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Friday, July 4, 2008 - 6:35pmSanction this postReply
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Marriage & Social Arguments

I'd like to hear a positive argument in favor of the legal recognition of gay marriage, assuming that is what you advocate. I personally find the idea absurd. I do believe that people should have the right to designate their own next of kin. This is, however, closer to the Roman idea of adoption than marriage. Private religious observances have nothing to do with the state. The only possible reason I see for the legal regulation of marriage is for the protection of children and caretaker parents who forgo market jobs in order to be homekeepers. This provides a scenario for regulating divorce, alimony, child support and the recognition of common-law marriage. These are matters of controversy among libertarians. Expanding these notions to cover relationships that do not naturally produce children seems ipso facto more controversial.

I do agree that suppressing homosexuality is a frightful matter. Repressed sexuality and the repression of sex seem to be issues in so far as the phenomenon of suicide bombers and many other violent sociopathic phenomena, not to mention the behavior of Christian preacher hypocrites. Look at John Walker Lindh, and the last will and testament of Mohammed Atta. But I find the argument that stabilizing homosexual relationships is socially desirable a strange one from an egoist perspective. Rand certainly didn't look at sexual relationships as needing justification as social stabilizers. I suppose one can make the argument, but from Objectivist principles? Your having a wife and a job might be analyzable as a product of the "invisible hand" but would you take pride in them as contributing to the common good? Should homosexuals?



(Edited by Ted Keer on 7/04, 7:48pm)


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Post 1

Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 2:27amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

You said,
I'd like to hear a positive argument in favor of the legal recognition of gay marriage...
You will NOT get one from me.  I think the only reasonable position is to get government out of the marriage business altogether.  Contracts can handle anything having to do with things like heirs, divorce arrangements, etc.  Adoption and child support are civil issues that work just fine with or without marriage.  Government has no business in any marriage - gay or straight.  Justice calls for an end to discriminatory laws but better to get the state out of the marriage business than to make new a bunch of new laws. 

You used the phrase "private religious observances" - I'd change that to "private social observances" so that athiests can have friends and family join with them to observe their formalizing of a romantic commitment.  If people want to pluck anything of value out of the "tradition" of marriage, it should be the formalized observance of a commitment to their romantic relationship that is done in front of friends and family (and church/god/whatever for those who are religious).

Kids can and should be adoptable by couples without regard to their straightness or gayness - since those aren't critera by which good child care is judged.  For that reason the language in existing laws regarding child care and adoption might need cleaning up, but adding new laws for gay couples just institutionalizes a difference that didn't need noticing in these areas to begin with.

I applaud Mr. Stolyarov for his energetic advocacy but I would not have gone into "socially desirable goals" - not only is strange from an egoist perpspective but it distracts and weakens the heart of the argument - which is the state versus the individual.  And his expressed purpose IS advocacy so he wants stay with the most powerful argument.  Even the religious origins of this particular bigotry relate to the state versus the individual in a country that calls for the separation of church and state.  My manta would be "The state has no right...", not "It would be nicer for society if..."


Post 2

Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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I stick by the term "private religious observances." Religion is the ritual celebration of transcendent values. Religion need be neither theist nor revelation- nor faith-based.

To narrow the term religion to exclude atheists is not to safeguard atheism but to limit the atheist.

Roark was a "religious" man. A wedding is a religious act, even if pared down to the spoken and witnessed oath "do you take this man?" Ceremony is a form of art, the recreation - celebration - in perceptible form of transcendent landmarks in a human life. "Social observance" has all the higher spiritual connotations of a sports bar.

Post 3

Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, I stand corrected... mostly. 

Your remarks on religion were well crafted, correct, and of value - but most common usage of this word "religion" is still found in bed with faith-based beliefs.  And that's my problem with the word.

I've never been as concerned with the particular beliefs (like virgin births, or walking on water, or there's a God above).  My passionate objection is to the epistemological notion that faith can lead to truth. 

Foolish beliefs will wither away when brought under reason's light - but first we have to kill this concept of sacred scriptures - holy words - revealed truths (like what one might hear a burning bush say) and any other psychotic visions or 'revelations'. 

All that you or anyone else can do to purge this word of its association with the disease of faith will recieve my blessings - but until then it makes me cringe.




Post 4

Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Common usage is exactly what we must be brave enough to challenge. If we don't reclaim words, who will? If we won't name the battle, or if we let our opponents frame the question, we've lost before we've begun.

Don't be selfish, now!

(Edited by Ted Keer on 7/05, 8:02pm)


Post 5

Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Stolyarov,

I want to commend you for your ability and willingness to rationally reconsider your prior positions on issues. I believe that in this instance, you have arrived at a point that is more tolerant, thoughtful and mature. As a gay man, I know first-hand the kind of psychic damage that can be done through condemnation and repression, and your conclusion (that acceptance of homosexuality is a healthier approach) is unquestionably correct.

I also agree with you in urging those on the right to accept that heterosexuals should not insist on holding a monopoly on the term “marriage.” But whether married people, be they gay or straight, should hold any special rights is another matter. Rather than bestowing special rights upon married people, the ultimate goal should be to get government out of the marriage business altogether. While this seems like an impossibility, I offered a possible approach here:
http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Eric/Something_Old,_Something_New.shtml

I’d be happy to hear your thoughts on this.

Eric


Post 6

Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 11:03pmSanction this postReply
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Ted; Mr. Wolfer; Mr. Rockwell;

 

Thank you for your comments.


Several remarks:

1) I do not disagree with the desirability of government getting out of marriage altogether. My article simply argued that the law should treat homosexual marriages in a manner no different from the way in which it treats heterosexual marriages. If that implies no treatment at all, then so be it. My argument for this kind of equal treatment is that it would assist in the societal legitimization of permanent, monogamous homosexual relationships and would thus render most homosexuals happier and less stigmatized by those who are currently prejudiced against them.

 

2) However, seeing as the government is unlikely to renounce its power over marriage any time soon, the next best thing that could be done is for this power to be applied as non-intrusively as possible, without the government prying too much into the nature of the marriage, including its composition. Perhaps the amendment proposed by Mr. Rockwell would be a good ultimate solution, while the ability for any two consenting adults to form civil unions would be a good intermediate solution that would incrementally move us in the right direction and perhaps prepare some of the public for the ultimate solution.

 

3) Regarding the “social desirability” arguments, many of these are addressed at those on the religious right who suffer the consequences of the repression of homosexuality. They are displeased that many of their self-proclaimed leaders have turned out to be utter hypocrites at best and child molesters at worst; it is possible that they are displeased with this even more than they might viscerally dislike homosexuality. To convince them to stop diverting their energies toward fighting homosexuality, it is necessary to convince them that not accepting homosexuality would be worse from their point of view. Arguments regarding individual rights and individual happiness would work for Objectivists, libertarians, and many of the “softly” religious. But the more hard-line religious right (some of whose members hold decent economic ideas, by the way) is generally impervious to such arguments. When confronted with them, a religious rightist might say something along the lines of, “Well, it might make some people happy to kill or hurt other people, and surely we cannot permit that!” While this is an incorrect response and one that misunderstands individual rights and rational egoism, many on the religious right are highly attached to that kind of thinking. To convince them of the benefits of a position, one generally needs to argue that it will somehow increase the prevalence of moral behavior in society, however they define moral behavior.

 

4) Moreover, while arguments regarding individual rights and individual happiness suffice to show the necessity of the legal toleration of a practice, they do not necessarily suffice to show the necessity of private social toleration of that practice. Let us say, for instance, that some particularly silly individual gets an emotional high from digging holes in the ground and filling them up again – and this is what he does all day for fun. (He admires the make-work programs from FDR’s New Deal.) He is not coercing anyone, so the law should certainly not impose any restriction on him. Digging the holes makes him happy, and is much better for him and for everyone else than many other things he could be doing, so I probably would not criticize him or encourage him to stop. But would I respect that person as much as I would respect someone with a more productive hobby? Probably not. To argue that a homosexual person should be respected as much as a heterosexual person, all other things being equal, one needs to make a stronger case than the individual rights/individual happiness argument – a case that certain beneficial material consequences accrue to everyone, or at least to some people, from  such treatment. I have tried to make that case here.

 

5) As a rational egoist, I have to ask, what are the benefits for me from the more prevalent social toleration of homosexuals? Fewer perverts, fewer broken relationships, less unstable behavior are outcomes that have repercussions on the ways other people will behave toward me – and these repercussions would be quite beneficial for me, so I support the social toleration of homosexuality.

 

 

Sincerely,
Gennady Stolyarov II

Editor-in-Chief, The Rational Argumentator: http://rationalargumentator.com

Writer, Associated Content: http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/46796/g_stolyarov_ii.html

Author, The Best Self-Help is Free: http://rationalargumentator.com/selfhelpfree.html                           

Author, The Progress of Liberty Blog: http://progressofliberty.today.com/       


Post 7

Sunday, July 6, 2008 - 1:24amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Stolyarov,

You mentioned "the more hard-line religious right..." and I had just finished looking at the YouTube link in Teresa's post.   

Which explains why I suddenly had the most delightful idea... 

Keep in mind that those hard-line evangelicals are unlikely to change one iota from rational persuasion.  So, I propose we interrupt the intellectual inheritence of some of their idiocy.  And here is how:

1) Acquire the email addresses of all of the children of evangelicals, as long as these kids are between the ages of say 14 and 24.

2) Send each of those kids an Ed Current YouTube video link each week (You have to see that little video to appreciate this).  He has made 31 of them at last count.  Well over a years worth at one each week.  No way there wouldn't be a lot of kids no longer going to Daddy's church.

No, I'm not really serious.  I'm not going to spam anyone, but there is a delicious irony somewhere in the liberation of the children of those religious wing-nuts.  That the righteous proponents of forcing Theocracy on us, would suddenly find themselves to be intellectual dinasaurs - made extinct through little 30-second humorous, video emails of a funny atheist. 

It really appeals to the slightly mean-spirited (but justice-loving) curmudgeon in me ;-)


Post 8

Sunday, July 6, 2008 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Wolfer,

Thank you for providing the link to the Edward Current videos - which I greatly enjoyed, as many of the less intelligent religious rightists *do* argue in the manner than Mr. Current mocks. Mr. Current certainly has brilliant satirical skills.

The question of how and why some people change their fundamental metaphysical beliefs is a highly interesting one. I wish I knew more about the process this change takes, so that it would be possible to effectively persuade more people to hold a rational worldview.

I will be attending an economics seminar in the next few days, so I might not have Internet access. But I am unsure regarding this.

Sincerely,
Gennady Stolyarov II

Post 9

Sunday, July 6, 2008 - 10:42amSanction this postReply
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Ted said: "I'd like to hear a positive argument in favor of the legal recognition of gay marriage, assuming that is what you advocate."

While I don't advocate that, since Steve explained my POV well, here's the argument I've heard from gay activists on yet another of those 400+ posts about gay marriage on Reason.com's Hit and Run:

Gays want to be treated equally under the law. They feel they've been treated like second-class citizens. Many would be OK with what Steve suggested, but they feel that will never happen, that social conservatives would kill any such proposal, since such an approach that shrinks government would only work in an extremely "Red" state full of conservatives. And since most conservatives are social conservatives and not libertarian-leaning conservatives, this proposal would get voted down.

So, the only doable approach is to expand the government's power in liberal states like Massachusetts or California and grant government-sanctioned gay marriage rights (but not polygamist marriage rights).

The other argument I've heard on these threads is that Steve's argument is just a smokescreen, a false alternative, a form of hypocrisy or doublethink that allows a person to claim that they support equality for gays while proposing a solution that they know will never happen.

Post 10

Tuesday, July 8, 2008 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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To call atheism a kind of religion is like calling anarchism a type of state or government. A-theism means, literally, against theism, and theism is belief in a supernatural deity, a supreme spiritual being.  Atheists reject such belief as unfounded. It is to commit the fallacy of equivocation to then insist that they are in fact embracing such belief. 

Post 11

Tuesday, July 8, 2008 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
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Atheistic Religion? Bah, Humbug!

Just from the origin of the words, it should be clear that religion and atheism are not inherently contraries. Atheism means nothing more than without god. Religion refers to a set of traditional spiritual (i.e., value-driven) ceremonies, practices or celebrations which may or may not be tied into a belief in a deity. Some sects of Buddhism are considered atheistic, but others do either deify the Buddha or accept the belief in deities. Stoicism and Epicureanism are described as secular religions. Wikipedia says that "according to the Stoics, the universe is a material, reasoning, substance, known as God or Nature," but other Stoic schools deny any personality to nature (Giovanni Reale, Systems of the Hellenistic Age). Spinoza, who is highly spiritual, almost ecstatic, is considered an atheist. Reale describes Epicureanism as a secular religion with its own traditions and holidays.

But, more importantly, examine not the traditions of the East and dead religions of the West, rather consider the living secular religion of America. Consider the oaths of office or of the courtroom. Consider parades. Consider waving and blowing a kiss goodbye. Consider baby showers, graduations, shaking hands on a deal, singing "happy birthday," blowing out candles, giving toasts, handing out cigars, reading bedtime stories, and saying "Gesundheit." Consider shooting off fireworks to celebrate Independence Day. Consider hanging wreaths and flying flags. Consider all the myriad traditional ceremonies we use to add significance to life and its events. Please don't tell me these are not traditions, that they have no spiritual dimension, no connection to our higher values. These are secular ceremonies, our Western or American secular religion, which, if we do it consciously, is the artistic living of life.

I find it funny, almost paranoid, to be afraid of the mere word "religion." (The proper analogy in the objection above would be: "Calling atheism a type of religion is like calling anarchism a kind of politics." Not "a kind of government.") This is a habit of thought that has to be actively examined, not a word that must be reflexively rejected. What matters is not the word, but the underlying thing. "So long as our opponent understands what is the thing of which we are talking, it does not matter to the argument whether the word is or is not the one he would have chosen."

Religion means one thing, God another, supernatural a third, and faith something else again. Even without faith most of us do not lead our lives in a cynical (as in Diogenes) rejection of convention and tradition. We do not refuse to shake hands because monotheists do it. Every family, every couple of long standing has its little traditions. We don't refuse a kiss goodnight because it resembles an unspoken prayer. We do not lovingly say (at least to children) "Birthdays? Bah, humbug!"



(Edited by Ted Keer on 7/09, 5:19am)


Post 12

Tuesday, July 8, 2008 - 9:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Your quote of  Chesterton,
"So long as our opponent understands what is the thing of which we are talking, it does not matter to the argument whether the word is or is not the one he would have chosen."
That is the nub of the argument.  I admire your atttempt to reclaim all that is good in the word "religion" (even if I think you may have gone too broad in your definition) and I loved the prose in your last post, but.... BUT, neither our opponents nor our friends are going to understand YOUR use of the word "religion" at this time unless it is given in the context - so it does matter. 

People in the billions, over time measured in millenia, hold religion in their minds as inseperable from some sort of deity and faith-based beliefs.  When Rand wanted to reclaim "Selfish" and "Capitalism" she made clear her context - in each and every use - so that her opponents did understand.


Post 13

Tuesday, July 8, 2008 - 10:00pmSanction this postReply
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I understand that criticism, Steve. Of course, I had assumed my entire posts had been read on this thread, and that my context here was quite clear. Can anyone suggest a better "external" term? "Secular religion" seems no better. We do need a name for the phenomena which I mentioned. And I still think that it is both appropriate and desirable to reclaim the term within the movement.

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Post 14

Wednesday, July 9, 2008 - 12:02amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I can't think of a better term at this time - I'd like to have one. 

But many times I have thought that it would be helpful to bring something into the arena of Objectivist interactions and, more importantly, into the broader culture - a kind of secular religion cast as social organizations (obviously I'm only talking of something entirely free of faith and mysticism).

Something that provided rituals that symbolized rational values of the highest order, that shared exhaltation of a common bond in the most deeply held of values, a social context for sharing our passions (which instead too often appear in attacks on one another), a concrete address where other kinds of meetings, activities could spring from. 

Our philosophical beliefs focus us on the individual, as they should, but social activities that let us share the emotional joy of these beliefs are rarely pursued except by accident.  As a movement and as creatures who can enjoy the company of others who share our beliefs, we Objectivists are lacking.  Why are our interactions so like the image of porcupines trying to cuddle?  Or, maybe it is better to ask, what kind of institution or organization could arise to facilitate robust, regularly held, social celebrations of the joys of reason, liberty, courage, honor, and good will?  Existing religions continue to exist for many reasons, despite irrational beliefs, and one empowering feature is found in their temples, synagoges, and churches where the powerful emotional aspect of being human is entrained with a shared belief system.

I remember, as a child, hating church when my parent took me - but I have always liked seeing the joy on the faces of people who congregate in that kind of environment.  We need a secular church for many reasons - not just as a feel good place that helps to make concrete and shared what otherwise is usually abstract and solitary,  to enhance the experiential reward of our intellectual beliefs, as a point of dissemination of rational values and ethics - to bring others into the fold of rationality and to facilitate passing it on to succeeding generations. 

We all know that Western culture is endangered by the growing ethical vacuum that is left as religion diminishes as an authority while so few are choosing a rational ethical base to replace it.  And we all know that none of the other popular cultures (Eastern, Islamic, etc.) would be anything but worse.  We would benefit so much by adding cultural structure for that critical task of sustaining and passing on to the next generation a rational morality.  Look at it this way, the very forum  you and I now share is a structure that facilitates both our pleasure of interaction and the spread of our ideas.  But a forum's very nature keeps it from doing all that a 'church' can do and the core beliefs of Objectivism deserve different structures serving different purposes.

Without this, as a psychologist and cultural observer, I fear that that neither the educational institutions (even without the many flaws they currently have), nor the parent-to-child transmissions can ever be enough to bind in rational beliefs, passionately and effectively, and over the breadth of our culture. 

Our individualism and our intellectual approach to life make this kind of pursuit less obvious and perhaps more difficult.  I think that without the rise of organizations of this sort, we may remain a small, out of power, group of intellectual elites living in hostile cultures - even though our ideas should be the heartstone of the masses as well. 


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Post 15

Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 4:34amSanction this postReply
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SW wrote:

Our individualism and our intellectual approach to life make this kind of pursuit less obvious and perhaps more difficult.  I think that without the rise of organizations of this sort, we may remain a small, out of power, group of intellectual elites living in hostile cultures - even though our ideas should be the heartstone of the masses as well.

http://www.propelobjectivism.com


Post 16

Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 2:21pmSanction this postReply
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My thanks to Luke for his efforts.

Steve, There was an an atheist Randian synagog in the Chicago area, I seem to recall.

Organized religion does have an attractiveness for some, moreso those who went to church as children, and especially those who weren't traumatized out of their beliefs. Starting such a church out of the blue would be difficult without any rationale. It would seem arbitrary. A simple social club like the apparently defunct NYC Objectivist Salon would have its attractions, with the possibility of a semi-formalized setting and traditions. Most cultural traditions have religious origins, such as classical music and drama's origin in Greek cults and the morality plays of the Middle Ages. The wedding cake (confarreatio) and perhaps even shaking hands trace back to pagan ceremonies. Since song has such a spiritual and social power, even simply singing the national anthem, as my uncle had done at our our family reunion can be moving and meaningful. Tributes such as the shrines of flowers left for Princess Diana show that people spontaneously adopt practises to show their reverence for things not large than but rather as large as life. As Rand (our prophet and patron saint) said, it is quite possible and good for people to celebrate such holidays as Christmas for what they have become, not for their purported meanings. Even Christmas was stolen from the Pagan Yule and Saturnalia. I gave a best-man speech at my Sister's wedding. I used Rand's analysis of the meaning of art as applied to public affirmations such as weddings. I didn't have to mention Rand or selfishness. Several people told me it was the best speech of that sort they had ever heard. Objectivists can and should shamelessly adopt such occasions in our own way.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 7/12, 4:11pm)


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