed to protect the rights of the citizenry, not remake the world). And given the choices American voters are likely to face in November 2008, Ron Paul's position more closely reflects the sensible, defensivist foreign policy that George Washington and other sensible founders suggested.  But that's not the same as saying that Dr. Paul has been saying the best things about this topic.
(Edited by Machan on 11/25, 2:25pm)


Post 70

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What John said (so very well, too.)
 


Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Post 71

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 3:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This is a very big mission.  I'm concerned about the cost of this moral obligation.  Would you still support it if it meant that taxes needed to be doubled in order to pay for it?  And if we need more soldiers, would you be willing to institute a draft?  And what about people who protest this war by refusing to pay their taxes?  Are you willing to punish them by putting them in jail?  And in terms of the legitimate fear you have about suitcase bombs, how much privacy should we tolerate?  Shouldn't we be on the safe side and make everyone vulnerable to search and seizure at any time for any reason?  In facing a draft situation, what do you do about the young people who don't want to make the sacrifice?  Do they go to jail with the tax evaders and war protesters?  How do we afford to build all these extra jails?

I guess I'm wondering how much tyranny you will accept here in order to accomplish the goal of eliminating it everywhere else. 


Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Post 72

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 3:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Eric no tyranny needed. Resources of course are limited, which is why one should deal the best blow one can against the worst enemy that is out there. Defending one's interests does not necessarily mean one must sacrifice liberty to do so. An alliance of freedom loving nations would be unstoppable. The combined resources of such an alliance would permanently eradicate totalitarianism but that would require a willingness to do so. No such willingness is there right now (or at least half-heartedly through alliances such as NATO) And alliances such as the UN are a complete joke as they include totalitarian nations.

As far as taking more draconian approaches to preventing a suit case nuke going off such as eliminating the 4th amendment, it would be far more desirable to eliminate the source of the desire or ability for terrorists to take such an action to begin with as opposed to giving up on liberty all together. Eliminating the source of our problems, totalitarian governments, is better than eliminating the very things that we value to which we wish to defend.
(Edited by John Armaos on 11/25, 4:07pm)


Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Post 73

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John,

Hmm.  Alliances.  As you said, there doesn't seem to be a willingness among many Freedom-Loving Nations at this point. How's about another plan that has proven sort of successful in the past:   We can form alliances with Not-Quite-Freedom-Loving Nations and a few semi-brutal dictatorships and small groups of terrorist, er, I mean, "freedom fighters."  You know the old saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."  As long as they'll assist us in our moral obligation to rid the world of totalitarianism, we shouldn't be too persnickety about who's willing to help us out.  We can fund them and arm them and.....

Are you sure about this moral obligation thing?


Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 74

Monday, November 26, 2007 - 12:11amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It might be worth noting Rand's comments on foreign policy, which she made in her Ford Hall Forum speech, "The Wreckage of the Consensus," on April 16, 1967, which was subsequently reprinted in the paperback edition of Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. She states:
[T]here is no proper solution for the war in Vietnam: It is a war we should never have entered. To continue it is senseless--to withdraw from it, would be one more act of appeasement on our long, shameful record. The ultimate result of appeasement is a world war, as demonstrated by World War II; in today's context, it may mean a nuclear world war.

That we let ourselves be trapped into a situation of that kind, is the consequence of fifty years of a suicidal foreign policy. One cannot correct a consequence without correcting its cause; if such disasters could be solved "pragmatically," i.e., out of context, on the spur and range of the moment, a nation would not need any foreign policy. And this is an example of why we do need a policy based on long-range principles, i.e., an ideology. But a revision of our foreign policy, from its basic premises on up, is what today's anti-ideologists dare not contemplate. The worse its results, the louder our public leaders proclaim that our foreign policy is bipartisan.

A proper solution would be to elect statesmen -- if such appeared -- with a radically different foreign policy, a policy explicitly and proudly dedicated to the defense of America's rights and national self-interests, repudiating foreign aid and all forms of international self-immolation. On such a policy, we could withdraw from Vietnam at once -- and the withdrawal would not be misunderstood by anyone, and the world would have a chance to achieve peace. But such statesmen do not exist at present. In today's conditions, the only alternative is to fight that war and win it as fast as possible -- and thus gain time to develop new statesmen with a new foreign policy, before the old one pushes us into another "cold war," just as the "cold war" in Korea pushed us into Vietnam.
(p. 226)
We lost 50,000 American lives in the Vietnam War, due at least in part to the military draft. As Rand observed, "Not many men would volunteer for such wars as Korea or Vietnam. Without the power to draft, the makers of our foreign policy would not be able to embark on adventures of that kind. " (p. 228)

As for World Wars I and II, Rand had this to say:
Just as [Woodrow] Wilson, a "liberal" reformer, led the United States into World War I, "to make the world safe for democracy" -- so Franklin D. Roosevelt, another "liberal" reformer, let it into World War II, in the name of the "Four Freedoms." In both cases, the "conservatives" -- and the big-business interests -- were overwhelmingly opposed to war, but were silenced. In the case of World War II, they were smeared as "isolationists," "reactionaries" and "America-First'ers."

World War I led, not to "democracy," but to the creation of three dictatorships; Soviet Russia, Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, World War II led, not to "Four Freedoms," but to the surrender of one-third of the world's population into communist slavery."
("The Roots of War," The Objectivist, p. 86)
- Bill


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 75

Monday, November 26, 2007 - 2:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm aware of those writings, and I vehemently disagree with her.

We lost 50,000 American lives in the Vietnam War, due at least in part to the military draft.


Does the loss of life, or the draft, mean that you must therefore declare a war against communist aggression as immoral? We forcibly pay taxes to fund the police and courts, when they lock up a murderer in a prison does it forfeit a moral argument that a good deed was done?


Withdrawing from Vietnam made us into the paper tiger, a laughing stock around the world that emboldened our enemies to increase their aggression. Afghanistan was invaded by the Soviets, in part due to their new found encouragement that their aggression would no longer be challenged. Ending WW2 too early by letting the Soviets go was a mistake (Churchill foresaw this and warned the West to take action early and immediately after German capitulation), WW1 did not sufficiently finish the job (that of German capitulation), all of these only prove the short-sightedness of a lack of willingness to finish a war, not proof one should isolate themselves from foreign aggression.

Rand's own stance on what US foreign policy should be was contradictory. While advocating the United States aid and defend Israel and Taiwan, she advocated we abandon allies such as Great Britain and South Vietnam. Take her views on history and foreign policy knowing that inconsistency. She wrote:

"The first intended victim of the new isolationism will probably be Israel—if the ‘antiwar’ efforts of the new isolationists succeed. (Israel and Taiwan are the two countries that need and deserve U.S. help—not in the name of international altruism, but by reason of actual U.S. national interests in the Mediterranean and the Pacific.)”

Rand - “The Lessons of Vietnam”

Post 76

Monday, November 26, 2007 - 2:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Eric:

Are you sure about this moral obligation thing?


Um, to defend our own interests? Uh yeah. If not then what is a moral obligation?

Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Post 77

Monday, November 26, 2007 - 7:29amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John, I agree with you that Rand's foreign-policy views were unclear. They seemed to evolve over time, from an arguably isolationist position in the early half of the twentieth century, to a more assertive, global view of America's national-defense interests later on. Your quotation of her views about the importance of our defending Israel and Taiwan, as strategic geopolitical allies, is a perfect example of her later (I would say "mature") position.

The relentless advance of communication, transportation, satellite, and weapons technology has simply obliterated the geographic "isolationism" possible at the time of America's founding. When a plot hatched in remote mountains in a backwater nation like Afghanistan, with conspirators drawn from places like Saudi Arabia, can bring down iconic buildings in New York and Washington, DC -- when Chinese rockets can "blind" in outer space the U.S. intelligence satellites that we depend on for our nation's defense -- when Iranian rockets and subs can threaten to shut down international shipping lanes, thereby interfering with free trade -- when Islamist terrorists and despots can shut down at whim international traffic in a commodity as basic as oil -- etc., etc. -- it is no longer possible to pretend we can draw any meaningful national-defense line at the water's edge. Those days are long gone.

National defense today requires the ability and willingness to project credible power globally, in direct protection of the kind of trade, travel, communications, and contact among peoples that Ron Paul and other libertarians declare to be the essential pillars of international relations.

Without the forward projection of U.S. military power -- through foreign bases (meaning: alliances), naval-carrier battle groups, special ops forces, advanced military aircraft, and first-rate intelligence agencies (which means an effective CIA, NSA, etc.) -- that "foreign trade and travel" model of foreign policy promoted by Mr. Paul and many libertarians would be revealed as the poor fantasy it is.


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 78

Monday, November 26, 2007 - 8:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Re post 66, Teresa Thanks for quoting my essays.



There was no downside when we left Vietnam
Ron Paul from "The Blame Game"


Any semblance of respect I had for Ron Paul for his Libertarian positions (despise his foriegn policy positions) is now completely erradicated after reading this.

disgusting.

Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Post 79

Monday, November 26, 2007 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael D,

I agree. That outrageous line in Ron Paul's essay had me seeing red (literally), as I thought of the slavery and bloodshed that the communist takeover brought to millions of South Vietnamese, and the disastrous consequences that our ignominious defeat at the hands of a third-rate dictatorship brought to U.S. military credibility and to our reputation as a reliable ally.

Add to that Paul's infuriating use of the word "empire" to describe U.S. foreign policy -- which, contrary to all objective facts, only affirms the charges raised against America by communists and Islamists -- and also his overt hostility, at the end of the article, to "war" as such, which (regardless of his protestations) can only translate into a de facto pacifism and isolationism.

My conclusion: This guy is a complete moron when it comes to how to defend U.S. interests and the individual rights of Americans. As his positions on abortion and immigration further make clear, he doesn't even grasp what individual rights are all about: His is the traditional, intrinsicist, "natural rights" interpretation (in his case, stemming from religious platonism). As a result of this view of rights, like too many other libertarians, he tacitly equates any anti-government positions with pro-individual-liberty positions, as if they are one in the same. But they aren't.

In "The Anatomy of Compromise," Rand wrote: "When opposite basic principles are clearly and openly defined, it works to the advantage of the rational side; when they are not clearly defined, but are hidden or evaded, it works to the advantage of the irrational side."

Ron Paul's public equation of such vital principles as "individual rights," "liberty," "the gold standard," and "free markets" with intellectual trash-talk about American imperialism, anti-immigration, anti-abortion-rights, and de facto pacifism only confuses and discredits those principles in the minds of millions. That confusion -- if unchallenged -- will set back the cause of reason, individualism, and capitalism for decades to come.



Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.