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Post 0

Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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The statists I've talked to generally rationalize initiating force by thinking it's different when government agents do something on their behalf that they would be appalled at doing personally.

That, and papering over the policies they support with euphemisms.

Post 1

Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

The problem that I have is that you use the word "statist" to mean anyone who is not an anarchist. Unless you have changed how you are using that word, that includes me, Ayn Rand, Dr. Machan... everyone that supports minarchy - and lumps us in with supporters of communism, socialism, etc. That makes it a problem to keep in mind "Jim's meanings" before replying to a post of yours.

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Post 2

Friday, June 25, 2010 - 8:19amSanction this postReply
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Tibor:

Your argument is thoroughly founded in the realm of 'should be' and in that context, I would agree.

But in the context of what is, I've reached another conclusion. The nature of force is, it doesn't require agreement or consent or sanction; it just is.

Crime will always be easier than calculus. Crime not only pays, it pays damn well. The power of attraction of crime/force/megapolitics as a shortcut to politics is unmistakable because of its efficacy, and its impact is out of all proportion to the number of practitioners who access it as a means to ends. We are partially lied to, as part of an attempt at indoctrination. We are told as children "crime does not pay." That is a partial and incomplete truth, because by itself, crime not only pays, it pays damn well, that is the problem. Crime only does not pay when others band together and exact an artificially imposed price for crime, and that concerted effort requires the use of reasoned force and reasoned coercion, and it is that use of reasoned force and reasoned coercion that demands our consent.

Even in a nearly utopic world, where 99.999% of educated folks agree with the sense of your 'should be,' the impact of the inevitable and unavoiadable .001% will be far in excess of their numbers, precisely because they access force, violence, and megapolitics as a multiplier.

My conclusion, which may not be yours, is the following: in the world of what is and can realistically be, force and coercion will be used. So the question facing us is not 'should force and coercion be used?' It will be, with or without our agreement, that is what makes it force and coercion. The only question that remains for each of us, unavoidable, is, to what ends and by what means and for what purposes will we sanction the use of force and coercion.

Turning our back and refusing to choose is moot and welcomed by those who will yet use force and coercion in the name of our local political context.

In fairness, I assume that by 'coercion' you don't mean the concept of Superior Violence described above, you mean the kind of activist coercion exerted by government to constructivistly build "S"ociety and engineer outcomes. But, they do overlap, when the definition of 'crimes' justifying coercion are allowed to sloppily transcend actual instances of the first use of coercion against others, and encompass 'political outcomes that some don't like..." In an activist regime, where folks won't let a 'crisis' go by without putting it to good use to mask the murky projection of political coercion, it is easy for the nation to lose sight of the principles being applied.

For example, BP running into a technological problem a mile underwater(where they were coerced in some fashion to operate)is not a 'crime', and yet the activists are responding as if it were. Was there a 'permit' unsigned by the proper 'authority?' Were they wildcat drilling a mile underwater? "Permits" and "authority" mean nothing if, when an inevitable problem occurs, the function in life of those permit granting authorities is to shrilly scream 'they did it!' and use it only as an excuse to exert more coercion in the economies, plural.

regards,
Fred

Post 3

Saturday, June 26, 2010 - 12:03pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, when I use the term "statists", I'm referring to people who habitually rely on government coercion for "solutions" to "problems". I regard minarchists as people who are largely freedom-loving but who hold a few statist beliefs that they don't think are statist beliefs. Thus, I do not regard minarchists as statists, any more than I would regard a thin person who generally eats healthy foods but occasionally binges on ice cream as a glutton.

Post 4

Saturday, June 26, 2010 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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Jim, you have referred to me as a "statist" in the past. Since my position in this area is identical to Ayn Rand's which is why I made that post, I assume you have either changed your position, or aren't being consistent in how you use that word.

I'll just remind you that 'statism' is a word with an accepted meaning. Here is what Wikipedia has:
Statism is a term assigned to political movements and trends that are seen as supporting the use of states to achieve goals, both economic and social. Economic statism, for instance, promotes the view that the state has a major and legitimate role in directing the economy, either directly through state-owned enterprises and other types of machinery of government, or indirectly through economic planning. It may refer to the ideology of statism that holds that:

Sovereignty is vested not in the people but in the national state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, the prestige, and the well-being of the state. The concept of statism, which as seen as synonymous with the concept of nation, and corporatism repudiates individualism and exalts the nation as an organic body headed by the Supreme Leader and nurtured by unity, force, and discipline.
Ayn Rand, other minarchists, and I all hold that the government should play no part at all in the economy and that the individual is sovereign - not the state.

I prefer her definition of statism:
The political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man’s life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, the nation—and that the state may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good.
A statist is a statist because they believe that man does not own his own life and that the state has the moral right to do what it wishes with him. If a person advocates for individual rights they cannot be a statist. Words need to be used in ways that don't violate their essential, defining characteristics. Your way of using that word would make Ronald Reagan a socialist because he supported Social Security, a Nazi because he supported regulation in some areas, and an anarchist because there were areas where thought there should be no government.




Post 5

Thursday, July 1, 2010 - 6:53amSanction this postReply
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Of course force "just is," but it need not be. An overwhelming number of human relationships and instances of human interaction are quite peaceful, although the daily news rarely pays attention to this fact. ("Flash: Hundred thousand people got home without being assaulted!")

Post 6

Thursday, July 1, 2010 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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machan,

I'd think that 'force need not be' seems rather moot when in the balance 'force just is' is clearly the common circumstance - most particularly in politics and government. I know Rand agreed that self defense is an acceptable logical response to unwanted force. In essence, self defense is one's counter-force.

What might be justified as a counter-force to the powers creating bad regulations and laws? Of course, our Constitution is meant to fulfill this role, but we see how it has been deconstructed over the years.

I've felt for years that since we are not able to stop the creation of more regulations, that we should fight instead to instill principles that would govern the nature of what regulations could and could not address - i.e. a defensive regulation to limit and govern the content of all other regulations. A hair of the dog... fighting regulations with regulation.


jt
(Edited by Jay Abbott on 7/01, 7:36pm)


Post 7

Friday, July 2, 2010 - 3:57amSanction this postReply
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I was replying to Fred Bartlett's comment. Yes, there is lots of coercive force, a good deal of defensive force but a whole lot more peaceful interaction among people than is taken note of in the news.

Post 8

Friday, July 2, 2010 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
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Prof. Machan:

I agree -- and agreed -- there might even by a large majority of peaceful, reasonable interactions among reasonable folks. Not the point I was making. I will repeat it:

Even in a nearly utopic world, where 99.999% of educated folks agree with the sense of your 'should be,' the impact of the inevitable and unavoiadable .001% will be far in excess of their numbers, precisely because they access force, violence, and megapolitics as a multiplier.

The 99.999% (the actual majority % is not the point), no matter what their personal reasonable behavior is, yet have a need to acknowledge the terms under which they will sanction the use of force, precisely because of the inevitability of the .001% and the multiplier, leveraging effect of the first us of force.

The 'reasonable' 99.999% cannot unilaterally turn their back on all use of force, they must 'reasonably' address the concept of Superior Violence(violence projected in response to the first use of violence.)

What use of force will the 99.999% sanction? If 'None, under any circumstances whatsoever,' then they are simply abdicating the world to those who will. They can scream 'should not' at the top of their lungs, and clutch their 'should be's' to their chest, even as they are forcefully run over by the unsanctioned first use of force, but the ultimate enforcer of their 'should not' and 'should be' is in fact force, or nothing; that is the nature of force, in the Universe, as it is. If force is going to be no matter what, then it it is reasonable that it be fettered as sanctioned force.

Violent offenders are not 'asked' to cease, They are not asked to go to jail. They are not 'requested' to cease the first use of force. They just 'do,' ... and are responded to with Superior Violence.

They are not acting reasonably when they do so. The question is, would the 99.999% be responding reasonably if they failed to respond with any sanctioned use of force at all?

I don't think so, it is the nature of force/violence that it is not unilaterally wished away without the use of force/violence. The Paradox of Violence, I don't believe, can be unilaterally repealed by the 99.999%. Force/brute power, in the Universe, as it is, can't be blinked out of existence.

What it is reasonable to do is, to reasonably build a fence around its use, and clearly define what the sanctioned use of force is and what it isn't.

Including, the use of the biggest force in the Jungle, the slobbering power of all of us over any of us. God help us all if the sanction for that is simply a counting of heads in the mob exerting the force.

regards,
Fred

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Post 9

Friday, July 2, 2010 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Prof. Machan:

For my money coercive force is not only when someone threatens to beat up or kill another unless that other does as told. I start much earlier, when someone presumes to have the authority to entice or nudge his or her fellow human beings to do as told (hoped for)!

Or, much worse in our modern political climate. We start out with a more or less clear, reasonable fence around the state use of force -- to prevent, inhibit the use of force where 'someone threatened to beat up or kill another unless that other does as told.' A sanctioned use of state power to 'inhibit crime.' Superior Violence, what I argued for above as a reasonable (and required) fence around the use of state power.

The freedom eating process is the sloppy maintainance of that fence, the one that permits the wild and woooly definition of 'crime' as 'political/economic outcomes that some don't like.'

or "when someone presumes to have the authority to entice or nudge his or her fellow human beings to do as told (hoped for.)"

I totally agree that the latter abuse of state power is a freedom eating disease.

I don't agree that the solution is to get rid of the fence, nor unilaterally attempt to repeal its contents; my argument is that its contents exist, with or without our sanction or agreement or attempts to reasonably fetter it. I think what is needed to form a more perfect union is to sharpen up the definition of the fence, to politically repair it, to politically constrict it, to politically reduce its range of action to what is reasonable in a free state--even as others work politically to expand it.

State force, like all force, doesn't require our sanction to exist, it just exists. The overwhelming force of all of us over any of us is an unavoidable fact, not to be wished away.

There is no likely megapolitical battlefield in America on which the struggle to re-position that fence is going to be fought. That leaves only a political struggle to re-position it. Let's not forget that it was a political effort to expand it, political re-adjustment is not an impossibility.

Look at how it is used, and abused, by both parties of power. I think this is 'advantage libertarians', even as they fail to garner significant numbers. The reason is, the inevitable grounding of monopolistic, single point of failure systems. Whenever our massive Ship of State is unfettered and permitted to get up a head of steam in any one 'the' direction, the resulting heavy handed, fat fingered failures severely dampen the nation's enthusiasm for American Totalitarianism. That is the cycle we are in now, and there will be an adjustment, a culling of enthusiasm for bloated Barney Frank inspired constructivist solutions.

They are at the end of their brief run in the light of day, enjoying the last train out of FDR station, doing what final damage they can while they are still in power. The combination of their hubris, ineptitude, and naivete always eventually does them in.

Not many years from now, if we are very lucky, the terms 'Obama' and 'Barney Frank' will be unflattering verbs.

Used in a sentence: "Thelma and Louise Obama'd that convertible right into the desert floor, and looked damn good doing it, too, right up until the moment of impact."

regards,
Fred




Post 10

Friday, July 2, 2010 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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The original 'The Day The Earth Stood Still', from the 50's, was the classic movie painting a theoretical picture of how the Paradox of Violence might function in a utopic vision of civilization: an advanced civilization has addressed the issue of state violence by creating 'perfect' machines(utopia always requires some perfect element, in this case, a literal deus ex machina, a machine like robot.) These perfect machines -- Gort -- are coldly judge, jury, and executioners, programmed(there is the fatal flaw in this plan...)to do one thing: respond to the first use of violence with overwhelming violence, literally, by vaporizing the offender. In that civilization, people have learned the absolute of why 'crime does not pay,' and have adapted to a paradigm that trivially avoids the wrath of the local GORTS: never project the first use of violence. Easy to implement, trivial to avoid the consequences.

This advanced civilization has taken notice of earth's development of nukes, and shows up to fire a warning shot across our bow; the neighborhood will respond with overwhelming force if we get too jiggy with our new found technological power. They demonstrate their ability to enforce their policy via Gort, coupled with a short duration shut down of all the technology on earth, a kind of harmless demonstration -- to prove they could enforce their policy. The equivalent of Truman exploding the first atom bomb in Tokyo Bay, which was not our choice.

So, that is the utopic work of provocative 50's romantic art. Reality is, our politically driven state. It is as if we actually have a GORT -- our powerful state, but instead of 'perfect, utopic flawless programming -- a perfect machine that always gets it right, and simply responds to whatever it perceives as the first use of violence -- our imperfect state GORT has naked, sweaty apes crawling all over it, whispering suggestions into GORT's ear that mere political/economic outcomes are the equivalent of first use of violence, justifying the direction of overwhelming state power for any willy-nilly political whim that the local weight of naked sweaty apes can dream up.

A political game that permits that is in no rational persons' best interest; only naked, sweaty apes that are overcome with the thought "we could get away with this" -- and who find that too irresistible a shortcut to political persuasion -- could possibly sanction that game, of whispering into GORT's ear and justifying the use of that power to coerce for other than the clearly defined first use of violence.

How do they justify it? On moral grounds? On religious grounds? For what they sanction themselves as their really, really good cause? For the good of the victims? Based on a free-for-some, the eating of the few for the benefit of the many?

Well, the Senate is about to install one of those Ivy League instructed justifiers into the Supreme Court.

It is on university campuses where these justifiers are bred, but it is also IBM lobbying Moynihan for special dispensation in the 80s, ultimately resulting in some poor bastard flying an airplane into an IRS building in an impotent rage as a result. The directions from which those naked sweaty apes crawl up and over our state GORT are not just from the left.

GORT isn't a hypothetical; our state is GORT. What is scary about reality is, our GORT is missing the 'perfect programming' from that utopic work of romantic art. Our GORT is fettered only by a graceless, clawing political mess, by imperfect naked sweaty apes crawling all over him and whispering in his ear for the latest really, really good cause.

When do the adults rush in to this out of all control process and demand a 'time-out' from all the graceless, clawing, political free-for-some?

regards,
Freed

Post 11

Sunday, July 4, 2010 - 12:19amSanction this postReply
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Never argued against "the fence," so I don't get the point, sorry.

Post 12

Monday, July 5, 2010 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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Prof Machan:

Never argued against "the fence," so I don't get the point, sorry.

No apology necessary. What I said was:

I don't agree that the solution is to get rid of the fence, nor unilaterally attempt to repeal its contents;


There is no point in claiming you support 'the fence,' if you believe that the fence encircles nothing. The title of your piece is "No Excuse for Coercion," and that is what I responded to.

My argument is that we have no rational choice except to deal with the fence and what it surrounds, not suggest that we can unilaterally blink it out of existence, or suggest that the fence surrounds something for which there is 'no excuse.' That is, to open our eyes wider, not close them, when considering the fact of coercion in the universe, as it is, and how it impacts the political context we choose to support or desire to change.

I disagree with the title you chose for your piece, not your primary point. But, the title of your piece should be your primary point, and I would think, in some way is your primary point, or you'd have chosen another title.

regards,
Fred

P.S.: I've never been accused of writing clearly: the contents of the fence is "State Coercion for Which There Should Be A Sanctioned Excuse." Which is other than "No Excuse..."


(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 7/05, 8:32am)


Post 13

Thursday, July 8, 2010 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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Well, titles are mere indicators but I do like mine here: No excuse for coercion is right. Coercion is inexcusable.



Post 14

Friday, July 9, 2010 - 6:23amSanction this postReply
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So, it's a fence around nothing.

Courts/jails are inexcusable? Or, just the freedom restricting locks on jails?

We should only ask folks to show up to court/jail?

"Please show up at court/jail tomorrow."

"No, thank-you."

"Sorry to bother you, I don't know what I was thinking."

or...no excuse for what actually follows?

Or, is it that you find the fact that otherwise reasonable folks -- 99% of the population -- needs to reasonably respond with coercive cops, courts and jails, purely because of a fringe 1% or so, that is 'inexcusable' -- an indictment of the imperfection of the population, a lament that we don't live in a 100% reasonable utopia?

If so, I think there is a reason for that 1%, and it is the undeniable calculus that crime is easier than calculus, that crime not only pays, it pays damn well and does not wait for any excuses, unless...

regards,
Fred

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